Guest Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is it true that 60 percent LDS members become Athiest? I wonder where he gets this number. Is this a problem, do members not get the relationship that they need, whether the church is true or not, that they would still cling to Him with or without the church? This guy gives a hypothetical scenario...c/p from the link: "I provided a hypothetical if their Prophet and apostles stated that "it was not the true church" would Mormons still be Christian? Would Christians be Christians if their Pastor denied Christ? Interesting hypothetical. Where is Your Identity? In Christ, or a man/church?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkHWmmW2tw He suggests that 60 (out oft he Church) ) out 100, becomes atheist...how could he knows this unless he interviewed all 100% of members who leave the Church. There is little doubt that he is one, and seeking to swells his ranks.
smac97 Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, Gray said: Richard Bushman said: Quote I believe that is what indeed happens, but it implies Mormonism is the whole world for people. When the Mormon world cracks, everything crashes down. Lots of people believe in God and Christ who are not Mormons. Are they all as flawed as the Mormons? I will say something a little abrasive in hopes of being informed. Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism? What should we teach our people to protect them from this vulnerability I wonder if Bro. Bushman is presenting something of a false dichotomy in asking "do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism." The LDS paradigm interweaves Christ with His Church, His Priesthood, and His Servants, such that to utterly reject the latter is to reject the former. Consider D&C 1: Quote Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high... ... And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days... ... And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious... ... And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people... ... Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments... ... Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding... ... And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually... ... What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. I don't see how a Latter-day Saint can extricate/isolate belief in God from belief in and allegiance to His Church. To the extent Bro. Bushman juxtaposes a connection with God against or otherwise not taking into account a connection with God's Church, I disagree with him. But perhaps this is not what Bro. Bushman is saying. Perhaps his intent is something like this: "To those who leave the LDS Church, we hope that you retain and take with you whatever truths and precepts you can accommodate in your heart and mind. You can leave the Church but still retain a belief in God, in His love for us, in the Golden Rule, in the beauty of charity for and service to others. You needn't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater." Yeah, that seems more likely what he means. Those who leave the Church would certainly be better off in repenting and returning. Absent that, they would be better off retaining a belief in God than in rejecting Him altogether. Absent that, they would be better adhering to the moral precepts and code of conduct generally central to the Gospel (Love Thy Neighbor) than not. Thanks, Smac Edited July 6, 2016 by smac97 4
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Teancum said: Bull. The historical issues are a major problem for anyone who can examine them rationally and realize that their testimony was based on false information and q mythical narrative. I did not want to stop believing the truth claims of Momromis, nor was I lookimg for an excuse not to believe. It just became clear at least for me that the evidence was heavily weighted against the LDS truth claims. Perhaps people like you need to say such things and embrace them to maintain your own testimony. 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: So nobody really leaves the Church over historical issues? No, perhaps you misunderstand. I fully believe that historical issues etc can be the trigger to a testimony collapsing. But once that testimony is weakened to the point of collapse by ANY issue at all, then what I said becomes true. Any excuse to leave and end the conflict being felt will do. It hurts to doubt and stopping that hurt may be more of a deciding factor than a belief that the doubt is accurate. If you begin to doubt Joseph was a prophet or Mormonism was true that may still not be the thing that makes you decide to leave. To say that a faith crisis and apostasy are a simple matter of cause and effect is to oversimplify the decision making process of many who choose to leave. My own mother still has a testimony, but she was hurt by certain things in the Church. When she was hurt by things at the local ward level she started reading about the spalding theory of all things. That didn't get her what she wanted because she was well read and while that silly theory gave her something she could question, it didn't break her testimony like she wanted. Fortunately for her discomfort she found a non-member old boyfriend online and hey presto, she had a new husband and a reason to leave the Church. So you see, her reason for leaving was bitterness and hurt in her local ward. She tried to break her testimony by feeding it with further doubt. When that didn't work she sought for comfort outside the Church. And she found it. And after all that, I know she still believes, but she also believes she's happier. So what was her real reason for leaving? Hurt? Doubt? More comfortable outside than in? People don't leave over the historical issues alone. Edited July 6, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
rodheadlee Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 10 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is it true that 60 percent LDS members become Athiest? I wonder where he gets this number. Is this a problem, do members not get the relationship that they need, whether the church is true or not, that they would still cling to Him with or without the church? This guy gives a hypothetical scenario...c/p from the link: "I provided a hypothetical if their Prophet and apostles stated that "it was not the true church" would Mormons still be Christian? Would Christians be Christians if their Pastor denied Christ? Interesting hypothetical. Where is Your Identity? In Christ, or a man/church?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkHWmmW2tw My identity is in Christ and His Father. I was lead to the Church at 28 years of age by the Holy Spirit and God the Father. Christ atoned for my sins at that time as the Holy Spirit had already born witness to me that Jesus was the Christ, my Savior.. So if the prophet came out and said the Church was not the true Church of Jesus Christ and it was all B.S. I would assume the prophet was in apostasy and lying because God cannot lie. 1
James Tunney Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, perhaps you misunderstand. I fully believe that historical issues etc can be the trigger to a testimony collapsing. But once that testimony is weakened to the point of collapse by ANY issue at all, then what I said becomes true. Any excuse to leave and end the conflict being felt will do. It hurts to doubt and stopping that hurt may be more of a deciding factor than a belief that the doubt is accurate. If you begin to doubt Joseph was a prophet or Mormonism was true that may still not be the thing that makes you decide to leave. To say that a faith crisis and apostasy are a simple matter of cause and effect is to oversimplify the decision making process of many who choose to leave. My own mother still has a testimony, but she was hurt by certain things in the Church. When she was hurt by things at the local ward level she started reading about the spalding theory of all things. That didn't get her what she wanted because she was well read and while that silly theory gave her something she could question, it didn't break her testimony like she wanted. Fortunately for her discomfort she found a non-member old boyfriend online and hey presto, she had a new husband and a reason to leave the Church. So you see, her reason for leaving was bitterness and hurt in her local ward. She tried to break her testimony by feeding it with further doubt. When that didn't work she sought for comfort outside the Church. And she found it. And after all that, I know she still believes, but she also believes she's happier. So what was her real reason for leaving? Hurt? Doubt? More comfortable outside than in? People don't leave over the historical issues alone. For what it's worth, I ultimately left because it isn't what it claims in my opinion. History certainly had something to do with it but the modern church had something to do with it as well. 1
Teancum Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, perhaps you misunderstand. I fully believe that historical issues etc can be the trigger to a testimony collapsing. But once that testimony is weakened to the point of collapse by ANY issue at all, then what I said becomes true. Any excuse to leave and end the conflict being felt will do. It hurts to doubt and stopping that hurt may be more of a deciding factor than a belief that the doubt is accurate. If you begin to doubt Joseph was a prophet or Mormonism was true that may still not be the thing that makes you decide to leave. To say that a faith crisis and apostasy are a simple matter of cause and effect is to oversimplify the decision making process of many who choose to leave. My own mother still has a testimony, but she was hurt by certain things in the Church. When she was hurt by things at the local ward level she started reading about the spalding theory of all things. That didn't get her what she wanted because she was well read and while that silly theory gave her something she could question, it didn't break her testimony like she wanted. Fortunately for her discomfort she found a non-member old boyfriend online and hey presto, she had a new husband and a reason to leave the Church. So you see, her reason for leaving was bitterness and hurt in her local ward. She tried to break her testimony by feeding it with further doubt. When that didn't work she sought for comfort outside the Church. And she found it. And after all that, I know she still believes, but she also believes she's happier. So what was her real reason for leaving? Hurt? Doubt? More comfortable outside than in? People don't leave over the historical issues alone. Yes people do leave over the historical issues alone. There comes a point for some/many where the preponderance of the evidence against out weighs in favor of the church. When that happens there are a number of other things to explore. The LDS church claims are fairly fantastical. LDS leaders not a few have said either what JS claimed is true or it is an utter falsehood. When the facts start stacking up against what a person has prayed about and gained a testimony about it can unravel in and of itself and not for some other reason. For many cognitive dissonance may cause them to struggle and remain or perhaps find another reason to leave. Then there are those like you use confirmation bias and marginalize those who actually do leave because they have found the history to be something other than they were led to believe not. Not everyone fits into your neat little box. 3
The Nehor Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: So nobody really leaves the Church over historical issues? No, I suspect some people do. I just do not think it is that many. I can say that if I ever leave it will be because of some fun sin and not a debate over the Kinderhook Plates or the various First Vision accounts. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted July 6, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Bull. The historical issues are a major problem for anyone who can examine them rationally and realize that their testimony was based on false information and q mythical narrative. I did not want to stop believing the truth claims of Momromis, nor was I lookimg for an excuse not to believe. It just became clear at least for me that the evidence was heavily weighted against the LDS truth claims. Perhaps people like you need to say such things and embrace them to maintain your own testimony. You have greater faith in the rationality of humanity then I do. Most of my decisions are somewhat rational but I suspect more colored by emotion, desire, and instinct then rationality. 6
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 14 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yes people do leave over the historical issues alone. There comes a point for some/many where the preponderance of the evidence against out weighs in favor of the church. When that happens there are a number of other things to explore. The LDS church claims are fairly fantastical. LDS leaders not a few have said either what JS claimed is true or it is an utter falsehood. When the facts start stacking up against what a person has prayed about and gained a testimony about it can unravel in and of itself and not for some other reason. For many cognitive dissonance may cause them to struggle and remain or perhaps find another reason to leave. Then there are those like you use confirmation bias and marginalize those who actually do leave because they have found the history to be something other than they were led to believe not. Not everyone fits into your neat little box. I think your box is the little one, not mine. It seems to believe that leaving the gospel where a deep spiritual testimony used to be held is usually the result of one single thing. I don't believe that history alone, or LGBT policies alone, or issues with polyandry, or textual anomalies in the BOM, or hurt feelings, cause a complete apostasy. I think peoples thought processes and feelings are far more complex than that. It's like someone saying Thomas B. Marsh chose to leave because his wife was accused of stealing cream strippings. Overly simplistic and not the cause of his actual disaffection at all. My "box" is encompassing enough that it recognizes people are complex creatures and leaving the Church is as complex a process as converting to or gaining a testimony of the Church. 4
bluebell Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I think that other churches teach that we should have a relationship much more than LDS. I don't think I've heard much about the Holy Spirit, just the Holy Ghost. And nothing about testing the prophets. I believe the Bible scriptures teach that if the prophet is wrong once, that's enough to know they are false. Maybe that's where we're taught that the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. And when some non LDS Christians study the issue and realize that there are biblical prophets who have prophesied wrong once and yet are still considered prophets, they sometimes start to question the bible, find more "problems", and stop believing it altogether. 2
Mystery Meat Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 Just now, JLHPROF said: I think your box is the little one, not mine. It seems to believe that leaving the gospel where a deep spiritual testimony used to be held is usually the result of one single thing. I don't believe that history alone, or LGBT policies alone, or issues with polyandry, or textual anomalies in the BOM, or hurt feelings, cause a complete apostasy. I think peoples thought processes and feelings are far more complex than that. It's like someone saying Thomas B. Marsh chose to leave because his wife was accused of stealing cream strippings. Overly simplistic and not the cause of his actual disaffection at all. My "box" is encompassing enough that it recognizes people are complex creatures and leaving the Church is as complex a process as converting to or gaining a testimony of the Church. Wonderfully said. So much this. Ironically, you would think this would be a concept doubters would cling to.
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 42 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I think your box is the little one, not mine. It seems to believe that leaving the gospel where a deep spiritual testimony used to be held is usually the result of one single thing. I don't believe that history alone, or LGBT policies alone, or issues with polyandry, or textual anomalies in the BOM, or hurt feelings, cause a complete apostasy. I think peoples thought processes and feelings are far more complex than that. It's like someone saying Thomas B. Marsh chose to leave because his wife was accused of stealing cream strippings. Overly simplistic and not the cause of his actual disaffection at all. My "box" is encompassing enough that it recognizes people are complex creatures and leaving the Church is as complex a process as converting to or gaining a testimony of the Church. I'm glad you know the full story about Thomas B. Marsh, it's left out of conference talks or Sunday School lessons. And appreciate that you recognize it's a process either way. Tonight I went to the movie "Saturday's Warrior", I talked my husband into going and for two dollars no biggie if it wasn't good. I didn't think it would be that great going in, but was surprised at the emotions it brought out. You could say I felt the spirit, and it was strong. But do I throw out all the facts, and go back, go back to the temple, go all in? Believe me, there was a moment that I wanted to. But is that deceiving? All the good feelings etc. I've been moved by other movies, with different faith paradigms. But tonight it brought back so many memories and good feelings. It's the part of Mormonism I can't bare to leave. Do you think God would test me on this, see if I'll go back to belief with only good feelings and skipping the historical problems? Since in the Bible says not to trust feelings. It's so confusing to me, all of it. I'm definitely not looking for a reason to leave, or am not at the point that I'm making excuses up to finally be through with it. Mormonism is definitely like a tribe, and usually very difficult to just walk away from, usually once a Mormon always one, in different complex ways. 1
Popular Post Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 6, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm glad you know the full story about Thomas B. Marsh, it's left out of conference talks or Sunday School lessons. And appreciate that you recognize it's a process either way. Tonight I went to the movie "Saturday's Warrior", I talked my husband into going and for two dollars no biggie if it wasn't good. I didn't think it would be that great going in, but was surprised at the emotions it brought out. You could say I felt the spirit, and it was strong. But do I throw out all the facts, and go back, go back to the temple, go all in? Believe me, there was a moment that I wanted to. But is that deceiving? All the good feelings etc. I've been moved by other movies, with different faith paradigms. But tonight it brought back so many memories and good feelings. It's the part of Mormonism I can't bare to leave. Do you think God would test me on this, see if I'll go back to belief with only good feelings and skipping the historical problems? Since in the Bible says not to trust feelings. It's so confusing to me, all of it. I'm definitely not looking for a reason to leave, or am not at the point that I'm making excuses up to finally be through with it. Mormonism is definitely like a tribe, and usually very difficult to just walk away from, usually once a Mormon always one, in different complex ways. Go wash yourself in the river! Look at the serpent staff and live! Were the children of Israel asked to analyze the story of Adam and Eve and then believe or to understand the complete story of Moses before they would follow him out of slavery and domination? God is always asking us to live by faith and he has always demanded the same thing. The rich man asked Jesus what should I do - give all that you have away and come follow me. Until we become as little children....do we want to follow Jesus Christ in faith and love? Or do we put our faith in the arm of flesh - all those "facts" that we think we know - or do we want to humble ourselves before God and believe, have faith, rely on faith, feed and nourish our faith? Tacenda you know as much as anyone what you should do and how. The only thing lacking is you taking a step. Choose faith - believe that God actually knows what he is doing when it makes no sense to us at the moment. 5
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Go wash yourself in the river! Look at the serpent staff and live! Were the children of Israel asked to analyze the story of Adam and Eve and then believe or to understand the complete story of Moses before they would follow him out of slavery and domination? God is always asking us to live by faith and he has always demanded the same thing. The rich man asked Jesus what should I do - give all that you have away and come follow me. Until we become as little children....do we want to follow Jesus Christ in faith and love? Or do we put our faith in the arm of flesh - all those "facts" that we think we know - or do we want to humble ourselves before God and believe, have faith, rely on faith, feed and nourish our faith? Tacenda you know as much as anyone what you should do and how. The only thing lacking is you taking a step. Choose faith - believe that God actually knows what he is doing when it makes no sense to us at the moment. What if the arm of the flesh is the church?
Mystery Meat Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 Just now, Tacenda said: I'm glad you know the full story about Thomas B. Marsh, it's left out of conference talks or Sunday School lessons. And appreciate that you recognize it's a process either way. Tonight I went to the movie "Saturday's Warrior", I talked my husband into going and for two dollars no biggie if it wasn't good. I didn't think it would be that great going in, but was surprised at the emotions it brought out. You could say I felt the spirit, and it was strong. But do I throw out all the facts, and go back, go back to the temple, go all in? Believe me, there was a moment that I wanted to. But is that deceiving? All the good feelings etc. I've been moved by other movies, with different faith paradigms. But tonight it brought back so many memories and good feelings. It's the part of Mormonism I can't bare to leave. Do you think God would test me on this, see if I'll go back to belief with only good feelings and skipping the historical problems? Since in the Bible says not to trust feelings. It's so confusing to me, all of it. I'm definitely not looking for a reason to leave, or am not at the point that I'm making excuses up to finally be through with it. Mormonism is definitely like a tribe, and usually very difficult to just walk away from, usually once a Mormon always one, in different complex ways. CFR That the bible says not to trust feelings.
sunstoned Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: True, but I rarely see people leave over historical issues so that is probably a minority reason. My experience has been just the opposite. Most of the people I know who have left the church (really left, not just gone inactive) have left over historical issues.
Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 28 minutes ago, Tacenda said: What if the arm of the flesh is the church? The arm of flesh is man. Apostles, prophets are callings; they are mantles placed upon humans. We have been told repeatedly to listen and pray about what they say; that are first priority is to follow the Holy Ghost. Do that. More often than not, the arm of flesh is our own desires, our own frailties, or it is the frailties of other humans that we put our faith. Thinking that man knows more than God. You are playing the game of weak faith that we all play. Do we really want to follow him or not. Too often we wish we could follow, but we are not ready to close our eyes and let him lead us. We think we know better and that we know what is best. I think it is pretty clear that humans more often than not don't have a clue about what is best for them. 4
The Nehor Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: My experience has been just the opposite. Most of the people I know who have left the church (really left, not just gone inactive) have left over historical issues. Do you live in a more intellectual area? 1
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said: CFR That the bible says not to trust feelings. There are several scriptures, the very first link is a good one. http://www.bibleanswer.com/human1.htm http://www.christianpost.com/news/relying-on-the-unreliable-feelings-our-no-1-enemy-112017/ http://setapartgirl.com/magazine/article/08-1-14/feelings-vs-truth https://www.hiskingdomprophecy.com/feelings-vs-truth/ http://www.nccg.org/173Art-Bunyan.html
busybee Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: What if the arm of the flesh is the church? What if it's not? Follow your feelings and see how you feel. Perhaps you should challenge your doubts by deciding to go 'all in'.. Return to full activity, determine to desire to have faith, become worthy to attend, and attend the temple again, study the BoM etc etc. If after doing this faithfully for 6 months you still feel like the issues causing your doubt are still insurmountable, call it quits. That way you can say you've given everything you've got and can walk away with that knowledge. Go on. I dare you Edited July 6, 2016 by busybee 2
Teancum Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: You have greater faith in the rationality of humanity then I do. Most of my decisions are somewhat rational but I suspect more colored by emotion, desire, and instinct then rationality. And your decision about religion is not fueled by such things?
Atheist Mormon Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 13 hours ago, JLHPROF said: But if someone wants to leave, they'll find a reason. It's not that we look for reason, usually the reason finds us in the form of evidence or lack thereof.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 11 hours ago, Teancum said: Many Mormon philosophers certain limit the Mormon God as finite and and not possessing of the Omni's. That could be a problem if one relied on Mormon philosophers for their salvation. 2
Maedros Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 13 hours ago, ladyshanae said: I know my son went into the CES Letter spiral (along with John Dehlin and Ex-Mo Reddit) and now he's not sure he even believes in God. Of those I know who have left, most seem to have gone the agnostic/atheist, though a few have their own beliefs or attend a non-denominational church. I wonder if those who leave initially plush all religion aside for a bit and then slowly find their own peace with it all, one way or another. Indeed, most who leave just "push all religion aside" but I find that one's spirituality is hard to discard and the Lord is relentless, he will not let them go even if it means leading them to other churches or religions. 1
snowflake Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 21 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is it true that 60 percent LDS members become Athiest? I wonder where he gets this number. Is this a problem, do members not get the relationship that they need, whether the church is true or not, that they would still cling to Him with or without the church? This guy gives a hypothetical scenario...c/p from the link: "I provided a hypothetical if their Prophet and apostles stated that "it was not the true church" would Mormons still be Christian? Would Christians be Christians if their Pastor denied Christ? Interesting hypothetical. Where is Your Identity? In Christ, or a man/church?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkHWmmW2tw I hate hypotheticals.....but when one is taught that: 1: the bible is not to be trusted...many plain and precious truths have been removed. God did not preserve his Word. 2: the great apostasy, there is no truth except in the LDS church. 3: all other churches are errant and "their professors are employed by Satan" Pre 90's temple ceremony 4: Joseph was a man of upstanding character 5: the prophets and apostles cannot lead the church astray, these leaders talk directly with Jesus himself. 6: count on feelings to guide you, pray to know truth When individuals discover that they have been mislead, lied to and that all of the above statements are untrue, people completely turn from God. I can't blame them, they are taught that basically without the LDS church there is no truth, which is a lie, but they believe it. It is terrible to leave God, but I personally believe that our LDS friends find their identity in the church before Jesus. My identity is with Jesus.
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