Johnnie Cake Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me Edited July 14, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 Topic being discussed here: don't be surprised if this thread gets closed
rodheadlee Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me No, does this include the Bishop's warehouse? My wife worked there for a bit and an amazing amount of goods went through there. 1
Thinking Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me I am not surprised. If the estimates are correct and there are 5 million active LDS, that amounts to $8 per active member. That's $48 per year for a family with 4 children. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 27 minutes ago, Thinking said: I am not surprised. If the estimates are correct and there are 5 million active LDS, that amounts to $8 per active member. That's $48 per year for a family with 4 children. The LDS Church also has property and business holdings which are lucrative. Members contributions are invested and used wisely. The humanitarian aid which each member can give on a tithing form is not spread evenly throughout the membership. Some members donate a lot of their disposable wealth, as well as donating their time and talents. That all counts into the total. Moreover, many members also give to other, non-LDS charities. Indeed, Mormons give a higher percentage of their income to charity per capita than any other religious group. See my “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures . 3
Popular Post Garden Girl Posted July 14, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Thinking said: I am not surprised. If the estimates are correct and there are 5 million active LDS, that amounts to $8 per active member. That's $48 per year for a family with 4 children. No, it does not surprise me... what surprises me is the lengths our critics will go with their attempt to discredit the Church at every opportunity, and the misrepresentation or twisting or outright lying about facts. As someone who remembers being on Church welfare as a child for several months, I can attest that we received quite a bit more that $48 for a family of three... My mom was a divorced mom (at a time when divorced women were looked down upon... 1942... ), only a high school education, trying to raise her two little girls ages 3 and 6 with no help from our deadbeat dad who hid from her so he couldn't be made to pay child support, when she finally had to turn to the Church for help. To this day, 73 years later, I still remember the Deseret Truck, with the picture of the beehive on the side, rolling down our driveway... and two kind men unloading food, blankets, quilts, and other supplies... and my mom crying... Then, the Church helped her find a good job as a receptionist in a doctor's office, and to get on her feet. When we were doing well, and she was able to provide for us, we went off of Church welfare... but the experience of those months has always stayed with me, and the memory of the kindness and help we received. So I say to you, Thinking, I think it's really sad that you find it necessary to so blatantly misrepresent the Church and it's humanitarian efforts even though you (and we) know your statement is nonsense and without basis. But knowing this, you choose to do so anyway... and in doing so you only discredit yourself not the Church... GG 6
Teancum Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me I can't imagine thqt number includes fast offering assistance. As a bishop I routinely had about $40k per year of assistance given. Now maybe our Ward had lots in need but we were average for our stake. So even half that number and multiply it by all the wards n the world and you get a pretty large number. 3
HappyJackWagon Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Garden Girl said: No, it does not surprise me... what surprises me is the lengths our critics will go with their attempt to discredit the Church at every opportunity, and the misrepresentation or twisting or outright lying about facts. As someone who remembers being on Church welfare as a child for several months, I can attest that we received quite a bit more that $48 for a family of three... My mom was a divorced mom (at a time when divorced women were looked down upon... 1942... ), only a high school education, trying to raise her two little girls ages 3 and 6 with no help from our deadbeat dad who hid from her so he couldn't be made to pay child support, when she finally had to turn to the Church for help. To this day, 73 years later, I still remember the Deseret Truck, with the picture of the beehive on the side, rolling down our driveway... and two kind men unloading food, blankets, quilts, and other supplies... and my mom crying... Then, the Church helped her find a good job as a receptionist in a doctor's office, and to get on her feet. When we were doing well, and she was able to provide for us, we went off of Church welfare... but the experience of those months has always stayed with me, and the memory of the kindness and help we received. So I say to you, Thinking, I think it's really sad that you find it necessary to so blatantly misrepresent the Church and it's humanitarian efforts even though you (and we) know your statement is nonsense and without basis. But knowing this, you choose to do so anyway... and in doing so you only discredit yourself not the Church... GG You must not understand that Thinking was estimating on averages. Not sure what you're so upset about here but your angry attack seems misplaced. On the other hand, if the church was transparent with its finances there wouldn't be any need to guess or estimate. $40 million in donations is a big number and I have no doubt that $40 million does a great deal of good. What is unclear is the percentage of income the church donates. It appears to be much less than 1%. It's also interesting to note that the church has been consistent in averaging $40 million each year for the past 30 years. It would seem $40 million in 1986 would go a bit farther than in 2016. Incomes are up. Membership is up. Presumably donations into the church are up. But the welfare and humanitarian aid paid out by the church has remained the same. That seems strange to me. 3
Popular Post jkwilliams Posted July 14, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Garden Girl said: No, it does not surprise me... what surprises me is the lengths our critics will go with their attempt to discredit the Church at every opportunity, and the misrepresentation or twisting or outright lying about facts. As someone who remembers being on Church welfare as a child for several months, I can attest that we received quite a bit more that $48 for a family of three... My mom was a divorced mom (at a time when divorced women were looked down upon... 1942... ), only a high school education, trying to raise her two little girls ages 3 and 6 with no help from our deadbeat dad who hid from her so he couldn't be made to pay child support, when she finally had to turn to the Church for help. To this day, 73 years later, I still remember the Deseret Truck, with the picture of the beehive on the side, rolling down our driveway... and two kind men unloading food, blankets, quilts, and other supplies... and my mom crying... Then, the Church helped her find a good job as a receptionist in a doctor's office, and to get on her feet. When we were doing well, and she was able to provide for us, we went off of Church welfare... but the experience of those months has always stayed with me, and the memory of the kindness and help we received. So I say to you, Thinking, I think it's really sad that you find it necessary to so blatantly misrepresent the Church and it's humanitarian efforts even though you (and we) know your statement is nonsense and without basis. But knowing this, you choose to do so anyway... and in doing so you only discredit yourself not the Church... GG When we lived in Houston about 13 years ago, I was laid off and out of work for about 6 weeks. The severance was 3 weeks' pay. With 6 kids, a mortgage, and a car payment, I was pretty stressed out, especially since it was the first time I'd ever been out of work. A couple of days later, one of my good friends, who was in the bishopric, approached me at church and said I looked like something was wrong. I told him about the job loss, and he said I needed to get a food order from the bishop's storehouse. I wasn't offended, but I was a little startled and sort of laughed it off. That afternoon, the doorbell rang, and it was the bishop, who insisted that we get food from the bishop's storehouse. I told him we had enough money for now, but he said, "Your money will go farther if you don't have to spend it on food. If you're out of work for more than a few weeks, you're going to need that money for other things." We reluctantly accepted, and we had plenty of food those six weeks. Had we not accepted the help, we might have had to use our savings to stay afloat. So, having been the recipient of help from the church both in that direct way and through countless times when ward members served and took care of us, I give the church a lot of respect for its welfare and service programs. When I was young, my parents had one rather awful experience with help being explicitly denied when it was needed, but I chalk that up to a clueless bishop, not an institutional failing. 5
Tacenda Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The LDS Church also has property and business holdings which are lucrative. Members contributions are invested and used wisely. The humanitarian aid which each member can give on a tithing form is not spread evenly throughout the membership. Some members donate a lot of their disposable wealth, as well as donating their time and talents. That all counts into the total. Moreover, many members also give to other, non-LDS charities. Indeed, Mormons give a higher percentage of their income to charity per capita than any other religious group. See my “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures . I believe that is because they are paying their tithing, because it's considered a charity. So IMO, that's why it is the highest. In my experience members pay the majority to tithing with the belief that it is going to help with humanitarian. But if the numbers are correct and it only ends up being a small amount per member, they may need to look for other charities besides the church to give to.
Gray Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I believe that is because they are paying their tithing, because it's considered a charity. So IMO, that's why it is the highest. In my experience members pay the majority to tithing with the belief that it is going to help with humanitarian. But if the numbers are correct and it only ends up being a small amount per member, they may need to look for other charities besides the church to give to. Unfortunately tithing represents a huge chunk out of many people's discretionary income. They don't have much left over to give to philanthropy. 1
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me I think the surprise for me comes up when you consider previously it was reported the amount donated averaged out to be more than that. Something about 1.4 billion over 25 years. This would be less than that, if it is 40 million per year for 25 years, that's just 1 billion. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/welfare/2011-welfare-services-fact-sheet.pdf But it's possible the Church gave more than the 40 million in the 80s. If so, then 40 million in '89 would have gone a lot further than 40 million today, which may suggest the Church is giving less today than it used to. That'd be a shame.
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Teancum said: I can't imagine thqt number includes fast offering assistance. As a bishop I routinely had about $40k per year of assistance given. Now maybe our Ward had lots in need but we were average for our stake. So even half that number and multiply it by all the wards n the world and you get a pretty large number. Wow...your ward gave a lot.
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 9 hours ago, Thinking said: I am not surprised. If the estimates are correct and there are 5 million active LDS, that amounts to $8 per active member. That's $48 per year for a family with 4 children. That's the size of my family. if only 48 of our donated dollars goes to welfare, well, that'd be too bad. That is far less than 1%. That's a little discouraging, particularly if fast offerings and the donation there are factored in. I was under the impression all of our fast offerings went to welfare purposes.
thesometimesaint Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, Gray said: Unfortunately tithing represents a huge chunk out of many people's discretionary income. They don't have much left over to give to philanthropy. 10% isn't a huge chunk of anything. Especially since we are commanded to give everything that we own or will own to the building up of Gods' kingdom.
Gray Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: 10% isn't a huge chunk of anything. Especially since we are commanded to give everything that we own or will own to the building up of Gods' kingdom. It's not a huge chunk when you're a kid and have no bills. When you're a grown-up and have car payments and mortgage payments and student loan debt, suddenly 10% is almost everything. Once your career gets better and your salary gets closer to six figures, you can pay tithing and have something left over. But if you're making 50k or less, tithing can wipe you out. Maybe that's why so many members of the church tend to go for lucrative professions. Edited July 14, 2016 by Gray
thesometimesaint Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, Gray said: It's not a huge chunk when you're a kid and have no bills. When you're a grown-up and have car payments and mortgage payments and student loan debt, suddenly 10% is almost everything. Once your career gets better and your salary gets closer to six figures, you can pay tithing and have something left over. But if you're making 50k or less, tithing can wipe you out. Maybe that's why so many members of the church tend to go for lucrative professions. I'm 65 years old, have paid off 8 cars of my own, and the first car for my children. I also paid off my 30 year mortgage in less than 20 years. Paid off my student loan debt in less than two years. ALL while paying Tithing, Fast Offerings, paying for Missions, The Perpetual Education Fund, Ward Missionary Fund, various charitable Fasts, and other non Church related charities, and other worthy causes. I'm far from rich, but and well blessed. 2
Gray Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I'm 65 years old, have paid off 8 cars of my own, and the first car for my children. I also paid off my 30 year mortgage in less than 20 years. Paid off my student loan debt in less than two years. ALL while paying Tithing, Fast Offerings, paying for Missions, The Perpetual Education Fund, Ward Missionary Fund, various charitable Fasts, and other non Church related charities, and other worthy causes. I'm far from rich, but and well blessed. I'm happy for you 1
Jeanne Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: Unfortunately tithing represents a huge chunk out of many people's discretionary income. They don't have much left over to give to philanthropy. This is true. I have a friend that was in dire straits because of medical issues. She did not pay tithing for a while..the Bishop called her in and told her to pay tithing before the rent. She ended up having to move..but hey..tithing was paid.
thesometimesaint Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This is true. I have a friend that was in dire straits because of medical issues. She did not pay tithing for a while..the Bishop called her in and told her to pay tithing before the rent. She ended up having to move..but hey..tithing was paid. How is the Church responsible for this lady not having sufficient medical insurance?
Jeanne Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: How is the Church responsible for this lady not having sufficient medical insurance? They are not responsible. She is. Though she had insurance, it wasn't going to cover everything and meds were extremely expensive. With one income, the Bishop's response was to start paying tithing again and pay it first. But she was told to contact the Bishop for help. Whatever...I guess the church should only help after "all they can do"...in any case, she found out the hard way. She is responsible and will not ask for help ever again. Edited July 14, 2016 by Jeanne
RevTestament Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Garden Girl said: No, it does not surprise me... what surprises me is the lengths our critics will go with their attempt to discredit the Church at every opportunity, and the misrepresentation or twisting or outright lying about facts. As someone who remembers being on Church welfare as a child for several months, I can attest that we received quite a bit more that $48 for a family of three... My mom was a divorced mom (at a time when divorced women were looked down upon... 1942... ), only a high school education, trying to raise her two little girls ages 3 and 6 with no help from our deadbeat dad who hid from her so he couldn't be made to pay child support, when she finally had to turn to the Church for help. To this day, 73 years later, I still remember the Deseret Truck, with the picture of the beehive on the side, rolling down our driveway... and two kind men unloading food, blankets, quilts, and other supplies... and my mom crying... Then, the Church helped her find a good job as a receptionist in a doctor's office, and to get on her feet. When we were doing well, and she was able to provide for us, we went off of Church welfare... but the experience of those months has always stayed with me, and the memory of the kindness and help we received. So I say to you, Thinking, I think it's really sad that you find it necessary to so blatantly misrepresent the Church and it's humanitarian efforts even though you (and we) know your statement is nonsense and without basis. But knowing this, you choose to do so anyway... and in doing so you only discredit yourself not the Church... GG Thinking was in no way misrepresenting the Church. Thinking was estimating donations per capita - not receipts by the needy. However, his figure only estimates based on actual aid provided and not actual donations for charitable aid. I know our fast offerings average much more than 8 dollars per year for each of our family members. We give that much in two months. However I do not know what the rest of the church averages in fast offerings.
thesometimesaint Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 18 minutes ago, Jeanne said: They are not responsible. She is. Though she had insurance, it wasn't going to cover everything and meds were extremely expensive. With one income, the Bishop's response was to start paying tithing again and pay it first. But she was told to contact the Bishop for help. Whatever...I guess the church should only help after "all they can do"...in any case, she found out the hard way. She is responsible and will not ask for help ever again. That doesn't answer the question. Getting food from the Bishop Storehouse would have freed up more funds for her to help pay for her medical insurance. Plus there is other help available. BTW We are required to do all we can do, but there is no requirement we run faster than we are able.
Thinking Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Garden Girl said: So I say to you, Thinking, I think it's really sad that you find it necessary to so blatantly misrepresent the Church and it's humanitarian efforts even though you (and we) know your statement is nonsense and without basis. But knowing this, you choose to do so anyway... and in doing so you only discredit yourself not the Church... I was not being critical, just doing the math to show that $40 million is a very reasonable claim.
Jeanne Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said: That doesn't answer the question. Getting food from the Bishop Storehouse would have freed up more funds for her to help pay for her medical insurance. Plus there is other help available. BTW We are required to do all we can do, but there is no requirement we run faster than we are able. I agree with what you say and what I understand as a former member. But the bishop did not offer help other than for her to pay her tithing. She lost her apartment and moved on.
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