Does Repentance Require Suffering

[Rivers]

Accorduiding to D&C 19:17 we will suffer if we don't repent.  But doesn't repentance itself require suffering?  Alma the younger was racked with the pains of a damned soul as part of his repentence process.  Seems to me that either way we have to suffer.  Or can we repent without suffering?

[TJane]

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. 

I think Alma was an extreme case of someone who needed to repent - after all, he had been persecuting the saints at the time. And he needed an angelic intervention. Most of us don't do that kind of sinning, so perhaps we won't have that type of suffering involved in our repentance. If we were unconscious for days each time we were called to repentance, I doubt much work would ever get done.

Also, I think the scripture you quoted is talking about suffering eternally. If we don't repent, we'll be separated from Heavenly Father forever, and that is suffering that will never be over. Yes, we'll be happy/comfortable in whichever kingdom we end up in, but we will know that we could have been with Father, and that is an ongoing suffering of loss that won't end. I think the scriptures warn us of this over and over, because of the neverending pain that will cause us.

I think some of the suffering we go through in repentance is sorrow for what we did (or didn't) do and knowing what pain our actions caused others, including the pain that Christ and Heavenly Father feel because they love us and know that our actions bring us misery when we sin. The suffering we feel as we repent would, I think, be in proportion to the sin - "small" sins would have small suffering and pain, and "large" sins would require longer or more intense suffering as we realize what we've done.

So, perhaps, if you sin a small sin, one you haven't done before, and repent quickly, there might not be any suffering to speak of.

[Duncan]

I think we are punished by our sins so much than for them and the mighty change is mighty hard

[bluebell]

If experiencing godly sorrow is the same as suffering, then the answer is probably yes.  No one can repent without understanding that they need to.  But on the other hand, if by suffering you mean that people must suffer in order to make up for the wrong that they did, then the answer is no.  

Maybe the difference is between suffering because of our sins, and suffering for our sins.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Rivers said:

Accorduiding to D&C 19:17 we will suffer if we don't repent.  But doesn't repentance itself require suffering?  Alma the younger was racked with the pains of a damned soul as part of his repentence process.  Seems to me that either way we have to suffer.  Or can we repent without suffering?

I think repentance entails suffering to the degree of of personal light and knowledge we have sinned against (such as Alma the younger). But it is not always required, such as when someone learns the word of wisdom and simply begins keeping it. Or forgives someone, or unburdens himself of a lie. In many ways, repentance is a blessing.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Rivers said:

Accorduiding to D&C 19:17 we will suffer if we don't repent.  But doesn't repentance itself require suffering?  Alma the younger was racked with the pains of a damned soul as part of his repentence process.  Seems to me that either way we have to suffer.  Or can we repent without suffering?

I can't speak for others, but usually I don't seem to experience much if any suffering in repenting. I would hazard that most of my sins are sins of omission rather than commission - in other words I don't do the things I should for others. I am not saying I have not suffered for my sins - I believe I have. But repenting of them, I try to undo what I did or to correct my mistakes, and that seems to bring me release from guilt and suffering rather than more suffering. It seems to bring peace to my soul, and a sense that my repentance is complete. I can't think of any instance when praying for forgiveness that I felt I was suffering, although there have been occasions when I wondered if I was I was fully repentant while praying, which was probably God telling me I needed to do something or tell someone I was sorry.

[Stargazer]

Not really.

The only mandatory suffering would appear to be the acknowledgement that one has done wrong.  I can testify from personal experience that recognition of my guilt has definitely caused me distress, suffering if you will, and so in a sense, Yes to your question, but that's not the suffering you probably mean.

[carbon dioxide]

Not always.  To repent of breaking the Sabbath probably is not going to involve suffering unless it involves giving up an activity one likes to do on Sunday. 

[The Nehor]

No, sin is suffering. Repentance is not. I have heard the idea that people must suffer for their sins as part of the repentance process but I cannot find any scriptural mandate. In my own life I find that most repentance is just applauded by heaven and then is over with it.

Most of the time when suffering is endured it is to get the person to realize they need to repent and not part of repenting once they do.

[Maestrophil]

I tend to feel that we will suffer the consequences of our choices, and that may or may not entail suffering.  Guilt, shame, broken relationships, embarrassment, bodily harm, reduced self-esteem etc...  many of these consequences and more can come with certain sins, and often result from deciding to need to repent - which is also a consequence of the sinful choice - but not necessarily part of being forgiven, just a consequence of needing to admit, confess and forsake.

 

Don't know if that made sense, but it did in my feeble brain.  :-)

 

MP

[Jeanne]

I was just fine with the repentance process and was anxious to let go of my sins and even to forgive myself.  This was up and until the Bishop assigned me the Miracle of Forgiveness to read.  I was so laden with guilt that it felt like pain and my already low self-esteem took a beating.  It is a process and probably different for all of us.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I was just fine with the repentance process and was anxious to let go of my sins and even to forgive myself.  This was up and until the Bishop assigned me the Miracle of Forgiveness to read.  I was so laden with guilt that it felt like pain and my already low self-esteem took a beating.  It is a process and probably different for all of us.

That book's purpose seems to be to wake people up to the seriousness of sin, a real problem at the time. If you have acknowledged it then focus on the parts about how to repent and the consolation at the end.

President Kimball visited a prison and said they were largely good people who made a mistake. I think he would feel the Same about you with your sins as well.

[Meadowchik]

In addition to what others have said, the reversal of inertia is usually painful to some extent, just not as painful as continuing to sin.

[Ahab]

In KJV speak to suffer means to allow, like when our Lord said to suffer little children to come unto him, and yes we need to allow the Holy Spirit to cleanse us and refine us through what is referred to as the refiner's fire as we repent and come unto Christ or come closer to Christ.

[Eek!]

I do not think it is God's will that any of His children suffer. 

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I do not think it is God's will that any of His children suffer. 

Try thinking of feeling sorrow for your own sins as a form of suffering.

Do you think God doesn't ever want you to experience sorrow for your own sins?  I think he wants us to suffer that way only enough to help us repent from our sins, but still that requires at least a little bit of suffering. 

[Jeanne]

I know I just cried a lot. 

[Eek!]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Try thinking of feeling sorrow for your own sins as a form of suffering.

Do you think God doesn't ever want you to experience sorrow for your own sins?  I think he wants us to suffer that way only enough to help us repent from our sins, but still that requires at least a little bit of suffering. 

Of course we have to recognize that we've done something wrong, and that recognition is usually painful. 

If healing (rather than punishment) is the goal, then God is much more interested in seeing us make the necessary course-corrections and quickly move ahead with doing the best we can.  Once we have recognized our wrong choice, there is no reason not to immediately make that course-correction.  Indulging in "sorrow for our sins" can make us think that we have "blown it", and we can literally lose years to feelings of being unworthy.  The Atonement has the power to instantly free us from that burden.

Positive actions are how we do our part to contribute to healing.  Even if for some reason we can't do those positive actions for the person we wronged, I think we are inter-connected enough that whatever we do for the least of our brothers, in a sense we do for all. 

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I do not think it is God's will that any of His children suffer. 

The he is a failure as a world designer.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Of course we have to recognize that we've done something wrong, and that recognition is usually painful. 

If healing (rather than punishment) is the goal, then God is much more interested in seeing us make the necessary course-corrections and quickly move ahead with doing the best we can.  Once we have recognized our wrong choice, there is no reason not to immediately make that course-correction.  Indulging in "sorrow for our sins" can make us think that we have "blown it", and we can literally lose years to feelings of being unworthy.  The Atonement has the power to instantly free us from that burden.

Positive actions are how we do our part to contribute to healing.  Even if for some reason we can't do those positive actions for the person we wronged, I think we are inter-connected enough that whatever we do for the least of our brothers, in a sense we do for all. 

 

 

 

So then you agree with me that God does want us to suffer, at least a little bit.

Glad we got that cleared up so quickly without a lot of argument about it.

[MDalby]

 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
(D&C 138:58-9)

One is not repentant until he bares his soul and admits his actions without excuses or rationalizations, until he has really and truly suffered. Suffering is a very important part of repentance. One has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. 
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.88)

We must remember that repentance is more than just saying, "I am sorry." It is more than tears in one's eyes. It is more than a half a dozen prayers. Repentance means suffering. If a person hasn't suffered, he hasn't repented. I don't care how many times he says he has. If he hasn't suffered, he hasn't repented. He has got to go through a change in his system whereby he suffers and then forgiveness is a possibility. Nobody can be forgiven unless there is adequate repentance. You bishops remember that, will you! The Savior can do almost anything in the world, but he can't forgive somebody who hasn't repented. 
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.99) 

Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.
They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world.
All who have been filthy and who would not receive the truth and have not had the testimony of Jesus Christ, must suffer the torments of the damned until they are purged from their iniquity, for the blood of Jesus Christ will not cleanse them from their sins without their own individual suffering.
Nevertheless they shall come out of the prison eventually. These are the rest of the dead, spoken of by John, who do not live during the millennial reign, but afterwards; and these are assigned to a kingdom known as the telestial kingdom, and they are denied the privilege of dwelling with the Father and the Son, "worlds without end." The Lord will do for them the best he can under the circumstances, but since they have denied his power and have dwelt in iniquity, they cannot receive the blessings of the kingdom of God. \
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22-23)

Another condition of repentance is suffering or punishment for the sin. In the words of Alma, "Repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment." (Alma 42:16.)

Where there has been sin, there must be suffering.

Perhaps the greatest statement of this principle in all the scriptures is the revelation the Lord gave to the Prophet Joseph Smith in March 1830. (See D&C 19.) Here the Lord reminds us of "the great day of judgment" when all will be judged according to their works. (D&C 19:3.) He explains that the "endless" or "eternal" torment or punishment that comes from sin is not punishment without end. It is the punishment of God, who is endless and eternal. (See D&C 19:10-12.)
In this setting, the Savior of the world commands us to repent and keep his commandments. "Repent," he commands, "lest … your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
"For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
"But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
"Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink--
"Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
"Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken." (D&C 19:15-20.)
As we consider these sobering words of the Savior, we realize that there is something very peculiar about the state of mind or "heart" of the person who deliberately commits sin in the expectation that he or she will speedily and comfortably repent and continue as a servant of God, preaching repentance and asking others to come unto Christ. I will illustrate the peculiarity of this attitude with an analogy.
The mother of a large family is burdened almost past the point of endurance. Every waking hour is spent serving the needs of her large family: meals, mending, transporting, counseling, caring for those who are sick, comforting those who mourn, and administering to every other need a mother can understand. She has committed herself to do everything within her power to serve the needs of her children.
She is giving her life for them. The children know she will attempt to carry whatever load is placed upon her. Most of them are considerate and do all they can to minimize her burden. But some, knowing of her willingness to serve, heedlessly pile more and more tasks on the weary mother. "Don't worry about it" is their attitude; "she'll carry it. She said she would. Drop it on Mom, and we'll just have a good time."
In this analogy, I am obviously likening the heedless children to those who sin in the expectation that someone else will bear the burden of suffering. The one who bears the burden is our Savior.
Am I suggesting that the benefits of the Atonement are not available for the person who heedlessly sins? Of course not. But I am suggesting that there is a relationship between sin and suffering that is not understood by people who knowingly sin in the expectation that all the burden of suffering will be borne by Another, that the sin is all theirs but that the suffering is all His. That is not the way. Repentance, which is an assured passage to an eternal destination, is nevertheless not a free ride.
Let us recall two scriptures: (1) "Repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment" (Alma 42:16); and (2) the Savior said that he had suffered these things for all, "that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I" (D&C 19:16-17).
This obviously means that the unrepentant transgressor must suffer for his own sins. Does it also mean that a person who repents does not need to suffer at all because the entire punishment is borne by the Savior? That cannot be the meaning because it would be inconsistent with the Savior's other teachings. What is meant is that the person who repents does not need to suffer "even as" the Savior suffered for that sin. Sinners who are repenting will experience some suffering, but because of their repentance and the Atonement, they will not experience the full, "exquisite" extent of eternal torment the Savior suffered.
President Spencer W. Kimball, who gave such comprehensive teachings on repentance and forgiveness, said that personal suffering "is a very important part of repentance. One has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. … If a person hasn't suffered, he hasn't repented." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, pp. 88, 99.)
The Savior taught this principle when he said that his atoning sacrifice was for "all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered." (2 Ne. 2:7.) The repentant sinner who comes to Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit has been through a process of personal pain and suffering for sin. He understands the meaning of Alma's statement that "none but the truly penitent are saved." (Alma 42:24.)
Bruce C. Hafen has described how some people look "for shortcuts [to repentance] and easy answers, thinking that quick confessions or breezy apologies alone are enough." (The Broken Heart, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1989, p. 150.) President Kimball said, "Very frequently people think they have repented and are worthy of forgiveness when all they have done is to express sorrow or regret at the unfortunate happening." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 87.) There is a big difference between the "godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance" (2 Cor. 7:10), which involves personal suffering, and the easy and relatively painless sorrow for being caught, or the misplaced sorrow Mormon described as "the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin" (Morm. 2:13).
Alma the Younger certainly understood that easy and painless sorrow was not a sufficient basis for repentance. His experience, related in detail in the Book of Mormon, is our best scriptural illustration of the fact that the process of repentance is filled with personal suffering for sin.
Alma said that after he was stopped in his wicked course, he was "in the darkest abyss" (Mosiah 27:29), "racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
"Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell." (Alma 36:12-13.)
He tells how "the very thought of coming into the presence of … God did rack [his] soul with inexpressible horror." (Alma 36:14.) He speaks of being "harrowed up by the memory of [his] many sins." (Alma 36:17.) After three [page 73] days and three nights of what he called "the most bitter pain and anguish of soul," he cried out to the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy and received "a remission of [his] sins." (Alma 38:8.)
All of our personal experience confirms the fact that we must endure personal suffering in the process of repentance--and for serious transgressions, that suffering can be severe and prolonged.
In the August 1990 issue of the Ensign, a repenting transgressor who was excommunicated describes his personal feelings: he speaks of "tearful hours," "wish[ing] to be covered by a million mountains," "crushed by the shame," "dark blackness," and "anguish … as wide as eternity." (Pp. 22-24.)
Why is it necessary for us to suffer on the way to repentance for serious transgressions? We tend to think of the results of repentance as simply cleansing us from sin. But that is an incomplete view of the matter. A person who sins is like a tree that bends easily in the wind. On a windy and rainy day, the tree bends so deeply against the ground that the leaves become soiled with mud, like sin. If we focus only on cleaning the leaves, the weakness in the tree that allowed it to bend and soil its leaves may remain. Similarly, a person who is merely sorry to be soiled by sin will sin again in the next high wind. The susceptibility to repetition continues until the tree has been strengthened.
When a person has gone through the process that results in what the scriptures call a broken heart and a contrite spirit, the Savior does more than cleanse that person from sin. He also gives him or her new strength. That strengthening is essential for us to realize the purpose of the cleansing, which is to return to our Heavenly Father. To be admitted to his presence, we must be more than clean. We must also be changed from a morally weak person who has sinned into a strong person with the spiritual stature to dwell in the presence of God. We must, as the scripture says, "[become] a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord." (Mosiah 3:19.) This is what the scripture means in its explanation that a person who has repented of his sins will "forsake them." (D&C 58:43.) Forsaking sins is more than resolving not to repeat them. Forsaking involves a fundamental change in the individual.
King Benjamin and Alma both speak of a mighty change of heart. King Benjamin's congregation described that mighty change by saying that they had "no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually." (Mosiah 5:2.) Alma illustrated that change of heart when he described a people who "awoke unto God," "put their trust in" him, and were "faithful until the end." (Alma 5:7, 13.) He challenged others to "look forward with an eye of faith" to the time when we will "stand before God to be judged" according to our deeds. (Alma 5:15.) Persons who have had that kind of change in their hearts have attained the strength and stature to dwell with God. That is what we call being saved. 
(Dallin H. Oaks, "Sin and Suffering," Ensign, July 1992, pp. 71-72)

Dallin H Oaks, Sin and Suffering BYU Address

Edited May 17, 2016 by MDalby

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The he is a failure as a world designer.

Excellent reply!

The presence of suffering in this world seems to prove that God is either cruel or incompetent. But He is neither.

God does not devalue our freedom of choice by imposing His choices upon us. Nor is he threatened when we choose to learn our lessons the hard way.

This world is not our real home. By way of analogy, this world is sort of like an elaborate video game, and we have forgotten that we are somewhere safe while we play this video game. It is so engrossing that when our character is wronged or harmed or experiences loss, we think that WE have been wronged or harmed or experienced loss. We have forgotten who and what we really are.

This probably sounds like insanity, but before you dismiss it completely, remember what Jesus taught about turning the other cheek – how could that be anything other than a betrayal of self, unless the assault actually had no real effect? Even moreso, consider how Jesus reacted to his arrest, trial, and crucifixion. He acted as if he was perfectly safe all along, despite all appearances to the contrary. He didn't even hold it against his executioners! And then he demonstrated that indeed he had been perfectly safe all along by rising from the dead.

And remember that when we see him, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

[Eek!]

45 minutes ago, MDalby said:

Suffering is a very important part of repentance. One has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. 

Repentance means suffering. If a person hasn't suffered, he hasn't repented.

I'm sure you can suffer and be forgiven and if that works for you, then go for it,  That has been my path as well, I spent years knocking myself out at it, but in retrospect I think the suffering was unnecessary IF the Atonement is real. 

I do not think God values vengeance in any form.  I do think He values the mighty change in heart. 

But what do I know... I'm just a purple cartoon cat. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

I do not think God values vengeance in any form.  I do think He values the mighty change in heart. 

But what do I know... I'm just a purple cartoon cat. 

Hi Eek, and welcome to the board. I wanted to rep you, but you'll have to stick around a bit for that... I think when you reach 25 posts you can receive rep points.

[Eek!]

17 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Hi Eek, and welcome to the board. I wanted to rep you, but you'll have to stick around a bit for that... I think when you reach 25 posts you can receive rep points.

Thank you... but I don't know means to be "rep"ed.  

Does it require suffering??