Why would any LGBT person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS?

[Mystery Meat]

In a recent thread about homosexuality, a poster posited the question that acts as the title to this thread. The underlying discussion was interesting, and I have spent a great deal of time considering the question. Of course, I cannot answer the question for every (any) gay man or woman. But what I can do is communicate my feelings on the matter. I believe the thoughts below are rooted in LDS doctrine and/or scripture, but acknowledge that some of what follows is largely my educated opinion. 

Let me start be rephrasing the question a little bit: What does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have to offer individuals who find themselves attracted to those of their gender?

In short, everything. But that's not really a very descriptive answer. Let's a elaborate a bit. First, and by way of review, the Church boldly declares that man's ultimate potential is divine. In every way possible and imaginable the potential is directly connected to marriage. Marriage is central to EVERYTHING we teach and do in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Without marriage there is no fulfilling our divine potential and there is no fullness of joy. There may be enlightenment, a measure of happiness and some amounts of progression, but there will be an end to how far someone can progress.

Modern day scripture (not to mention a heavy does of logical reasoning when studying ancient scripture) declare that marriage is sanctioned only between man and woman. Only a man and a woman, married by one holding sacred authority and such marriage being sealed by the holy spirit of promise, can progress into eternity with spiritual offspring and increase. Only such as these will find a fullness of joy. 

Some will argue that this is not fair. Some will quibble about whether a loving god would make such a condition. Yet, for all the natural man is an enemy to God. Each of us has the sacred duty to put off the natural man. There are plenty of evidences of a natural man in each of us: some are born with or develop mental and physical illness, some are born with or develop an inordinate amount of sexual attraction to those of the opposite sex, some are born with or develop an attraction to children, some are born with or develop an insatiable greed, some are born with or develop eating disorders, and, yes, some are born with or develop an attraction to others of their gender. The seriousness both culturally and spiritually of each of these obviously varies, yet each require the Atonement for final victory. Each require reliance on the Savior and His loving grace. In that moment of victory, I believe each of us will have our natures changed in some measure. The gay will be straight, the lame will be whole, and imperfect will be redeemed (assuming they have applied the Atoning Blood). 

The Church offers, in a way impossible without it, complete access to the Atonement and progression throughout the eternities. Remember: the Church is designed to help those who so desire a place in the Celestial Kingdom. Other churches can help people reach certain levels of glory, but fail in getting its members to the highest levels of eternal happiness.

I do not mean to say that everyone desires this. I believe there will be many who would rather not be straight and would settle for a lesser kingdom. This is much like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Instead of trusting an eternity of law and order, such will damn themselves to an eternity of singleness. In other words, rather than live with God in accordance with divine and eternal order, these individuals will cut themselves off and choose to remain single. Remember: only those in the Celestial Kingdom will be with the ones they love in the eternities. While there may be some association with friends and loved ones in lesser kingdoms, the relationship will not be what it was on earth. There will be no bond of marriage; there will be no tie that binds; and there will be no sex and the closeness it brings. This choice is more than likely being made today, in the here and now. I am not sure that such a choice will be available in the hereafter if choices made in the present disqualify us. Sadly, I also think there are many members who are sealed in the temple who are also choosing to be single in the eternities because of choices they are making, including the decision to condemn God  for not allowing SSM in His plan for our salvation. 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (AKA the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ) offers us all the same thing: eternal increase, offspring, happiness, glory and love. This is true regardless of our personal weaknesses or the ways in which we chose to identify ourselves.

[The Nehor]

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

If you believe there is a viable alternative then those words are unconvincing. I am convinced that there is not.

[Ahab]

As someone who still considers people of my same sex to be sexually attractive and has no problem with it I would say that the greatest blessing available through the Church and the power of God is the ability/ power to love everybody, whatever sex they happen to be.

Too often people get hung up on their own sexual preferences as if whatever sex they prefer is the only sex they should have or want to have sexual relations with.   But such things need to be considered in a greater more eternal perspective.  Some bridling or restraint of sexual passions and preferences needs to occur while considering the beauty and attractiveness of each person and their own particular sex.

Both men and women are sexually attractive/ desirable/ beautiful/ wonderful, each in their own way or ways, and to not be able to see that is simply short-sightedness/ blindness.

So to everyone,  STOP thinking that only your sexual preference should dictate who or what sex you should have sexual relations with.

Love is about a lot more than sex and only with someone of the opposite sex can we have all that our Father has, including our own children,  forever.

[cinepro]

I suspect the answer to your question is that most LDS with SSA were raised in the Church and formed their religious beliefs and habits before their sexual identity was manifested, so there is a strong desire to somehow reconcile the two. 

Compare that with an investigator with SSA.  What does the Church have to offer them?

[Mystery Meat]

4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I suspect the answer to your question is that most LDS with SSA were raised in the Church and formed their religious beliefs and habits before their sexual identity was manifested, so there is a strong desire to somehow reconcile the two. 

Compare that with an investigator with SSA.  What does the Church have to offer them?

See my above post.

[Scott Lloyd]

As much as to ask, "Why would any unrepentant person guilty of grave sins that make him ineligible to take upon himself the covenants offered by the Church of Jesus Christ want to be a member of that Church?"

The answer: He probably wouldn't, if his attitude were to remain unchanged.

But the miracle of conversion occurs somewhere in the world every single day. That is what we hope for. That is why my eldest son is out preaching the gospel, along with some 75,000 other young men, young women and senior couples throughout the world.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I suspect the answer to your question is that most LDS with SSA were raised in the Church and formed their religious beliefs and habits before their sexual identity was manifested, so there is a strong desire to somehow reconcile the two. 

Compare that with an investigator with SSA.  What does the Church have to offer them?

Eternal life.

[Storm Rider]

I fail to see the need to separate a gay person from the rest of God's children.  If an individual is seeking to know the love of their Heavenly Father and have a relationship with Jesus Christ they will find it and a great many other things in the restored church of Jesus Christ.  

What an individual does with their sins, whether remain committed to sin or willing to repent and accept the name of Christ, the choice is theirs.  

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I fail to see the need to separate a gay person from the rest of God's children.  If an individual is seeking to know the love of their Heavenly Father and have a relationship with Jesus Christ they will find it and a great many other things in the restored church of Jesus Christ.  

What an individual does with their sins, whether remain committed to sin or willing to repent and accept the name of Christ, the choice is theirs.  

Reminds me of the prayer of King Lamoni:

Quote

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead.

(Alma 22:18, emphasis mine)

[Sky]

38 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I fail to see the need to separate a gay person from the rest of God's children.  If an individual is seeking to know the love of their Heavenly Father and have a relationship with Jesus Christ they will find it and a great many other things in the restored church of Jesus Christ.  

What an individual does with their sins, whether remain committed to sin or willing to repent and accept the name of Christ, the choice is theirs.  

 

Yes, except that for in order for a gay person to live the gospel as taught by the LDS Church, it likely will mean a lifetime of celibacy, or being married to somebody of the opposite sex that they might not necessarily be sexually attracted to.  That is a huge sacrifice.  Not everybody can do that.    

Straight members of the Church are not expected or asked to do this.  

How many single, middle-aged men do we typically see in any given ward??  

This has some pretty big implications, don't you think?  It hasn't had a happy ending for a lot of people.     

 

Edited to add: If Storm Rider and Scott Lloyd and others on here can honestly tell me they'd be willing to make a sacrifice such as this for the gospel's sake, then their words will carry much more weight with me.  Then we can talk.  But you guys are not LGBT, are you?  You don't fully acknowledge the weight and the pain of the LGBT Mormon experience.  So we will never know for sure.  

  

Edited March 7, 2016 by Sky

[thesometimesaint]

There is only one reason for a LGBT person to become or remain a member of the Church. They believe it.  But such can be said for all of us.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Sky said:

Edited to add: If Storm Rider and Scott Lloyd and others on here can honestly tell me they'd be willing to make a sacrifice such as this for the gospel's sake, then their words will carry much more weight with me.  Then we can talk.  But you guys are not LGBT, are you?  You don't fully acknowledge the weight and the pain of the LGBT Mormon experience.  So we will never know for sure.  

  

I'm pretty sure I can conceive of the weight and pain of not being able to fulfill one's dreams of marriage and a family in mortality.

For what its worth, I was not successful at finding a marriage partner until rather late in life, age 41. Throughout my life leading up to that point, I remained celibate and active in the Church and would have continued to do so due to my faith in and witness of the gospel plan. I knew that, whatever the future held in store, I would have been far worse off had I succumbed to temptation.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I suspect the answer to your question is that most LDS with SSA were raised in the Church and formed their religious beliefs and habits before their sexual identity was manifested, so there is a strong desire to somehow reconcile the two. 

Compare that with an investigator with SSA.  What does the Church have to offer them?

The same as any other investigator with any other attraction. It depends on how strong the attraction, and how he responds to the enticements* around him considering he is a steward of the light of Christ which he receives, just like anyone else.

It was not by anyone’s assessment of my disadvantages that I was converted to the Restored Gospel. Compared to the light that I saw, I had no inclination to define myself by them and the light was greater than they all.

* 2 Nephi 9:39; Mosiah 3:19; 2 Nephi 26:33

[Sky]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm pretty sure I can conceive of the weight and pain of not being able to fulfill one's dreams of marriage and a family in mortality.

For what its worth, I was not successful at finding a marriage partner until rather late in life, age 41. Throughout my life leading up to that point, I remained celibate and would have continued to do so due to my faith in and witness of the gospel plan. I knew that, whatever the future held in store, I would have been far worse off had I succumbed to temptation.

 

41 is older, but I'm sort of assuming you are with a woman that you are sexually attracted to (not that it's any of my business).  A gay person (Kinsey 6) still does not really get to have that at any age.  

Good for you on being able to hold out for so long, though.  You have a taste of what it's like to be LGBT/SSA and Mormon, but not the whole plate.     

[stemelbow]

One day things will change and we'll stop seeing this as gay people need to change and then they'll be happy because we really know stuff, to a what can gay people bring to us, our Church that we are missing?  Probably plenty.  But of course, they aren't the only ones who often find themselves at odds with the Church. 

If the Church were far more about embracing people, opening it's arms across the globe, than it is about exclusiveness and pride, we'd probably get more out of it, as a whole.  And we'd probably put more into it.  But I'm a hopeful wishful dreamer, I guess.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Sky said:

 

41 is older, but I'm sort of assuming you are with a woman that you are sexually attracted to (not that it's any of my business).  A gay person (Kinsey 6) still does not really get to have that at any age.  

Good for you on being able to hold out for so long, though.  You have a taste of what it's like to be LGBT/SSA and Mormon, but not the whole plate.     

I had no guarantee, until it happened for me, whether it would or not. Conceivably, I might have had to hold out for the rest of my life. Some members of the Church who are single end up doing so.

Not everyone is Kinsey 6. Some are Kinsey 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5.

And in any event, we all have carnal and other challenges that we must deal with.

I have a great deal of sympathy for those who are permanently disabled, who must forego any chance in mortality of sexual fulfillment, but other forms of fulfillment as well.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

One day things will change and we'll stop seeing this as gay people need to change and then they'll be happy because we really know stuff, to a what can gay people bring to us, our Church that we are missing?  Probably plenty.  But of course, they aren't the only ones who often find themselves at odds with the Church. 

If the Church were far more about embracing people, opening it's arms across the globe, than it is about exclusiveness and pride, we'd probably get more out of it, as a whole.  And we'd probably put more into it.  But I'm a hopeful wishful dreamer, I guess.

The Church is all about inclusiveness and embracing people. But we cannot change the laws and commandments of God.

 

[busybee]

1 hour ago, Sky said:

 

Yes, except that for in order for a gay person to live the gospel as taught by the LDS Church, it likely will mean a lifetime of celibacy, or being married to somebody of the opposite sex that they might not necessarily be sexually attracted to.  That is a huge sacrifice.  Not everybody can do that.    

Straight members of the Church are not expected or asked to do this.  

How many single, middle-aged men do we typically see in any given ward??  

This has some pretty big implications, don't you think?  It hasn't had a happy ending for a lot of people.     

 

Edited to add: If Storm Rider and Scott Lloyd and others on here can honestly tell me they'd be willing to make a sacrifice such as this for the gospel's sake, then their words will carry much more weight with me.  Then we can talk.  But you guys are not LGBT, are you?  You don't fully acknowledge the weight and the pain of the LGBT Mormon experience.  So we will never know for sure.  

  

Is the same not required of those (heterosexual) who do not have the opportunity to marry? This is not a sacrifice that is unique to those who are LGBT. Unmarried heterosexuals too have to remain celibate to remain worthy members of the church if they never marry.

 

And yes, I would be willing to make that sacrifice if it were required of me.

[consiglieri]

I think LDS Church leadership is doing everything in its power to make sure no LGBT person will want to be a member of the Church.

 

So far, they're doing a pretty good job.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I think LDS Church leadership is doing everything in its power to make sure no LGBT person will want to be a member of the Church.

 

So far, they're doing a pretty good job.

Good point.  Things will continue to boil.  Last week I sat with a good friend who is gay, and was raised in the Church.  He still loves it but feels rejected.  It's not really the position that bothers him so much these days, as he can't change that.  It's the messaging that hurts him.  If ya think about what resulted from that policy change fiasco some months ago?  Nothing really but hurt feelings. 

[stemelbow]

53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church is all about inclusiveness and embracing people. But we cannot change the laws and commandments of God.

 

I really do wish you were correct in your first sentence there, Scott.  But sadly, it seems evident you are mistaken.  But we're all mistaken about something, so cheer up about that. 

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Good point.  Things will continue to boil.  Last week I sat with a good friend who is gay, and was raised in the Church.  He still loves it but feels rejected.  It's not really the position that bothers him so much these days, as he can't change that.  It's the messaging that hurts him.  If ya think about what resulted from that policy change fiasco some months ago?  Nothing really but hurt feelings. 

You mean like when Elder Bednar said there are no homosexual members of the Church?

Elder Bednar just erased your friend out of existence . . . at least as a Church member.

How hard would it have been for Elder Bednar to drop the posturing and semantics and just answer the question with, "We as Mormons need to do everything possible to make everybody feel welcome in our church, regardless of their sexual orientation."

Or is that just too obvious?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I really do wish you were correct in your first sentence there, Scott.  But sadly, it seems evident you are mistaken.  But we're all mistaken about something, so cheer up about that. 

I'm not mistaken.

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Good point.  Things will continue to boil.  Last week I sat with a good friend who is gay, and was raised in the Church.  He still loves it but feels rejected.  It's not really the position that bothers him so much these days, as he can't change that.  It's the messaging that hurts him.  If ya think about what resulted from that policy change fiasco some months ago?  Nothing really but hurt feelings. 

The policy update -- revelatory and inspired as it was -- was necessary to maintain boundaries in a world that is loping off into ungodliness in many ways. Perhaps the hurt feelings were inevitable if that was to happen.

Again, no one can change the laws and commandments of God, especially not anointed prophets and apostles.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Sky]

1 hour ago, busybee said:

Is the same not required of those (heterosexual) who do not have the opportunity to marry? This is not a sacrifice that is unique to those who are LGBT. Unmarried heterosexuals too have to remain celibate to remain worthy members of the church if they never marry.

 

And yes, I would be willing to make that sacrifice if it were required of me.

I think Elder Marlin K. Jensen hit the nail on the head with this:  (see: http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/jensen.html).  But he is now an emeritus member of the Seventy and a Democrat after all, so what does he know!?  

"And yes, some people argue sometimes, well, for the gay person or the lesbian person, we're not asking more of them than we're asking of the single woman who never marries. But I long ago found in talking to them that we do ask for something different: In the case of the gay person, they really have no hope. A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church. But a gay person who truly is committed to that way of life in his heart and mind doesn't have that hope. And to live life without hope on such a core issue, I think, is a very difficult thing."

"We, again, as a church need to be, I think, even more charitable than we've been, more outreaching in a sense. A religion produces a culture, and culture has its stereotypes, has its mores. It's very difficult, for instance, in our culture not to be a returning missionary. What about the young man who chooses not to go, or the parents who marry and for whatever reasons don't have children, or the young woman who grows old without marrying, or the divorced person? I think we can be quite hard -- in a sense unwittingly, but nevertheless hard -- on those people in our culture, because we have cultural expectations, cultural ideals, and if you measure up to them, it's a wonderful life. If you don't, it could be very difficult. …"

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Sky