Duncan Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, for being gay there is no condemnation - at least not in the eternities or by the Church. Elder Bednar would agree with that statement. You are no different than me or any other child of God. I don't think Outer Darkness has a part in this conversation unless you have seen the Savior and no longer live by faith. If I remember correctly, you argue from the point that your being gay is not a reflection of this carnal world, but it is an eternal, integral part of your nature; that without being gay you do not exist, have purpose, or can be happy. This is where we differ - my position and I go so far as to state the position of the prophets and apostles - a gay person, or however one wishes to describe it, is a function of this mortal world and has no eternal role or influence. We will all be washed in the blood of the Lamb and be resurrected into a perfect body. I believe that the higher the kingdom obtained will also affect the quality, purity of the Spirit we enjoy. For those in the Celestial Kingdom our very being will be in unison with the Father and the Son - their holiness, desires, will and joy will be ours. All of the impulses of the carnal world of mortality will fall away. again though why is homosexuality even a thing? what role does it play if it will be eliminated in the next life
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, Duncan said: again though why is homosexuality even a thing? OK, once again: did you actually read my long post above???
Storm Rider Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, Duncan said: again though why is homosexuality even a thing? what role does it play if it will be eliminated in the next life What role does the carnal play in this life? What role does opposition play in the eternities? Based upon your logic, if there is no role in the eternities then why did God create as part of this life. Why don't we all just naturally follow after God in complete obedience? That does not exist; what exists is a life of temptations from a broad range of things that appeal directly to our carnal, devilish natures in this world. 1
Duncan Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: What role does the carnal play in this life? What role does opposition play in the eternities? Based upon your logic, if there is no role in the eternities then why did God create as part of this life. Why don't we all just naturally follow after God in complete obedience? That does not exist; what exists is a life of temptations from a broad range of things that appeal directly to our carnal, devilish natures in this world. but wouldn't that mean more though to a gay person than a non gay person? I have the option of getting physical with someone after I get married and can do so in the next life but to a gay person that wants to be a Mormon that option isn't an option
rockpond Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 6 hours ago, canard78 said: While I, personally, don't agree with his point of view and teachings it shouldn't come as much of a surprise. If one thing is clear from the last 20 years or so of church leadership rhetoric, gender and your roles within a (straight) marriage definitely are defining. In Mormonsim, your eternal identity is clearly linked to your roles as a man or woman and whether you are married or not. I would say that's probably been the case for most of the church's history, they've just chosen to put more emphasis on this particular aspect of it in the last couple of decades. On that basis, I don't think Elder Bednar's answer was the victim of entropy. I think the second half was intentionally linked to the first half and the opening question. He describes homosexuality as a trial of the flesh, like many others, but does not consider it to be a defining characteristic. Gender and a straight relationship IS defining based on the beliefs he holds and teaches. It might not be an answer that you feel is scripturally supported, but he (and others on this board) seem to say that there really is not a difference between being gay and straight because we are all eternally, in effect, straight. We might be born with any number of "trials of the flesh" (like beauty, disability or same sex attraction) but that doesn't define us. You and I can disagree with his answer (and I do, on nearly every point), but we should at least not be surprised by it. Definitely true. As you've explained, I'm not so much surprised by the POV he espouses nor the teachings he reiterated. I'm surprised by the utter insensitivity of his response. Makes me sad. 3
CV75 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 11 hours ago, california boy said: No seriously. I did ask the question what is the worse that can happen to me for being gay. I guess it is outer darkness for me. Nothing else really matters does it. It is the same answer, and being gay has nothing to do with it. Your choices have everything to do with it. Why focus on the worst that can happen, anyway? The Lord doesn't extend His invitations to us in that context. The best that can happen of course is exaltation, and that is what he invites you to partake of. These things do take time, including our putting Him first.
ALarson Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, smac97 said: I'm looking for a general precept. I suppose we could talk about application in the particulars later on. But for now: "Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey commandments which are in force and effect now by claiming that God may change His mind about such commandments in the future?" It's a fairly straightforward question. Thanks, -Smac Well, we were discussing how church doctrine and policies evolve and have changed over time, so they may also change in the future. I never stated that "God may change his mind" about any commandment in the future. But again, yes, I try to keep all of the commandments and most especially the first and greatest commandment and the second which is "like unto it" (and I don't see those changing in the future). I also honor my Father and Mother, don't kill, don't steal, and so on. I could keep going, but unless you want anything more specific, you'll have to be more specific than just looking for a "general precept". . Edited March 2, 2016 by ALarson
ALarson Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 9 hours ago, Duncan said: personally I believe that homosexuals aren't on trial as much as we are and to see if we truly live up to the second greatest commandment, I don't think they get a free pass but I don't think we know all their is about how homosexuality or any other sexual condition fits into the plan of salvation Profound statement. (And, it fits right in with my post above.) 1
Popular Post HappyJackWagon Posted March 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Duncan said: again though why is homosexuality even a thing? what role does it play if it will be eliminated in the next life Is there a revelation or any definitive statement that says it will be eliminated in the next life? I'd love to see a reference on that. It seems to me that claim is based on assumptions and then upon that assumption is built the entire policy/culture/doctrine of the church regarding the LGBT community. How would I know that LGBT is "cured" in the next life? How would I know that s3xual procreation is the eternal manner of creating spirits and therefore only opposite gender relationships can create spirit children? When the brethren speak on this topic they continue to build on generations of assumptions instead of providing any revelation. 7
california boy Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: It is the same answer, and being gay has nothing to do with it. Your choices have everything to do with it. Why focus on the worst that can happen, anyway? The Lord doesn't extend His invitations to us in that context. The best that can happen of course is exaltation, and that is what he invites you to partake of. These things do take time, including our putting Him first. The difference is, you look forward to exaltation. Living for eternity with your beloved companion creating an eternal family in heaven sounds more appealing than living in a lower kingdom where no such relationships occur That same promise is not offered to those that are gay. No promise to spend eternity with our beloved companion for eternity. No possibility of creating our eternal family and being together for eternity. I have nothing to look forward to in the promise of exaltation. So why worry or strive for exaltation? 3
california boy Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: OK, once again: did you actually read my long post above??? We all read your long and thought out post. The problem is it is rubbish. There have been gays on the earth since the beginning of time no matter what their officialLy been called or defined. You act as if the opinion of some straight philosophers or historian or whatever their title matters. give me one good reason why it should matter. 1
Popular Post Sky Posted March 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 2, 2016 It may not seem like the LDS Church has anything to offer an LGBT / non-heterosexual person, but the reasons why some of us want to stay are usually along the same lines as for anybody else... We believe that the gospel has been restored through Joseph Smith, we have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, we believe in living prophets, we believe in Christ and the Atonement, we've made temple covenants, and we like the church community and the good things that the Church can do for people, among others. We can't really see ourselves anywhere else besides in the LDS Church. It is our community and it's what we know. Any other path has some degree of foreignness to us. That being said, there are many times when we have to separate the gospel from the people in it. Many of the members do not understand what being gay is like and don't seem to want to understand. If the Church really wants us to stay, then we need more love and empathy and valdation. We need a safe place to be able to talk about our experiences without being ostracized or silenced. Through the years, the Church and many of its leaders have said things that have hurt us, and that has caused many of us to stumble and fall away. Before November 5th, it seemed as though the Church was taking a softer, gentler approach in dealing with homosexuality, even if none of the doctrine had actually changed. Then, Elder Nelson said that the policy change was the result of a revelation, and now Elder Bednar has said that "homosexual members don't really exist." Many, many gay Mormons are hurting. It feels as though we are back in the 1970's and 80's to a lot of us gay Mormons. Some of us gay Mormons (myself included) believe in living prophets, but many of us are also more likely than others to see their fallibility and weaknesses and limitations. That is where a personal relationship with God, apart from Church leaders, comes in handy. Why can't we follow the counsel given on our own website, www.mormonsandgays.org, from 2012? Why does it feel like this website is being virtually ignored? Why isn't this website being shouted from the rooftops!? Do we not really believe what we say? Was it really all just a Public Relations ploy? Can we ever love people too much? Why do we always have to put so much emphasis on condemning the sin, rather than actually loving the sinner and showing them that they are actually wanted and valued? Why does it seem like homosexual sin is condemned and looked down upon more than other sins? I think it's because there is an ewww factor. Do I feel completely valued in the Church as I am? Do I feel safe to come out to my ward? No. Some of my thoughts on the matter, anyway. For what it's worth. 9
Duncan Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: Is there a revelation or any definitive statement that says it will be eliminated in the next life? I'd love to see a reference on that. It seems to me that claim is based on assumptions and then upon that assumption is built the entire policy/culture/doctrine of the church regarding the LGBT community. How would I know that LGBT is "cured" in the next life? How would I know that s3xual procreation is the eternal manner of creating spirits and therefore only opposite gender relationships can create spirit children? When the brethren speak on this topic they continue to build on generations of assumptions instead of providing any revelation. all I know is Elder Hafen then of teh 70 said something to that effect, and I love Elder Hafen but I don't know where he got that
rockpond Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Sky said: It may not seem like the LDS Church has anything to offer an LGBT / non-heterosexual person, but the reasons why some of us want to stay are usually along the same lines as for anybody else... We believe that the gospel has been restored through Joseph Smith, we have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, we believe in living prophets, we believe in Christ and the Atonement, we've made temple covenants, and we like the church community and the good things that the Church can do for people, among others. We can't really see ourselves anywhere else besides in the LDS Church. It is our community and it's what we know. Any other path has some degree of foreignness to us. That being said, there are many times when we have to separate the gospel from the people in it. Many of the members do not understand what being gay is like and don't seem to want to understand. If the Church really wants us to stay, then we need more love and empathy and valdation. We need a safe place to be able to talk about our experiences without being ostracized or silenced. Through the years, the Church and many of its leaders have said things that have hurt us, and that has caused many of us to stumble and fall away. Before November 5th, it seemed as though the Church was taking a softer, gentler approach in dealing with homosexuality, even if none of the doctrine had actually changed. Then, Elder Nelson said that the policy change was the result of a revelation, and now Elder Bednar has said that "homosexual members don't really exist." Many, many gay Mormons are hurting. It feels as though we are back in the 1970's and 80's to a lot of us gay Mormons. Some of us gay Mormons (myself included) believe in living prophets, but many of us are also more likely than others to see their fallibility and weaknesses and limitations. That is where a personal relationship with God, apart from Church leaders, comes in handy. Why can't we follow the counsel given on our own website, www.mormonsandgays.org, from 2012? Why does it feel like this website is being virtually ignored? Why isn't this website being shouted from the rooftops!? Do we not really believe what we say? Was it really all just a Public Relations ploy? Can we ever love people too much? Why do we always have to put so much emphasis on condemning the sin, rather than actually loving the sinner and showing them that they are actually wanted and valued? Why does it seem like homosexual sin is condemned and looked down upon more than other sins? I think it's because there is an ewww factor. Do I feel completely valued in the Church as I am? Do I feel safe to come out to my ward? No. Some of my thoughts on the matter, anyway. For what it's worth. Wonderful post, Sky. Amen! I hope everyone will read and consider it. And, I wish you could have answered that question on Elder Bednar's broadcast. 1
CV75 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 52 minutes ago, california boy said: The difference is, you look forward to exaltation. Living for eternity with your beloved companion creating an eternal family in heaven sounds more appealing than living in a lower kingdom where no such relationships occur That same promise is not offered to those that are gay. No promise to spend eternity with our beloved companion for eternity. No possibility of creating our eternal family and being together for eternity. I have nothing to look forward to in the promise of exaltation. So why worry or strive for exaltation? I don't worry about or strive for exaltation, either. That is not how it is done (see Matthew 25;31-40). I do try to put Christ first in the way he has asked, and everything else nicely falls into place. In this way, temptations and the effects of sin are overcome and sacrifices and progress are made. The process goes on beyond this life as well. But as Elder Bednar explains, some can be so focused on a limited definition of "what they are" to not see this truth and who they really are, cutting themselves short.
canard78 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I think that's precisely what we offer those who crave tobacco or alcohol. I know faithful Church members who still crave these substances many decades after giving them up in order to be accepted into baptism. I think that medically speaking there is a distinct difference between the emotional and physical conditions that create a tobacco or alcohol dependency or craving compared to the conditions that create a homosexual attraction. 3
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) I'm just so sorry that things like this video of Elder Bednar continue. There was a recent suicide of a gay member... "Harry’s body was found today. His family is devastated. Thank you to everyone who helped and supported in finding him. We would like for everyone to know Harry was gay and felt very alone in the world. The beliefs and the opinions of local religions not being supportive of Harry’s right to be allowed to live as he was. We would like everyone to know because we know he wasn’t the only one with this struggle. For those fighting the same battles Harry did please know you are not alone, you are beautiful and you deserve to be accepted. Reach out ask for help and to everyone else, please be there and love and accept we all have our differences and no one deserves to find themselves as we found Harry lost, alone, broken and isolated. We don’t have to agree to love one another and dying because of sexual preference and that not being accepted is something that needs to end, too many are gone and too many still suffer. We want Harry’s memory to empower and support others, and to remind everyone how important it is to accept one another. Let us all remember we’re only human and no one can do this alone, we all need to be loved and accepted. Please pray for his family during this difficult time and please pray for those that suffer like he did and for those unable to accept them that hearts may be softened and families kept together. Remember Harry and remember we are not alone, we are all human." Let's just stop. Elder Bednar had a choice whether to answer that question, or he could have answered so much better. As a rep for the church, I'm so disappointed that the HG escaped him, IMO. I'm not laying the blame on Elder Bednar, I'm just saying we need to figure out ways to help prevent this from happening time after time. Edited March 2, 2016 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 11 hours ago, smac97 said: So fornication, which is sinful in this life, will exist in the kingdoms of glory prepared by God? That appears to be what you are saying, so I just want to be clear about it. What about other sins? Will hatred and violence occur in the lower kingdoms? Theft? Rape? Avarice? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the type of existence you folks seem to conceptualize as existing in the kingdoms of glory prepared by God. Apparently it will be some sort of hedonistic bacchanalia, where the concepts of sin and righteousness, right and wrong, etc. do not exist. By this reckoning the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms will be even more depraved than this world. At least this world, when ripened in iniquity, will be cleansed. The wickedness and disobedience to God will end. But you folks are proposing that God has prepared eternal abodes wherein His children will be at liberty to live in sin and depravity and wickedess for eternity. I can't square this with my general understanding of the Restored Gospel. The Church teaches that The Law of Chastity "is a principle of eternal significance." We are told that "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." I do not think the kingdoms of glory here described will include sinful conduct such as hate, or violence, or avarice, or lust, or fornication. I do not think God would expend so much time and effort teaching His children about the various aspects of the laws governing His children, only to then dispense with those laws in the eternities. Those outside the Celestial Kingdom "cannot have an increase." So there are clearly some material differences between how we live now and the eternities. Marriage and "increase" is available to saint and sinner alike in this world, but not in the world to come. In the world to come, those blessings are limited to the Celestial Kingdom. We are also told that "[a]ll covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise ... are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." We are also taught that those who do not enter into a celestial marriage "are not bound by any law when they are out of the world," that such persons "neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants," and that such persons - as angels - "cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." So I don't see family units, either heterosexual or homosexual, existing in the lower kingdoms. The kingdoms of glory prepared by God for His children, even the lesser kingdoms, sound like they will be so wonderful as to be beyond our ability to currently comprehend. I am profoundly grateful for that. But I don't think we do ourselves or others any favors by proposing that God's plan is to have His children live in sin forever, fornicating their way through the eternities. I just don't see that as being part of the Plan. Thanks, -Smac I am not convinced that the same laws that apply in this life are eternal. I am speculating. I could very easily be wrong. 1
california boy Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 43 minutes ago, Sky said: It may not seem like the LDS Church has anything to offer an LGBT / non-heterosexual person, but the reasons why some of us want to stay are usually along the same lines as for anybody else... We believe that the gospel has been restored through Joseph Smith, we have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, we believe in living prophets, we believe in Christ and the Atonement, we've made temple covenants, and we like the church community and the good things that the Church can do for people, among others. We can't really see ourselves anywhere else besides in the LDS Church. It is our community and it's what we know. Any other path has some degree of foreignness to us. That being said, there are many times when we have to separate the gospel from the people in it. Many of the members do not understand what being gay is like and don't seem to want to understand. If the Church really wants us to stay, then we need more love and empathy and valdation. We need a safe place to be able to talk about our experiences without being ostracized or silenced. Through the years, the Church and many of its leaders have said things that have hurt us, and that has caused many of us to stumble and fall away. Before November 5th, it seemed as though the Church was taking a softer, gentler approach in dealing with homosexuality, even if none of the doctrine had actually changed. Then, Elder Nelson said that the policy change was the result of a revelation, and now Elder Bednar has said that "homosexual members don't really exist." Many, many gay Mormons are hurting. It feels as though we are back in the 1970's and 80's to a lot of us gay Mormons. Some of us gay Mormons (myself included) believe in living prophets, but many of us are also more likely than others to see their fallibility and weaknesses and limitations. That is where a personal relationship with God, apart from Church leaders, comes in handy. Why can't we follow the counsel given on our own website, www.mormonsandgays.org, from 2012? Why does it feel like this website is being virtually ignored? Why isn't this website being shouted from the rooftops!? Do we not really believe what we say? Was it really all just a Public Relations ploy? Can we ever love people too much? Why do we always have to put so much emphasis on condemning the sin, rather than actually loving the sinner and showing them that they are actually wanted and valued? Why does it seem like homosexual sin is condemned and looked down upon more than other sins? I think it's because there is an ewww factor. Do I feel completely valued in the Church as I am? Do I feel safe to come out to my ward? No. Some of my thoughts on the matter, anyway. For what it's worth. Sky, my heart breaks for you. I wish only the best whatever and where ever you find it. There are few on this board that really understand the turmoil you experience. Love does heal much of the sorrow and pain. I hope you find it. I hope you fill your life surrounded with people that care and enrich your life. And I offer my love and concern for you. I wish I could do more than that. I want you to know, you have a friend in me. 3
smac97 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, ALarson said: Well, we were discussing how church doctrine and policies evolve and have changed over time, so they may also change in the future. I never stated that "God may change his mind" about any commandment in the future. I see that "God may change his mind" sounds risible or provocative. That was not my intent, and I apologize. I will revise the question: "Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future?" Quote But again, yes, I try to keep all of the commandments and most especially the first and greatest commandment and the second which is "like unto it" (and I don't see those changing in the future). I also honor my Father and Mother, don't kill, don't steal, and so on. I did not ask you about whether you keep the commandments. I am not quizzing you on your personal righteousness. That's not my business. It is not within my stewardship to make such inquiries. I am attempting to understand your position. So again: Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? Quote I could keep going, but unless you want anything more specific, you'll have to be more specific than just looking for a "general precept". I do not want anything from you regarding your obedience to the commandments of God. Such intrusive inquiries would, in my view, be quite inappropriate. Instead, I am asking the following question: Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? I'm not sure further specificity is required in order to answer this question. But if you insist, here you go: 1. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Word of Wisdom as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 2. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Tithing as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 3. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Chastity as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? Thanks, -Smac 2
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: I see that "God may change his mind" sounds risible or provocative. That was not my intent, and I apologize. I will revise the question: "Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future?" I did not ask you about whether you keep the commandments. I am not quizzing you on your personal righteousness. That's not my business. It is not within my stewardship to make such inquiries. I am attempting to understand your position. So again: Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? I do not want anything from you regarding your obedience to the commandments of God. Such intrusive inquiries would, in my view, be quite inappropriate. Instead, I am asking the following question: Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey a commandment which is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? I'm not sure further specificity is required in order to answer this question. But if you insist, here you go: 1. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Word of Wisdom as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 2. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Tithing as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 3. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Chastity as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? Thanks, -Smac The penalties for these are no where near that of living as a gay person, or shall I say acting on it.
ALarson Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure further specificity is required in order to answer this question. But if you insist, here you go: 1. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Word of Wisdom as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 2. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Tithing as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? 3. Do you think that Latter-day Saints are at liberty to disobey The Law of Chastity as it is in force and effect now by claiming that God may modify or rescind that commandment in the future? Thanks, -Smac Thanks for clarifying, although I have not stated that I believe God's commandments will change (doctrines or policies have evolved or changed, IMO....but they may affect some of God's commandments, I can see that possibly). And to answer your questions above, "no" to all. (You are referring to what the "law of chastity" states in the temple, correct? That is a good example of one that has changed from the early days in the church, by the way. It can also very easily apply to heterosexuals and homosexuals.) . Edited March 2, 2016 by ALarson
california boy Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 32 minutes ago, CV75 said: I don't worry about or strive for exaltation, either. That is not how it is done (see Matthew 25;31-40). I do try to put Christ first in the way he has asked, and everything else nicely falls into place. In this way, temptations and the effects of sin are overcome and sacrifices and progress are made. The process goes on beyond this life as well. But as Elder Bednar explains, some can be so focused on a limited definition of "what they are" to not see this truth and who they really are, cutting themselves short. Matthew 25 is one of my favorite scriptures. I also think it is one, if not the most important scriptures in the Bible. It is Christ's last public sermon. I think that says something about how important that message is to Christ. I believe that when we conform our lives to that message of Christ we will find happiness both in this life and the life to come. I know the dogma of the church teaches that my love for my partner is ugly, sinful, apostate, evil, of satan and all the other words that have been thrown against it. Sorry, but I feel none of those things. I only feel goodness and joy. While many members think I can not progress towards Christ unless I throw my partner out of my life, I have not found that to be true. 2
smac97 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The penalties for these are no where near that of living as a gay person, or shall I say acting on it. I'm not sure what you mean. All three of the laws I cited apply to all of God's children equally. We are all required to obey The Law of Chastity. There is no separate version for "gay person{s}." Thanks, -Smac 2
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 9 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure what you mean. All three of the laws I cited apply to all of God's children equally. We are all required to obey The Law of Chastity. There is no separate version for "gay person{s}." Thanks, -Smac What about a gay married person? I again read these posts wrong though. I'll take a break from the board today.
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