Eliza R. Snow "Bombshell"

[JLHPROF]

According to this article http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3613791-155/shocking-historical-finding-mormon-icon-eliza in the Trib today a scholar Andrea Radke-Moss just revealed her research that indicates Eliza R. Snow suffered a gang rape in Missouri that left her unable to have children.

There are several elements in this article that I think are worth discussing, even aside from the obvious shocking news.
1. The unsubstantiated legend that Eliza miscarried after an altercation with Emma becomes far less likely.

2. The conclusion of the scholar that Joseph "offered her marriage as a way of promising her that she would still have eternal offspring and that she would be a mother in Zion" seems a big assumption based on little evidence.  Now I haven't read the paper and its sources, but it seems to me that she and Joseph could have married for any number of reasons, not the least of which would be revelation.  I don't like the immediate jump to "pity marriage".

3. The secondary conclusion that "For Snow, polygamy was about "spiritual comfort following a savage crime that made her infertile, and a protective measure in the context of trauma and sexual violence that Mormon women experienced" is also something that may not be in evidence.
The implication that she would only have participated in plural marriage because of this event is a stretch.  Eliza firmly believed the doctrines behind living polygamy, and she showed on numerous occasions and I think she would have lived polygamy regardless of previous trauma.

4. The primary source for this claim is second hand recollection in an autobiography of hearsay.  Could be true, but is that the only evidence?

5. I do like the final question though - Did Snow's experience prompt her "to seek her Mother in Heaven?"

Does anyone know any further information - perhaps attended the symposium?

 

Edited March 4, 2016 by JLHPROF

[VideoGameJunkie]

I posted the same article in the news section. I didn't want to post it here because the mods told me to stop posting sex threads.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I posted the same article in the news section. I didn't want to post it here because the mods told me to stop posting sex threads.

Then don't make it ALL about the sex - while that is clearly a part there are personal,  historical, and doctrinal issues that can be discussed without getting bogged down in the graphic.

[Duncan]

I heard..that after Joseph Smith died Eliza Snow had a vision of him so at the very least she was close to him. 

[JulieM]

If true, this is horrible and no woman should have to suffer through that.  I have a great deal of respect for Eliza R. Snow. I always think of her as a great woman, strong and valiant.

With all that being said, this has to be viewed as not first hand and a 50 year old reminiscence of a child overhearing her grandmother and friends talk.  I hope it's not true.

And, if it did happen, it's got nothing to do with justifying polygamy. Any good man could offer her the same without offering her to be one of many of his wives.

I'm just looking at this as any historian would look at it (with some skeptism).

I hope it didn't happen to her. It's tragic if it's true.

[strappinglad]

It might be true , but the author seems to be following the National Inquirer rules of story verification.

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

It might be true , but the author seems to be following the National Inquirer rules of story verification.

True.

I also question whether this would have been discussed (pretty taboo for that time to discuss openly at all back then) in the presence of a child. Maybe they didn't know she was there?  But if so, it seems odd for that time period.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Any good man could offer her the same without offering her to be one of many of his wives.

A widower with children already perhaps.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, JulieM said:

True.

I also question whether this would have been discussed (pretty taboo for that time to discuss openly at all back then) in the presence of a child. Maybe they didn't know she was there?  But if so, it seems odd for that time period.

And would a child understand well enough what was said to have been able to repeat it accurately later or would it be more likely that gaps were filled in by the adult mind that led to the wrong conclusion.

[JulieM]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

A widower with children already perhaps.

Yes, or even a young man that fell in love with her and was willing to adopt children.  My Father was told my Mother would never have children (severe health problems) a year before they married and he still married her because of his love for her.  I also have a nephew that married his wife knowing they'd be adopting children.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, JulieM said:

True.

I also question whether this would have been discussed (pretty taboo for that time to discuss openly at all back then) in the presence of a child. Maybe they didn't know she was there?  But if so, it seems odd for that time period.

Not that time period obviously, but that absolutely would not have been discussed openly when I was a child, but I still managed to hear a whole lot in secret. I was quite the eavesdropper at the time.

I also know a lot of things were discussed when my MIL quilted with friends and my husband played underneath. Not to say that a gang rape would be discussed, but many things were discussed because he was unobtrusive enough that he was often forgotten about so it wouldn't surprise me if a child overheard things about the rape in similar ways.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Rain

[ALarson]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

I also know a lot of things were discussed when my MIL quilted with friends and my husband played underneath. Not to say that a gang rape would be discussed, but many things were discussed because he was unobtrusive enough that he was often forgotten about so it wouldn't surprise me if a child overheard things about the rape in similar ways.

Maybe, but it's still coming from a child and then not written down until 50 years later:

Quote

As a child, Horne would spend time at her grandmother's home, listening to the elderly women of Mormondom reminisce about the early days of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Radke-Moss said. "She then wrote about those visits 50 years later in the 1930s, where she recalled hearing those women discuss the rape of Eliza."

I also doubt that Bathsheba Smith was a close friend of Eliza R. Snow's when she was younger since Eliza (born in 1804) is over 18 years older than Bathsheba (born in 1822). They would have most likely known each other well later in life.  But either Bathsheba would have heard about this attack from someone else, or Eliza felt close enough to her when they were older to confide in her. 

It is very tragic if this is true.  It would seem that some other mention of it would been found (at least referring to it as a "violent attack on Eliza" or "a horrible incident in her younger life", etc., even if the word "rape" wasn't mentioned or any details given).  Maybe more will be found on this.

.

Edited March 4, 2016 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

My husband is related to her.  Maybe I'll ask my MIL.  Though if I were Eliza I wouldn't want this known.  I know there shouldn't be secrets in families but for me personally, I wouldn't like such a horrific thing such as this to taint me, even though I wouldn't have been at fault.  Maybe it was hidden well for this reason.  But I understand atrocities like this should be known in order to help prevent.

[JLHPROF]

I'm really not sure if the problem is with this Trib article or if this "respected" scholar would actually base an academic symposium presentation with a big reveal on such limited evidence.

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My husband is related to her.  Maybe I'll ask my MIL.  Though if I were Eliza I wouldn't want this known.  I know there shouldn't be secrets in families but for me personally, I wouldn't like such a horrific thing such as this to taint me, even though I wouldn't have been at fault.  Maybe it was hidden well for this reason.  But I understand atrocities like this should be known in order to help prevent.

I understand people feel this way and why, but for me personally, if my hard times could help others I would want people to know. But then I'm kind of an open book on just about anything if my experiences will help.

[Okrahomer]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm really not sure if the problem is with this Trib article or if this "respected" scholar would actually base an academic symposium presentation with a big reveal on such limited evidence.

Why the scare quotes around the word "respected" here?  Are you saying she isn't respected or that she doesn't deserve respect?

[hope_for_things]

Good questions, I wondered the same when I saw the news on twitter yesterday.  Sounds like the evidence for this isn't strong.  I would like to understand why the researcher is using this as an explanation for polygamy with Joseph.  Is there any evidence to back that up, or is that merely speculation by the author.  If this rape was a closely held secret, and considering the culture at the time, why should we assume that Joseph even knew about it.  If anyone has a link to the original paper and scholarship that was presented yesterday, I would like to read it.  I couldn't find it on Google.  

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Why the scare quotes around the word "respected" here?  Are you saying she isn't respected or that she doesn't deserve respect?

No reason really.

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would like to understand why the researcher is using this as an explanation for polygamy with Joseph.  Is there any evidence to back that up, or is that merely speculation by the author.  If this rape was a closely held secret, and considering the culture at the time, why should we assume that Joseph even knew about it.  If anyone has a link to the original paper and scholarship that was presented yesterday, I would like to read it.  I couldn't find it on Google.  

I agree.  This statement makes no sense to me (what does a possible gang rape have to do with the "origins of plural marriage"?):

Quote

It might also help modern Latter-day Saints "rethink, or at least complicate, the origins of plural marriage," Radke-Moss said. "

And, this is all speculation:

Quote

For Snow, polygamy was about "spiritual comfort following a savage crime that made her infertile, and a protective measure in the context of trauma and sexual violence that Mormon women experienced."

 

.

Edited March 4, 2016 by ALarson

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I agree.  This statement makes no sense to me (what does a possible gang rape have to do with the "origins of plural marriage"?):

And, this is all speculation:

 

.

The connection to plural marriage sounds completely speculative, I agree.  Also, do we know that she was infertile for sure or that this infertility was caused by the alleged rape.  Sounds like a lot of reading into what scant evidence exists.  I'm holding out hope that there is something more concrete in the source material, otherwise this looks like a creative explanatory effort and not good historiography.  

[Ginger Snaps]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The connection to plural marriage sounds completely speculative, I agree.  Also, do we know that she was infertile for sure or that this infertility was caused by the alleged rape.  Sounds like a lot of reading into what scant evidence exists.  I'm holding out hope that there is something more concrete in the source material, otherwise this looks like a creative explanatory effort and not good historiography.  

Yes. I'd very much like to hear/read the actual presentation. I hate stuff like this filtered through news services. 

Something about the Trib article just ruffles my feathers a bit. This is a real person who possibly lived through a violent and traumatic crime. Do we really have to throw around words like "bombshell"?  It just feels disrespectful. I don't agree that we shouldn't talk about it at all--it may have something valuable to add to the discussion and making these subjects taboo only provides more cover for them to hide under, but let's have a little respect and courtesy for the possible victim, living or dead. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Ginger Snaps

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband is related to her.  Maybe I'll ask my MIL.  Though if I were Eliza I wouldn't want this known.  I know there shouldn't be secrets in families but for me personally, I wouldn't like such a horrific thing such as this to taint me, even though I wouldn't have been at fault.  Maybe it was hidden well for this reason.  But I understand atrocities like this should be known in order to help prevent.

My father once told me that B.H. Roberts conciously choose not to include a lot of accounts like this to protect the feelings of victims. Sensibilities for many were still raw then.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Yes. I'd very much like to hear/read the actual presentation. I hate stuff like this filtered through news services. 

Something about the Trib article just ruffles my feathers a bit. This is a real person who possibly lived through a violent and traumatic crime. Do we really have to throw around words like "bombshell"?  It just feels disrespectful. I don't agree that we shouldn't talk about it at all--it may have something valuable to add to the discussion and making these subjects taboo only provides more cover for them to hide under, but let's have a little respect and courtesy for the possible victim, living or dead. 

My gut response is the same.  I think this could be valuable for abuse victims to have someone in church history they might identify with who was so well known and contributed so much, but it needs to be treated with respect and not sensationlized at all, just as any abuse needs to be treated.

[readstoomuch]

Sister Eliza was no foe of polygamy or one to be taken advantage in polygamy.  She was quite a proponent and seemed quite satisfied with the circumstances that she was in.  If Eliza was not raped, it certainly was possible that another Mormon woman was and the stories became misapplied.  

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Yes. I'd very much like to hear/read the actual presentation. I hate stuff like this filtered through news services. 

Something about the Trib article just ruffles my feathers a bit. This is a real person who possibly lived through a violent and traumatic crime. Do we really have to throw around words like "bombshell"?  It just feels disrespectful. I don't agree that we shouldn't talk about it at all--it may have something valuable to add to the discussion and making these subjects taboo only provides more cover for them to hide under, but let's have a little respect and courtesy for the possible victim, living or dead. 

I agree. Along with victims of abuse in general, there are still real problems for women internationally in wartime/conflicts whose rapes go unnoticed and silence. It was only in the late 1990's that rape could even be tried as a war crime even though it has a very long history as a weapon of war. It is still something that is extremely shameful and can break up families if the rape is found out (there's a very brief documentary in Netflix called Testimony about this and some of the struggles in trying said cases). To me, if this is true, Eliza R Snow is a more poignant and powerful figure for change in how people may dialogue about rape and its meaning for the family. That is a very pertinent message.

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited March 5, 2016 by BlueDreams
adding a link