Are LDS members in danger of losing their belief in Christ if they leave the church?

[Tacenda]

Is it true that 60 percent LDS members become Athiest? I wonder where he gets this number. Is this a problem, do members not get the relationship that they need, whether the church is true or not, that they would still cling to Him with or without the church?

This guy gives a hypothetical scenario...c/p from the link:  "I provided a hypothetical if their Prophet and apostles stated that "it was not the true church" would Mormons still be Christian? Would Christians be Christians if their Pastor denied Christ? Interesting hypothetical. Where is Your Identity? In Christ, or a man/church?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkHWmmW2tw

 

[JAHS]

I know some who have claimed to find the "real" Christ after leaving the church. I am guessing that if church leaders were to deny Christ there would still be some who would simply turn to the Bible and base their entire faith on their own interpretation of who Christ is and continue to believe in Him. 

[Gray]

Richard Bushman said:

 

Quote

I believe that is what indeed happens, but it implies Mormonism is the whole world for people. When the Mormon world cracks, everything crashes down. Lots of people believe in God and Christ who are not Mormons. Are they all as flawed as the Mormons?

I will say something a little abrasive in hopes of being informed. Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism? What should we teach our people to protect them from this vulnerability?

 

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

Richard Bushman said:  

I believe that is what indeed happens, but it implies Mormonism is the whole world for people. When the Mormon world cracks, everything crashes down. Lots of people believe in God and Christ who are not Mormons. Are they all as flawed as the Mormons?

I will say something a little abrasive in hopes of being informed. Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism? What should we teach our people to protect them from this vulnerability?

 

 

That is spot on, thanks for the quote, I hadn't seen it before!

Edited July 5, 2016 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Richard Bushman said:

I will say something a little abrasive in hopes of being informed. Should not Mormons have a connection with God that goes beyond the Church? Do we worship God or do we worship Mormonism?

 

Wrong question it is not an either or.  We worship God as taught by Mormonism.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, ERayR said:

Wrong question it is not an either or.  We worship God as taught by Mormonism.

I don't.  I'm not sure we're all seeing this the same.  To worship God as taught by Mormonism is to limit God to Mormonism, in my mind.  God is so far beyond the religion, in my view.  I wouldn't suggest Mormonism isn't a useful tool to help each of us understand God a little more.  But ti's really just one tool of many, as I see it.

But you raise an issue at the heart of all this, in my view.  Members either see that worhsipping God is done because of Mormonism or they see that worshipping God is done in spite of Mormonism.  Two contrasting paradigms which is causing tension that seems to be raising it's head more and more these days.  At least I'm feeling the tension more and more in my local area these days. 

[bluebell]

I think it's a symptom of the things that cause a person to lose their testimony of the church in the first place. 

Most of the arguments that can cause a person to lose faith in the church are just as capable of causing a person to lose faith in God as well. Historical issues, scriptural problems, skepticism, etc. 

I don't think it's because people have faith in the church first and God second. I think it's because once most people start to doubt the spiritual claims of the church, they quickly move on to doubting all spiritual claims. 

For example, if you can't trust that it was the Holy Ghost telling you the BOM was true then how can you trust He's telling you the bible is true?  How can you trust any testimony you have?

[Mystery Meat]

As family who have left the church have said to me, "After leaving behind the doctrine of Mormonism, everything else seems worthless by comparison." In other words you go from having a hope of a limitless eternal destiny, to destroying the man who taught and revealed this destiny, to trying to embrace something that falls pretty flat by comparison (at least to them).

In other words, the doctrines of Mormonism are cherished and believed, but once the devil has destroyed the Prophet, everything else is empty by comparison (and understandably so). Believing in any other Jesus, would feel like believing in an incomplete deity (and that's because such a Jesus would be incomplete). 

[ERayR]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't.  I'm not sure we're all seeing this the same.  To worship God as taught by Mormonism is to limit God to Mormonism, in my mind.  God is so far beyond the religion, in my view.  I wouldn't suggest Mormonism isn't a useful tool to help each of us understand God a little more.  But ti's really just one tool of many, as I see it.

But you raise an issue at the heart of all this, in my view.  Members either see that worhsipping God is done because of Mormonism or they see that worshipping God is done in spite of Mormonism.  Two contrasting paradigms which is causing tension that seems to be raising it's head more and more these days.  At least I'm feeling the tension more and more in my local area these days. 

But IMNSHO Mormonism places no limitations on God.  At least in my understanding of it there are no limitations.  In addition Mormonism has the authority and power to reveal God in his fullest.  I have not found anything else that can provide any insights into understanding God that Mormonism doesn't provide.  Admittedly it is not perfect but I have found none better.

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it's a symptom of the things that cause a person to lose their testimony of the church in the first place. 

Most of the arguments that can cause a person to lose faith in the church are just as capable of causing a person to lose faith in God as well. Historical issues, scriptural problems, skepticism, etc. 

I don't think it's because people have faith in the church first and God second. I think it's because once most people start to doubt the spiritual claims of the church, they quickly move on to doubting all spiritual claims. 

For example, if you can't trust that it was the Holy Ghost telling you the BOM was true then how can you trust He's telling you the bible is true?  How can you trust any testimony you have?

This are all great points. 

I think another problem is that many people learn to be skeptical of other faith traditions from their experiences in the LDS church. On my mission it was common to bag on the various Christian denominations that we encountered.

There used to be a more prominent discussion of the great apostasy when I was growing up, which by nature is a subject critical of Christianity at large. When you've already had the well poisoned against other Christian denominations, and you lose your faith in Mormonism, you're probably not likely to join another church. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

This are all great points. 

I think another problem is that many people learn to be skeptical of other faith traditions from their experiences in the LDS church. On my mission it was common to bag on the various Christian denominations that we encountered.

There used to be a more prominent discussion of the great apostasy when I was growing up, which by nature is a subject critical of Christianity at large. When you've already had the well poisoned against other Christian denominations, and you lose your faith in Mormonism, you're probably not likely to join another church. 

Very true. 

It's probably the same as when non LDS Christians lose their belief in Christ they don't typically convert to Judaism, Islam, or paganism. They typically become atheist. 

 

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it's a symptom of the things that cause a person to lose their testimony of the church in the first place. 

Most of the arguments that can cause a person to lose faith in the church are just as capable of causing a person to lose faith in God as well. Historical issues, scriptural problems, skepticism, etc. 

I don't think it's because people have faith in the church first and God second. I think it's because once most people start to doubt the spiritual claims of the church, they quickly move on to doubting all spiritual claims. 

For example, if you can't trust that it was the Holy Ghost telling you the BOM was true then how can you trust He's telling you the bible is true?  How can you trust any testimony you have?

So much of this for me!  I could not ever trust anything 'spiritual" again if my reasons for believing in the LDS faith were undone by "logic" alone.  

JS translated from a stone in a hat... PUHLEESE!  If I go that route, then - Moses got ten commandments written by the literal finger of God on a mountaintop and spoke to him in a burning bush - PUHLEESE!  And Jesus was killed, and rose from the dead, and it wasn't his followers who took the body - PUHLEESE!

It would be a rabbit hole of faithlessness for me that I would not recover from - so I cherish my spiritual witnesses and experiences more than gold!

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Maestrophil
Spelling

[Storm Rider]

I think for most LDS the alternative options within Christianity are not very appealing.  Should they attend a Protestant church?  Why?  At best we know that they are churches of man without claiming any degree of a restoration, simply a man thinking the Catholic Church is wrong and therefor they create their own church in their own image.  

Should they turn to Catholicism?  For a LDS this at least has a degree of logic to it - the authority is there, but there are additional beliefs that are difficult for LDS to accept.  It is not impossible because I have talked with several Mormons that have made this transition.  

So what are the options?  If Church of Jesus Christ is not the Church of Jesus Christ then it is logical to assume that there are no other viable options.....thus, God does not exist.  I believe that Satan is real and he uses a wide range of tricks to lead each child of God into unbelief.  In this secular world he has great success among many people.  

[The Nehor]

Yes.

[theplains]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

I know some who have claimed to find the "real" Christ after leaving the church. I am guessing that if church leaders were to deny Christ there would still be some who would simply turn to the Bible and base their entire faith on their own interpretation of who Christ is and continue to believe in Him. 

Some come to realize that Jesus has always been God. This they view as the 'real' Christ ... as 
opposed to 'false' Christs that various religions teach. Also, if Heavenly Father is not an
exalted man, then this god would be a false god.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

Richard Bushman said:

 

 

What Bushman says hit me.  Mormonsism is it's own world.  The only way.  If you leave it, you lose a sense of self, community and a whole world is just gone.  Hard to explain.  Finding God again..takes some real hard work and trhing to connect and then disassociate from the only God you have ever known is really difficult. It is sometimes laughed about, but there is a difference between the mormon God anId the one I speak to now.  If you could for a moment separate mormon thought and be part of a world that is open to any free thought at all..you can find hope and some real answers from Him without being told what He said..what you should do...and why.  It is YOUR relationship that matters.

[Tacenda]

Thank you for all of these wonderful answers I connected to each of them in different ways! 

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thank you for all of these wonderful answers I connected to each of them in different ways! 

You ask good questions Tacenda! 

[Storm Rider]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

What Bushman says hit me.  Mormonsism is it's own world.  The only way.  If you leave it, you lose a sense of self, community and a whole world is just gone.  Hard to explain.  Finding God again..takes some real hard work and trhing to connect and then disassociate from the only God you have ever known is really difficult. It is sometimes laughed about, but there is a difference between the mormon God anId the one I speak to now.  If you could for a moment separate mormon thought and be part of a world that is open to any free thought at all..you can find hope and some real answers from Him without being told what He said..what you should do...and why.  It is YOUR relationship that matters.

Jeanne, 

The danger I see in what you say is not that it is wrong, but that it can be twisted so easily into a a fairy tale god that is all about love, never asks anything of us, never has any commandments, it is all just fairy tales, rainbows, unicorns and rose colored glasses about two feet thick.  

The Law of Moses was preparatory to the Gospel of Christ not because it was wrong, but because the children of Israel refused to follow the Spirit.  They demanded to be told everything to do in order to be righteous.  The Law of Christ is the higher law because it is based on the Spirit.  It requires that his covenant people, which was not sealed by birth as in the House of Israel, but by choice to all who chose to follow after him.  

The danger of this foundation you have presented is that there is no need to "follow"; there is no self-sacrifice; there is no demands; there is no covenant.  It is all one-way because God is love and he loves me just the way I am and I don't have to do anything but say "you are god" and shazam you are saved.   This is the machinations of the Evil One to lead every child of God astray.  

Please note that I did not say that manner in which you see God is wrong or incorrect, but it opens so many potential errors and falsehoods and that is what is dangerous.  

The God you describe and the God I worship are the same and I believe in the same way.  I don't think I have ever known this Mormon god you speak of because that was never my relationship with God.  He was always my refuge from the storm of life since I was a young lad.  My relationship was first and foremost directly with God the Father.  The Savior expanded that relationship exponentially and made everything possible.  

I really do think that Mormon Utah culture has allowed some really strange phenomena to exist among the saints.  I don't find this degree of distortion among the saints outside of Utah and those that grew up in that culture.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

So much of this for me!  I could not ever trust anything 'spiritual" again if my reasons for believing in the LDS faith were undone by "logic" alone.  

JS translated from a stone in a hat... PUHLEESE!  If I go that route, then - Moses got ten commandments written by the literal finger of God on a mountaintop and spoke to him in a burning bush - PUHLEESE!  And Jesus was killed, and rose from the dead, and it wasn't his followers who took the body - PUHLEESE!

It would be a rabbit hole of faithlessness for me that I would not recover from - so I cherish my spiritual witnesses and experiences more than gold!

 

 

 

Bluebell and you may need some kind of back up plan.

This guy on the Youtube is a non denominational Christian, his church is at home. I wonder if people would miss going to a church or that community that church provides. Or I guess there are other ways to achieve that. And I believe Christ has said that we must meet together. 

I watched a few of his Youtube videos and in one he mentions taking several weeks on one chapter of the Bible. Do we as LDS need more time on the Bible. And do we need to stress that the Bible is the word of God also?

Another thing, derailing my own topic, how come the D & C is so contradictory to the BoM? The BoM seems more in line with the Bible. Maybe that's why we're taught to read it the most, over D & C and PoGP. Light bulb moment for me! That must be why, because it does line up more with the Bible! Or I'm putting words in our church's teachings.

I worry over things like this guy mentions, I don't want to lose my testimony of Christ, but like bluebell and others, it's so hard to go from Mormonism to another religion. I guess I could just have that relationship with God/Jesus, I know several who are.

But if one doesn't have that with Jesus/God, I believe they'll still be loved by Deity no matter what, and I don't believe they'll be damned. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

What Bushman says hit me.  Mormonsism is it's own world.  The only way.  If you leave it, you lose a sense of self, community and a whole world is just gone.  Hard to explain.  Finding God again..takes some real hard work and trhing to connect and then disassociate from the only God you have ever known is really difficult. It is sometimes laughed about, but there is a difference between the mormon God anId the one I speak to now.  If you could for a moment separate mormon thought and be part of a world that is open to any free thought at all..you can find hope and some real answers from Him without being told what He said..what you should do...and why.  It is YOUR relationship that matters.

 I agree that this can be a problem but I am not sure how to fix it. I have laughed off odd counsel from leaders and "church" failures because I know God a little. Not much, but enough. There is a danger in the church telling people to pursue God on their own. That kind of counsel can seem like a license to well-meaning (and not so well-meaning) charlatans preaching false Christs. 

I love the church. It has its anachronisms and silliness and sometimes even pettiness but it is wonderful. They defend the doctrine and preach it. It provides keys to the power of God and through it salvation. The flaws will be healed in time. The bride must be made perfect for the coming wedding.

The church is a conduit to God and a vital one but God is the truly enjoyable part of the experience. To bask in the love of God is worth a hundred Fast and Testimony travel reports and dozens of dull meetings. If I could get the former without the latter I would and in a better world I could but this world is fallen. It is a mess. The church is vital here but it is a crutch. In exaltation there is no temple or chapel because they are shadows of the much more joyous experience of heaven.

Edited July 5, 2016 by The Nehor

[california boy]

When one is taught that all other churches are false.  And then you come to believe that the church you put your faith in is also false, what do you have left to turn to?

I think there are only two options.  Believe that all religion is false.

Or come to understand who Christ is without the dogma of religious sects that you now believe are all created by man.  Some come out with a stronger belief in Christ.  And some come out with no belief in anything related to religion.  

[Storm Rider]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Bluebell and you may need some kind of back up plan.

This guy on the Youtube is a non denominational Christian, his church is at home. I wonder if people would miss going to a church or that community that church provides. Or I guess there are other ways to achieve that. And I believe Christ has said that we must meet together. 

I watched a few of his Youtube videos and in one he mentions taking several weeks on one chapter of the Bible. Do we as LDS need more time on the Bible. And do we need to stress that the Bible is the word of God also?

Another thing, derailing my own topic, how come the D & C is so contradictory to the BoM? The BoM seems more in line with the Bible. Maybe that's why we're taught to read it the most, over D & C and PoGP. Light bulb moment for me! That must be why, because it does line up more with the Bible! Or I'm putting words in our church's teachings.

I worry over things like this guy mentions, I don't want to lose my testimony of Christ, but like bluebell and others, it's so hard to go from Mormonism to another religion. I guess I could just have that relationship with God/Jesus, I know several who are.

But if one doesn't have that with Jesus/God, I believe they'll still be loved by Deity no matter what, and I don't believe they'll be damned. 

It is interesting that at no time did God teach that his path was a path of solitude.  That he would call someone to him and they were then to remove themselves from humanity and only worship him alone.  It has always been in union with other individuals, ALWAYS.  

Now, who would want someone to stray from God's path?  It is the same individual who would get you to believe 99 truths if he could then get you to swallow one big lie.  God has not hid himself. He has always talked to his children and those willing to follow after him.  No other church challenges its members to find that relationship, test all things, follow the Holy Spirit more than the Church of Jesus Christ.  

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It is interesting that at no time did God teach that his path was a path of solitude.  That he would call someone to him and they were then to remove themselves from humanity and only worship him alone.  It has always been in union with other individuals, ALWAYS.  

Now, who would want someone to stray from God's path?  It is the same individual who would get you to believe 99 truths if he could then get you to swallow one big lie.  God has not hid himself. He has always talked to his children and those willing to follow after him.  No other church challenges its members to find that relationship, test all things, follow the Holy Spirit more than the Church of Jesus Christ.  

No other church challenges its members to find that relationship? I think they do. The Bible wants you to test all things, including a prophet, and if they get one revelation wrong, they're wrong. And of course other religions follow the Holy Spirit. I don't think our church has a market on these 3 things. In other things like organization, living their religion etc. you may be right.

[Tacenda]

Do we have a couple of cases in point on this thread, that this guy on the Youtube may be right? In his hypothetical situation we have two churches and one group states if the church is false, everything else is, and in the other group they could care less about what church they go to, Jesus is everything. Do we have a problem here?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Tacenda