Thinking Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: That's the size of my family. if only 48 of our donated dollars goes to welfare, well, that'd be too bad. That is far less than 1%. That's a little discouraging, particularly if fast offerings and the donation there are factored in. I was under the impression all of our fast offerings went to welfare purposes. I believe that welfare given to members is not included in the amount given for humanitarian aid. 1
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Thinking said: I believe that welfare given to members is not included in the amount given for humanitarian aid. That's good to hear. I was a little concerned.
RevTestament Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 10 minutes ago, Thinking said: I believe that welfare given to members is not included in the amount given for humanitarian aid. the church figures may also be for the value of the aid provided, and not represent the total cost of providing the aid such as salaries 2 workers at dairy farms and other Church properties used to provide the aid.
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I believe that is because they are paying their tithing, because it's considered a charity. So IMO, that's why it is the highest. Actually iirc, there was one study demonstrating that even after removing church donations, LDS were highest. Could be the constant encouragement to donate extends the behaviour to donate. I will try and find the studybI am thinking of if it isn't posted already. You should find evidence that it includes the Church if you want to make that claim, btw. 1
mrmarklin Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: In a new DesNews article Elder Oaks reveals that the church donates $40 million a year in welfare & humanitarian aid. Does this surprise anyone? It does me This does not surprise me. Does he specify whether or not this includes the efforts the church makes with its own welfare program for the members? Since no one really knows the Church's total income, this seems a reasonable effort.. Even more so if it goes outside the church to others. Remember, although the amount seems small relative to the estimated gross income by some of you the church as a lot of expenses with its total programs! Running the temples, all the chapels and a gigantic building program together with a fairly large bureaucracy to deal with all that must suck up huge amounts of $$$$$. Relative to net $40MM is probably relatively large.
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 26 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I agree with what you say and what I understand as a former member. But the bishop did not offer help other than for her to pay her tithing. She lost her apartment and moved on. Did she ask?
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, mrmarklin said: Remember, although the amount seems small relative to the estimated gross income by some of you the church as a lot of expenses with its total programs! Running the temples, all the chapels and a gigantic building program together with a fairly large bureaucracy to deal with all that must suck up huge amounts of $$$$$. Relative to net $40MM is probably relatively large. Missionary work and the education system are probably huge expenses as well.
Jeanne Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: Did she ask? She asked if there was help available for her..and he told her to begin paying tithing.
ksfisher Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Calm said: Actually iirc, there was one study demonstrating that even after removing church donations, LDS were highest. Could be the constant encouragement to donate extends the behaviour to donate. I will try and find the studybI am thinking of if it isn't posted already. You should find evidence that it includes the Church if you want to make that claim, btw. Some of what your are saying is written about here. http://americamagazine.org/issue/5136/columns/mormons-and-charity Ram A. Cnaan, a renowned Israeli-born social-work scholar at the University of Pennsylvania, the study concludes that churchgoing Mormons “are the most pro-social members of American society.” Even Mormons who have relatively low household incomes both tithe fully and give more of their income to assist non-Mormons in need than other Americans do. I'm sure there are other sources, but this is the first one I ran across. Edited July 14, 2016 by ksfisher 3
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 University costs for those interested: https://www2.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/reports/****eson2.pdf
jkwilliams Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 At this moment, I'm sitting on a bench at Target waiting for a pharmacy prescription. There is a fairly good-sized sign in front of me that says Target gives 5% of its profits to charity, which currently averages $4 million a week in charitable donations. 2
Tacenda Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Calm said: Actually iirc, there was one study demonstrating that even after removing church donations, LDS were highest. Could be the constant encouragement to donate extends the behaviour to donate. I will try and find the studybI am thinking of if it isn't posted already. You should find evidence that it includes the Church if you want to make that claim, btw. I guess I shouldn't go by memory, but I remember reading something about it. Thanks for the advice. ETA: the poll question asked if they had donated money or time in the last month, my bet is on the fact that yes, they donated to tithing and their calling. But I'll bow out on the subject, I'm too negative. Edited July 14, 2016 by Tacenda
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 19 minutes ago, Calm said: Actually iirc, there was one study demonstrating that even after removing church donations, LDS were highest. Could be the constant encouragement to donate extends the behaviour to donate. I will try and find the studybI am thinking of if it isn't posted already. You should find evidence that it includes the Church if you want to make that claim, btw. That would be odd...if we take away all Church donations LDS people are the biggest givers to charity? I can't imagine that's true. Hope you find this study. i'd like to read it.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 38 minutes ago, Thinking said: I believe that welfare given to members is not included in the amount given for humanitarian aid. But Elder Oaks specifically stated that it was $40 million spent on welfare, humanitarian aid, and other church projects around the world. Why would we think this doesn't include welfare?
ksfisher Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: At this moment, I'm sitting on a bench at Target waiting for a pharmacy prescription. There is a fairly good-sized sign in front of me that says Target gives 5% of its profits to charity, which currently averages $4 million a week in charitable donations. Or they could just lower their profit margin by 5% and you could decide which charity you want to give your money to instead of Target deciding for you. Edited July 14, 2016 by ksfisher 1
jkwilliams Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: Or they could just lower their profit margin by 5% and you could decide which charity you want to give your money to instead of Target deciding for you. I just thought it was a funny coincidence.
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: That would be odd...if we take away all Church donations LDS people are the biggest givers to charity? I can't imagine that's true. Hope you find this study. i'd like to read it. According to the link above, iirc LDS were giving $1200 outside of church. From this link: "American households donated a median $375 to congregations, $150 to religiously identified nonprofits, and $250 to secular charities in 2012." https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973 1
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 12 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Some of what your are saying is written about here. http://americamagazine.org/issue/5136/columns/mormons-and-charity Ram A. Cnaan, a renowned Israeli-born social-work scholar at the University of Pennsylvania, the study concludes that churchgoing Mormons “are the most pro-social members of American society.” Even Mormons who have relatively low household incomes both tithe fully and give more of their income to assist non-Mormons in need than other Americans do. I'm sure there are other sources, but this is the first one I ran across. Yeah...I don't really get what he's saying. And it'd be nice if he sourced the number and the quote he has. there's no attribution at all. I'm not sure what he's referring to. An actual study could help us. Quote Mormons reliably tithe to their churches and also give about $1,200 annually “to social causes outside the church.” Even Mormons who have relatively low household incomes both tithe fully and give more of their income to assist non-Mormons in need than other Americans do.
stemelbow Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Calm said: According to the link above, iirc LDS were giving $1200 outside of church. From this link: "American households donated a median $375 to congregations, $150 to religiously identified nonprofits, and $250 to secular charities in 2012." https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Religious-Americans-Give-More/153973 your comment was the LDS were highest--meaning highest of all other groups or religions? I didn't realize you meant compared to the average of everyone. I'm not sure. The article mentions 1200 but I don't know what that refers to. There's no source at all. He could have had someone say "we give, typically, monthly for fast offerings, which is about 100 a month, which is to help people that live near us" and he took that and ran with it. But we dont' know. Edited July 14, 2016 by stemelbow
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 18 minutes ago, Jeanne said: She asked if there was help available for her..and he told her to begin paying tithing. I get that, but afterwards? He may have wanted to see her commitment to paying tithing first and then would have provided help if asked. I am not saying that was the right thing to do, but I can see why some bishops if they have a lot needing help might depend more on the member to be proactive in getting it to help them determine where money is really needed.
Jeanne Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 7 minutes ago, Calm said: I get that, but afterwards? He may have wanted to see her commitment to paying tithing first and then would have provided help if asked. I am not saying that was the right thing to do, but I can see why some bishops if they have a lot needing help might depend more on the member to be proactive in getting it to help them determine where money is really needed. I am sure he had his reasons. She paid tithing for a while..but lost her apartment..moved to a smaller place. She did not feel comfortable returning to ask for help and no one checked in. I think she may had assumed to much in what kind of assistance maybe. She is okay now with doing things on her own. Perhaps that was the point.
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 This doesn't show the amount to nonchurch charities and it is for Utah in general, but it adds info for comparison: "The average charitable deduction per return was $1,201 in 2011; state averages ranged from $2,516 in Utah to $620 in West Virginia. Following Utah, the other four states rounding out the top 5 average charitable contributions by return are, in descending order, the District of Columbia, Maryland, Wyoming, and New York. NCCS will publish a fuller version of the report in early 2014." http://nccs.urban.org/nccs/statistics/charitable-giving-in-america-some-facts-and-figures.cfm 1
Calm Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I am sure he had his reasons. She paid tithing for a while..but lost her apartment..moved to a smaller place. She did not feel comfortable returning to ask for help and no one checked in. I think she may had assumed to much in what kind of assistance maybe. She is okay now with doing things on her own. Perhaps that was the point. Thanks for the info.
Tacenda Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 21 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Yeah...I don't really get what he's saying. And it'd be nice if he sourced the number and the quote he has. there's no attribution at all. I'm not sure what he's referring to. An actual study could help us. I bet the money outside of tithing is fast offerings.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: I believe that is because they are paying their tithing, because it's considered a charity. So IMO, that's why it is the highest. In my experience members pay the majority to tithing with the belief that it is going to help with humanitarian. But if the numbers are correct and it only ends up being a small amount per member, they may need to look for other charities besides the church to give to. There is an informative article on traditional Christian tithing here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/2008/august/ancient-rise-and-recent-fall-of-tithing.html . At one time, tithing was mandatory (Roman Catholic canon law), and one could be excommunicated for not paying it. In Europe, after the time of Luther, governments began collecting the tithe and using it for church building costs, welfare, retirement, etc., and this continued into modern times. This was always the prerogative of the official state church, in Engliand that was the Anglican Church, while in Germany that would be the Lutheran Church or Roman Catholic Church, depending on location. Other churches were left out. The U.S. Constitutiion specifically prohibits the establishment of a state church for that very reason. Mormon tithing is so much more common today precisely because they are well organized and committed to their beliefs. Traditional christianity has fallen away from that commitment, although Americans in general tend to give a tremendous percentage of their income to general charities. All of us understand, of course, that it is tax deductible.
Recommended Posts