Mystery Meat Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Bluebell and you may need some kind of back up plan. This guy on the Youtube is a non denominational Christian, his church is at home. I wonder if people would miss going to a church or that community that church provides. Or I guess there are other ways to achieve that. And I believe Christ has said that we must meet together. I watched a few of his Youtube videos and in one he mentions taking several weeks on one chapter of the Bible. Do we as LDS need more time on the Bible. And do we need to stress that the Bible is the word of God also? Probably. But how much more time does the world need with the Book of Mormon by comparison?
CV75 Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is it true that 60 percent LDS members become Athiest? I wonder where he gets this number. Is this a problem, do members not get the relationship that they need, whether the church is true or not, that they would still cling to Him with or without the church? This guy gives a hypothetical scenario...c/p from the link: "I provided a hypothetical if their Prophet and apostles stated that "it was not the true church" would Mormons still be Christian? Would Christians be Christians if their Pastor denied Christ? Interesting hypothetical. Where is Your Identity? In Christ, or a man/church?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkHWmmW2tw I do not know if that statistic is true. Does that mean I do not believe in statistics? (Answer, No) Do 60% LDS just become Atheist out of the blue? And do they believe in the same Atheism, or disbelieve the same Christ? From what I’ve seen, some who leave the faith would still believe in Christ (however they perceive Him), and some not, and that there is a correlation between not believing in Mormonism anymore, and/or the Church, and/or the Christ for some and not others. Personally, I don’t like these kinds of hypotheticals, but if Mormons had pastors (and using the capitalized “Pastor” makes me read the statement as “…if their Christ denied Christ,” which makes no sense at all), or changed its doctrine in such a way as to say the Restoration does not mean it is the only true and living church, I think we’d be like any other Christian leaving their church. Who is to really say what people should do when leaving the Church or become Atheist, other than “Repent!” (in ways that will entice them to want to repent...)?
consiglieri Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 I think the problem for people who leave the Church over historical issues is that they can readily see how the same problems plague the development of Christianity. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik.
CV75 Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 26 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do we have a couple of cases in point on this thread, that this guy on the Youtube may be right? In his hypothetical situation we have two churches and one group states if the church is false, everything else is, and in the other group they could care less about what church they go to, Jesus is everything. Do we have a problem here? How would you suggest one define the problem?
The Nehor Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 27 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Do we have a couple of cases in point on this thread, that this guy on the Youtube may be right? In his hypothetical situation we have two churches and one group states if the church is false, everything else is, and in the other group they could care less about what church they go to, Jesus is everything. Do we have a problem here? Sounds like the kind of confusion that led a teenage boy to try vocal prayer in a grove of trees. 1
The Nehor Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think the problem for people who leave the Church over historical issues is that they can readily see how the same problems plague the development of Christianity. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik. True, but I rarely see people leave over historical issues so that is probably a minority reason. 2
Jeanne Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 43 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Jeanne, The danger I see in what you say is not that it is wrong, but that it can be twisted so easily into a a fairy tale god that is all about love, never asks anything of us, never has any commandments, it is all just fairy tales, rainbows, unicorns and rose colored glasses about two feet thick. The Law of Moses was preparatory to the Gospel of Christ not because it was wrong, but because the children of Israel refused to follow the Spirit. They demanded to be told everything to do in order to be righteous. The Law of Christ is the higher law because it is based on the Spirit. It requires that his covenant people, which was not sealed by birth as in the House of Israel, but by choice to all who chose to follow after him. The danger of this foundation you have presented is that there is no need to "follow"; there is no self-sacrifice; there is no demands; there is no covenant. It is all one-way because God is love and he loves me just the way I am and I don't have to do anything but say "you are god" and shazam you are saved. This is the machinations of the Evil One to lead every child of God astray. Please note that I did not say that manner in which you see God is wrong or incorrect, but it opens so many potential errors and falsehoods and that is what is dangerous. The God you describe and the God I worship are the same and I believe in the same way. I don't think I have ever known this Mormon god you speak of because that was never my relationship with God. He was always my refuge from the storm of life since I was a young lad. My relationship was first and foremost directly with God the Father. The Savior expanded that relationship exponentially and made everything possible. I really do think that Mormon Utah culture has allowed some really strange phenomena to exist among the saints. I don't find this degree of distortion among the saints outside of Utah and those that grew up in that culture. I do understand where you are coming from as a Mormon pov and doctrine But you need to know that I have made my own promises to God. I try to keep them and I do have a relatioship with Him. If you think that I think that this is easier or just convenient not live a good life...that is not so. It is hard everyday to live uop to some promises ..the difference is that I really am accountable to myself..and no one has to point that out to me. There are consequences of my conscience but without such huge judgement from others. I hope that you will have a better understanding of my own thoughts on this. We are not against eachother..each in our own way and path will make mistakes with just one goal in common..to be One with Him. To me, secret signs, names and passwords are not a part of the equation. I want to believe..and be close to God..but it doesn't need to be a special club. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 5, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: What Bushman says hit me. Mormonsism is it's own world. The only way. If you leave it, you lose a sense of self, community and a whole world is just gone. Hard to explain. Finding God again..takes some real hard work and trhing to connect and then disassociate from the only God you have ever known is really difficult. It is sometimes laughed about, but there is a difference between the mormon God anId the one I speak to now. If you could for a moment separate mormon thought and be part of a world that is open to any free thought at all..you can find hope and some real answers from Him without being told what He said..what you should do...and why. It is YOUR relationship that matters. Just like it's important for Mormons to remember that other people can also have a great relationship with God outside of the church, it's also important for non Mormons to remember that Mormons can have a great relationship with God inside the church. Mormons can have that without separating from "Mormon thought". 9
Jeanne Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 Just now, bluebell said: Just like it's important for Mormons to remember that other people can also have a great relationship with God outside of the church, it's also important for non Mormons to remember that Mormons can have a great relationship with God inside the church. Mormons can have that without separating from "Mormon thought". My thoughts didn't come out right..but I agree. To each his own path. Actually, Bluebell, it is what ever makes one a better person. I know and love many LDS people who really shine with the church. They belong there They are people like you who believe that I, too..can have the same relationship. 2
Calm Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: No other church challenges its members to find that relationship? I think they do. If something sounds like an overstatement, it is wise to reread a couple of times to make sure you didn't miss something. He didn't say no other church challenges its members, but no other church challenges its members more than. Big difference. 1
Tacenda Posted July 5, 2016 Author Posted July 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: If something sounds like an overstatement, it is wise to reread a couple of times to make sure you didn't miss something. He didn't say no other church challenges its members, but no other church challenges its members more than. Big difference. I understood that, but maybe not at the precise moment I typed that sentence out, thanks for mentioning this. With the latter sentences I think it is shown that I understood the statement.
JLHPROF Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 51 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think the problem for people who leave the Church over historical issues is that they can readily see how the same problems plague the development of Christianity. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik. 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: True, but I rarely see people leave over historical issues so that is probably a minority reason. Agreed with Nehor. The historical "issues" just provide the excuse for some. For a lot of people who feel dissatisfied or disagreeable any excuse will do in the end. For some that excuse actually is a conversion to traditional Christianity. For some it's a walk away from any religion at all. But if someone wants to leave, they'll find a reason. 2
Tacenda Posted July 5, 2016 Author Posted July 5, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed with Nehor. The historical "issues" just provide the excuse for some. For a lot of people who feel dissatisfied or disagreeable any excuse will do in the end. For some that excuse actually is a conversion to traditional Christianity. For some it's a walk away from any religion at all. But if someone wants to leave, they'll find a reason. I disagree hands down with you and Nehor. 2
ladyshanae Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 I know my son went into the CES Letter spiral (along with John Dehlin and Ex-Mo Reddit) and now he's not sure he even believes in God. Of those I know who have left, most seem to have gone the agnostic/atheist, though a few have their own beliefs or attend a non-denominational church. I wonder if those who leave initially plush all religion aside for a bit and then slowly find their own peace with it all, one way or another.
Calm Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 It is interesting that you see having rigid and absolute tests for determining a prophet somehow is the most important or at least the first thing that occurs to you for the idea of a belief community/church challenging people to seek out a relationship with Christ. It is not something that would immediately occur to me or even be in the top ten. I am trying to see how you get there.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 7 hours ago, Tacenda said: Are LDS members in danger of losing their belief in Christ if they leave the church? The main reason I was converted to the church was because Joseph had a better character (I thought) than Jesus to begin with. When I left the Church years later ditching Jesus was nothing.
Storm Rider Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: No other church challenges its members to find that relationship? I think they do. The Bible wants you to test all things, including a prophet, and if they get one revelation wrong, they're wrong. And of course other religions follow the Holy Spirit. I don't think our church has a market on these 3 things. In other things like organization, living their religion etc. you may be right. Tacenda, I think you misunderstood my comment. No other church " challenges its members to find that relationship, test all things, follow the Holy Spirit more than the Church of Jesus Christ." It is absolutely not that other churches don't do many of the same things, but that none of them does it MORE than our church. I also don't disagree with your statement about prophets - nor would Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Thomas Monson. When a prophet is wrong then they are wrong. We are challenged consistently to test our prophets in General Conference and we rely first on the Holy Spirit, not what a prophet says or anyone else. This is doctrine; this is the Church's teachings. If anyone says otherwise or believes differently then they are not correct. Does this make sense now? 1
consiglieri Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed with Nehor. The historical "issues" just provide the excuse for some. For a lot of people who feel dissatisfied or disagreeable any excuse will do in the end. For some that excuse actually is a conversion to traditional Christianity. For some it's a walk away from any religion at all. But if someone wants to leave, they'll find a reason. So nobody really leaves the Church over historical issues?
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 47 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Tacenda, I think you misunderstood my comment. No other church " challenges its members to find that relationship, test all things, follow the Holy Spirit more than the Church of Jesus Christ." It is absolutely not that other churches don't do many of the same things, but that none of them does it MORE than our church. I also don't disagree with your statement about prophets - nor would Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Thomas Monson. When a prophet is wrong then they are wrong. We are challenged consistently to test our prophets in General Conference and we rely first on the Holy Spirit, not what a prophet says or anyone else. This is doctrine; this is the Church's teachings. If anyone says otherwise or believes differently then they are not correct. Does this make sense now? I think that other churches teach that we should have a relationship much more than LDS. I don't think I've heard much about the Holy Spirit, just the Holy Ghost. And nothing about testing the prophets. I believe the Bible scriptures teach that if the prophet is wrong once, that's enough to know they are false. Maybe that's where we're taught that the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. 1
Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I think that other churches teach that we should have a relationship much more than LDS. I don't think I've heard much about the Holy Spirit, just the Holy Ghost. And nothing about testing the prophets. I believe the Bible scriptures teach that if the prophet is wrong once, that's enough to know they are false. Maybe that's where we're taught that the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly. Yes, I have heard that biblical support on a prophet being wrong once then they are false. Based on that test I am not sure we can say that any prophet of the OT and NT is true. Jesus said he would return and he hasn't. In fact, the first apostles were absolutely clear that Jesus was returning the second time imminently. I dare say that there was not a single disciple for the first 500 years that thought it would take 2,000 years and and counting for Jesus to return. Was Jesus false? Of course not. Then what does the verse mean? Were those prophets being discussed perfect and lost any ability to be human and grossly infalliable? I am curious about your thoughts. Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost are used interchangeably and mean the same thing. Let's not play coy about words or labels. I did a search on LDS.org for "Holy Spirit" and quit counting at 30 pages. The label Holy Spirit is used in all publications, all talks, everywhere in the Church. If you prefer Holy Ghost, then use it. If you prefer Holy Spirit, then use it - they mean the exact same thing. Protestants preach nothing else because they have nothing else. The whole reason for their being, the oldest ones, was to rebel against Rome, the pope, and the Catholic Church. The younger ones are a creation of man and have zero authority except that some chap woke up one day and did not like the way their church taught a certain thing and viola, a new church was born. No claims about God's direction, guidance, and calling them to restore truth. They just did not like the previous way of doing things so they created their own church. They often reject most of the NT or at least ignore it - particularly those scriptures on the priesthood, baptism, and offices in priesthood and the concept of the Church of Jesus Christ. Tacenda, you often have a rather selective memory on what has and has not been taught. This could be for many reasons; regardless, it is time to begin listening to what is actually taught by the Church of Jesus Christ and what is not taught. It is time to stop spending so much effort and learning about what bizarre, far left field individuals think and believe and spend time reading the scriptures and actually listening to the apostles and prophets. I think if you spend 25% of the time just doing what you know you are supposed to do you would be in a much surer position and would actually know significantly more about what the Church actual is about. I am not trying to be harsh, but it is disturbing when you talk about a lack of faith and yet you don't do anything to build or reinforce the foundation you have. Edited July 6, 2016 by Storm Rider 3
Jeanne Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: So nobody really leaves the Church over historical issues? Only 3/4 of us...The thing is..i believe there is a difference between historical since the restoration...and the history in the Book of Mormon. The B of M was a promise of truth..and I can't see that God would let the truths of people come forth with no absolute accuracy of its time and places. Like you say...can't have ti both ways.
Teancum Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 7 hours ago, Mystery Meat said: As family who have left the church have said to me, "After leaving behind the doctrine of Mormonism, everything else seems worthless by comparison." In other words you go from having a hope of a limitless eternal destiny, to destroying the man who taught and revealed this destiny, to trying to embrace something that falls pretty flat by comparison (at least to them). In other words, the doctrines of Mormonism are cherished and believed, but once the devil has destroyed the Prophet, everything else is empty by comparison (and understandably so). Believing in any other Jesus, would feel like believing in an incomplete deity (and that's because such a Jesus would be incomplete). I disagree. Thee are many wonderful and fully fulfilling religions beyond Mormonism. As I have explored them they are rich and deep and in many ways richer and deeper than Mormomism. Mormoms love to think everything outside of Mormomism in the religious world is empty and hollow. Most say this in utter ignorance of other faiths. that said, for me at least, before I accept another religion as truth I will scrutinize the same way I have Mormonism before I accept it. 2
Teancum Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 7 hours ago, ERayR said: But IMNSHO Mormonism places no limitations on God. At least in my understanding of it there are no limitations. In addition Mormonism has the authority and power to reveal God in his fullest. I have not found anything else that can provide any insights into understanding God that Mormonism doesn't provide. Admittedly it is not perfect but I have found none better. Many Mormon philosophers certain limit the Mormon God as finite and and not possessing of the Omni's.
Jeanne Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Teancum said: I disagree. Thee are many wonderful and fully fulfilling religions beyond Mormonism. As I have explored them they are rich and deep and in many ways richer and deeper than Mormomism. Mormoms love to think everything outside of Mormomism in the religious world is empty and hollow. Most say this in utter ignorance of other faiths. that said, for me at least, before I accept another religion as truth I will scrutinize the same way I have Mormonism before I accept it. I am not even looking.
Teancum Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed with Nehor. The historical "issues" just provide the excuse for some. For a lot of people who feel dissatisfied or disagreeable any excuse will do in the end. For some that excuse actually is a conversion to traditional Christianity. For some it's a walk away from any religion at all. But if someone wants to leave, they'll find a reason. Bull. The historical issues are a major problem for anyone who can examine them rationally and realize that their testimony was based on false information and q mythical narrative. I did not want to stop believing the truth claims of Momromis, nor was I lookimg for an excuse not to believe. It just became clear at least for me that the evidence was heavily weighted against the LDS truth claims. Perhaps people like you need to say such things and embrace them to maintain your own testimony. 2
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