Are LDS members in danger of losing their belief in Christ if they leave the church?

[UtahTexan]

27 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I am continuing to lose faith in the LDS Church given the following:

You know the new Doctrinal Mastery program in seminary everybody is so excited about?

 

Guess what already made it into the manual?

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrinal-mastery-new-testament-teacher-material/prophets-and-revelation?lang=eng

 

 

If you guessed President Nelson's proclamation that the November anti-gay marriage policy is revelation, you would be correct.

 
 

 

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

Not sure why that would make you lose your testimony......the Bible was even clear on the topic......

[Jeanne]

Shoot.  I was hoping this policy/revelation would dry up and blow away. 

[Johnnie Cake]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well at least you can walk on the ground Jesus walked, see the places he visited, because they exist. I find it very plausible that Jesus was real, not very plausible that anyone in the BoM existed since we have no gold plates, just some mens' testimony signed by one person, not themselves.

And we have the Dead Sea Scrolls which tells me there is significant proof of Jesus, since he's mentioned in them.  

But to each their own Johnnie, I appreciate your input!

I do not doubt the existence of a man named Jesus, just that this man was a god or performed super natural miracles outside of the boundaries of natural law

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I do not doubt the existence of a man named Jesus, just that this man was a god or performed super natural miracles outside of the boundaries of natural law

I do understand, and since the BoM had witnesses, as Jesus had witnesses, I guess they may be on equal footing. 

[Johnnie Cake]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I do understand, and since the BoM had witnesses, as Jesus had witnesses, I guess they may be on equal footing. 

Debunking the truth claims of the bible was actually quite easy once you take into account the unreliability of its claimed authors, the time lapse from event supposedly taking place to having been written down, the unreliability of memory and false memories especially over long periods of time etc.  Plus the magic world view held by Biblical peoples would always spin things they didn't understand in a magical manner and explanation.  And since I don't believe in magic...magical claims are dismissed accordingly

Edited July 6, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Sanpitch]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I do understand, and since the BoM had witnesses, as Jesus had witnesses, I guess they may be on equal footing. 

Well the BofM gold like plates were not put on public display for all to see, they was available for those with spiritual eyes or the plates could be seen under a cloth or maybe some plates that were already translated were available to look at by some.  Not exactly a solid proof of their existence. What was the big secret, what was he hiding?

Edited July 6, 2016 by Sanpitch

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Shoot.  I was hoping this policy/revelation would dry up and blow away. 

Nah.
It's bought the Church at least a decade before they need to reiterate or review any policy on the subject.

[Jeanne]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Nah.
It's bought the Church at least a decade before they need to reiterate or review any policy on the subject.

It is just so sad that in the meantime..the policy/revelation excludes children...and now they are going to teach it.  I am ill.

Ten years from now..it will be "we did not teach that'  "not what we meant" ..etc.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Jeanne

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think your box is the little one, not mine.

It seems to believe that leaving the gospel where a deep spiritual testimony used to be held is usually the result of one single thing.
I don't believe that history alone, or LGBT policies alone, or issues with polyandry, or textual anomalies in the BOM, or hurt feelings, cause a complete apostasy.  I think peoples thought processes and feelings are far more complex than that.

It's like someone saying Thomas B. Marsh chose to leave because his wife was accused of stealing cream strippings.  Overly simplistic and not the cause of his actual disaffection at all.

My "box" is encompassing enough that it recognizes people are complex creatures and leaving the Church is as complex a process as converting to or gaining a testimony of the Church.

My box is huge.  It will except or reject truth claims wherever they come from.  I am not boxed into preserving an LDS testimony or paradigm if it cannot withstand scrutiny.   Can you say the same? 

Doubt your doubts?  What a weak position.  Embrace your doubts.  Challenge them and challenge the status quo. Reject your a priori assumptions.   Question everything inclunding what you think God may be telling you through some metaphysical experience.  And even if it hurts abandoned that which you thought was true and which you think you have a testimony of even if it hurts like hell and jeopardizes your standing and reputation in the community that you have invested your entire life in as well as your family  

Small box?  Hardly.   Finding an excuse to leave?  Utter and total BS. 

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, ERayR said:

That could be a problem if one relied on Mormon philosophers for their salvation.

So in other words LDS philosophers are full of it as far as LDS doctrine goes?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Question everything inclunding what you think God may be telling you through some metaphysical experience.

I can think of no worse sin than doubting a witness you know came from God.
And I can think of no faster way to have God stop answering.

Edited July 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Shoot.  I was hoping this policy/revelation would dry up and blow away. 

Revelation doesn't dry up and blow away when it is actual revelation. This is actual revelation from God.

[ttribe]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

I can think of no worse sin than doubting a witness you know came from God.

The highlighted word (above) is the problem with your response.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

The highlighted word (above) is the problem with your response.

Not for me.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

Revelation doesn't dry up and blow away when it is actual revelation. This is actual revelation from God.

But sometimes we get a new revelation suited to changing circumstances.

Edited July 6, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I can think of no worse sin than doubting a witness you know came from God.
And I can think of no faster way to have God stop answering.

You don't know.  You just think you know.  And if God is there and he refuses to answer those who honestly seek and question things that they once thought true but which based on much evidence likely is not then this God does not deserve worship.

it seems to me you fear to do honest inquiry because your God is a viscous vengeful God. Most LDS are like this.  I feel sorry for you and them.  While what I have gone through had been and is extremely painful it is worth it.  

And for the record I am not looking for any so called excuse. That argument is from those who need to preserve their testimony at all costs. 

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

The highlighted word (above) is the problem with your response.

Oh don't point out the obvious. 

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Teancum said:

You don't know.  You just think you know.  And if God is there and he refuses to answer those who honestly seek and question things that they once thought true but which based on much evidence likely is not then this God does not deserve worship.

it seems to me you fear to do honest inquiry because your God is a viscous vengeful God. Most LDS are like this.  I feel sorry for you and them.  While what I have gone through had been and is extremely painful it is worth it.

And for the record I am not looking for any so called excuse. That argument is from those who need to preserve their testimony at all costs.

My God is neither vicious nor vengeful.
But my God has already given me witnesses, provided revelation through his prophets, and worked miracles.

To question my experiences because some archaeologist, historian, or scientist isn't able to prove something would be disingenuous.
And God HAS spoken in scripture on the results of questioning things he has already revealed.

And for the record, my belief that people will look for an excuse to leave if they are uncomfortable is not directed at you or anyone else in particular and is borne out as cognitive dissonance.  Some may leave because of the root cause of their discomfort, others do find other reasons not directly connected to the root cause as an excuse to leave.

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not for me.

So really?  How do your "know?"  Has God come to you face to face and told you that Joseph Smith really was the prophet of His One and only True Church in spite of all the nonesense which you feel is irreverent?  Pray do tell how do you really "know" outside of some metaphysical experience?  

 

[Mystery Meat]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You don't know.  You just think you know.  And if God is there and he refuses to answer those who honestly seek and question things that they once thought true but which based on much evidence likely is not then this God does not deserve worship.

it seems to me you fear to do honest inquiry because your God is a viscous vengeful God. Most LDS are like this.  I feel sorry for you and them.  While what I have gone through had been and is extremely painful it is worth it.  

And for the record I am not looking for any so called excuse. That argument is from those who need to preserve their testimony at all costs. 

I don't know this vengeful God you speak of; the God I know and have learned of as a member of the LDS Church certainly isn't that. Rather my God is perfectly loving and has given me sure witnesses and unmistakeable answers when I needed them and AFTER I struggled to find them, and yes even doubted I would ever get them, for over fifteen years. Yet, I never gave up. I continued exercising faith. For that much I was rewarded. My answers came in ways that transcend simple feelings and warm and fuzzies. My answer came by POWER of the Holy Ghost. It shook me. No made up feeling can cause what I felt; no self manipulation or delusion could replicate it. I don't know everything and what I don't know I am more than willing to take on faith. But there are things I absolutely 100%, no doubt whatsover, know. You can try all you want to tell me I don't, but I am telling you that I do. You don't have to believe me. I don't really care if you don't. You have chosen to abandon faith as a means of obtaining truth, and you will therefore never obtain eternal truth, and will doubt those of us who have reaped its fruits after decades of constant struggle to find it by faith (for that is what FAITH REALLY IS and no one can truly exercise it until there is real opposition).

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Wanting proof/evidence where faith is required is never going to work out well.
 

I agree where proof is concerned in matters of faith, but not where evidence is concerned in matters of faith.  I am the trier of fact with respect to matters concerning my faith, and I decide what the "Rules of Evidence" are, what evidence I will admit, what evidence I will exclude with respect to matters of faith, and how much weight I will give to any evidence I choose to admit.  And the Apostle Paul agrees with me (see, e.g., Hebrews 11:1).

Edited July 7, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[Jeanne]

39 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Revelation doesn't dry up and blow away when it is actual revelation. This is actual revelation from God.

Some say that there were other revelations too..at least at the time..the blacks/priesthood ..I guess I can only hope that wind blows again someday and they can fix this.  I don't expect that the Church should change their actual doctrine, they have that right.  But this policy did nothing to promote hetro marriage..it just hurt a lot of people. 

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I don't know this vengeful God you speak of; the God I know and have learned of as a member of the LDS Church certainly isn't that. Rather my God is perfectly loving and has given me sure witnesses and unmistakeable answers when I needed them and AFTER I struggled to find them, and yes even doubted I would ever get them, for over fifteen years. Yet, I never gave up. I continued exercising faith. For that much I was rewarded. My answers came in ways that transcend simple feelings and warm and fuzzies. My answer came by POWER of the Holy Ghost. It shook me. No made up feeling can cause what I felt; no self manipulation or delusion could replicate it. I don't know everything and what I don't know I am more than willing to take on faith. But there are things I absolutely 100%, no doubt whatsover, know. You can try all you want to tell me I don't, but I am telling you that I do. You don't have to believe me. I don't really care if you don't. You have chosen to abandon faith as a means of obtaining truth, and you will therefore never obtain eternal truth, and will doubt those of us who have reaped its fruits after decades of constant struggle to find it by faith (for that is what FAITH REALLY IS and no one can truly exercise it until there is real opposition).

I gave you a rep point for this because, largely, I agree with it, but my agreement comes with a caveat.  Concerning the passage that begins, "You have chosen to abandon faith ..."  I agree that Teancum would be better off by more fully embracing faith as a means to truth/revelation, and so on, but I cannot see into his heart such that I can determine that he has completely abandoned faith.  Perhaps he is at the, "If-thou-canst-do-no-more-than-desire-to-believe" stage, and I think he would be better off letting that desire work in him rather than trying, to use Elder Holland's memorable phrase, to "stuff a turkey through the beak," but I doubt he would be here on the Board if he had chosen to abandon faith.  My $0.02.  Your mileage may vary.  

[Mystery Meat]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I gave you a rep point for this because, largely, I agree with it, but my agreement comes with a caveat.  Concerning the passage that begins, "You have chosen to abandon faith ..."  I agree that Teancum would be better off by more fully embracing faith as a means to truth/revelation, and so on, but I cannot see into his heart such that I can determine that he has completely abandoned faith.  Perhaps he is at the, "If-thou-canst-do-no-more-than-desire-to-believe" stage, and I think he would be better off letting that desire work in him rather than trying, to use Elder Holland's memorable phrase, to "stuff a turkey through the beak," but I doubt he would be here on the Board if he had chosen to abandon faith.  My $0.02.  Your mileage may vary.  

That particular comment was a reply to past conversations with him where he has stated that faith is more or less an unreliable method of obtaining truth. Otherwise, I agree.

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

It is just so sad that in the meantime..the policy/revelation excludes children...and now they are going to teach it.  I am ill.

Ten years from now..it will be "we did not teach that'  "not what we meant" ..etc.

It does not exclude children, it protects them......