Elder Bednar - "There are no homosexual members of the church."

[consiglieri]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, we would prefer neither lifestyle existed at all.

So there really are no homosexuals in the church?

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Gray said:

Until very recently it wasn't defined as apostasy. So at least in terms of policy it was more tolerant in the recent past. 

 

Until recently there was no legal recognition of Same Sex Marriage which is the only thing related to homosexual behaviour that is viewed as apostasy, so not really seeing the difference here.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But they do exist, unless you take Elder Bednar literally and claim there are no gay members. We cannot simply wish them away.

So if we acknowledge that they exist which lifestyle seems preferable? Monogamous committed marriage or promiscuity. Only one of them is considered apostasy, so what is the church saying? It would seem to be suggesting that SSM is worse than a promiscuous lifestyle.

And the fact remains, the church has not addressed the role of gays in the eternities beyond saying what they can't be. What is their role?

 

ETA- If the church preferred that no homosexual lifestyle existed, is that the same thing as saying they wish that homosexuals did not exist? 

To your ETA: No.

The church is not in the business of choosing between two bad lifestyles. You can use the same logic to suggest that LDS are irresponsible for not giving condoms to their youth because it is better then the alternative. Or that we should differentiate between cocaine and heroin as to which is the worst violation of the Word of Wisdom.

You just want to use this as an idiotic bully pulpit. You never spell out what you are saying. You are suggesting there are homosexually-inclined church members trying to decide between a promiscuous life of same-sex partners or with committed same-sex marriage. These people then look to whether or not their particular choice is labeled apostasy and decide based on that? Surely they realize that participating in either without repentance will lead to excommunication. You are trying to split a strand of hair that does not split.

On a sidenote evidence so far is that commited monogamous same-sex marriage is not the same-sex marriage norm so you may want to work on that before you worry which the LDS church supposedly favors.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

So there really are no homosexuals in the church?

I suggest you read what the apostle said. He would know better then I.

[smac97]

Just now, Gray said:

Right, when gay people do the right thing, the Christian thing, and get married and raise families, they're apostates.

Same-sex marriage is neither "the right thing" nor "the Christian thing."  Obedience to God is "the right" and "Christian" thing.

C'mon.  This isn't rocket science.  If we're going to discuss this, let's at least present the LDS paradigm correctly.

-Smac

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Right. Being gay isn't apostasy. Being gay in a monogamous, legal marriage is apostasy. Apparently leaders would prefer a more promiscuous, dangerous lifestyle.

This might be an argument if leaders didn't teach against all homosexual behaviour.

This is like arguing leaders prefer fornication by teenagers over fornication by a prominent member or embezzlement from someone's work rather then embezzlement from the Church because neither are mandatory discipline issues.

[Gray]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure you were still subject to church discipline before this supposed relabeling.

It wasn't mandatory before. Or apparently so aggressively pursued, if recent events are indicative of a trend. 

[consiglieri]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suggest you read what the apostle said. He would know better then I.

I just listened to it in detail.

Elder Bednar first said there are no homosexuals in the church.

He then went on to say that there may be people in the church who are attracted to people of the same sex, but there are no homosexuals in the church.

He never varied from this.

 

Let's not forget the initial question was how can we make homosexuals feel more welcome in the church.

Elder Bednar refuses to answer that question, because according to him, there are no homosexuals in the church.

The take-away from his 11+ minute non-answer is that we don't have to make homosexuals feel more welcome in the church . . . because there are no homosexuals in the church.

I know Elder Bednar is talking off the cuff here, so I want to cut him some slack.

But really, I think we are entitled to expect more from an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gray]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Same-sex marriage is neither "the right thing" nor "the Christian thing."  Obedience to God is "the right" and "Christian" thing.

C'mon.  This isn't rocket science.  If we're going to discuss this, let's at least present the LDS paradigm correctly.

-Smac

Gay marriage is definitely the wrong thing if you're straight. Just as straight marriage is the wrong thing if you're gay. You're right, it's not rocket science. 

God has not weighed in on the subject, but there is no reason to suppose that good Christian principles of settling down and raising a family don't apply to gay marriage as well. Certainly gay marriage seems to bear good fruit in the lives of gay couples. What other confirmation is needed?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Gray

[consiglieri]

23 hours ago, california boy said:

 

So what is the worst that will happen to me in the next life if I continue to live a joyful life with someone I love and care for here on earth? Does anyone really know the answer to that question?  

I know the answer to that question, California Boy.

The answer is that, regardless of what happens in the next life, you will have lived a joyful life on earth with someone you love and care for.

That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know.

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Until recently there was no legal recognition of Same Sex Marriage which is the only thing related to homosexual behaviour that is viewed as apostasy, so not really seeing the difference here.

There has been legal recognition of gay marriage for many years, depending on the state or country. 

[ALarson]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

This might be an argument if leaders didn't teach against all homosexual behaviour.

I agree that leaders teach against homosexual behavior, but it's not until they marry that they become apostates.  Or do you believe they can be tried for apostasy (church court) if they're just living with a same sex partner or having many different same sex partners?

If not, can you see the message this is sending?  Apostasy is a very serious charge and I imagine some gay members may choose to just live together rather than get married..  

.

.

Edited March 2, 2016 by ALarson

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

This might be an argument if leaders didn't teach against all homosexual behaviour.

This is like arguing leaders prefer fornication by teenagers over fornication by a prominent member or embezzlement from someone's work rather then embezzlement from the Church because neither are mandatory discipline issues.

Apostasy:

Not apostasy:

 

Makes perfect sense. 

[canard78]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

Definitely true. 

As you've explained, I'm not so much surprised by the POV he espouses nor the teachings he reiterated.  I'm surprised by the utter insensitivity of his response. 

Makes me sad. 

I definitely agree that his answer was insensitive. 

He he could have made his point with far more empathetic language without having to alter his doctrinal position. 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

Gay marriage is definitely the wrong thing if you're straight.

Gay marriage is "definitely the wrong thing" according to the Lord's anointed.

Outside of the LDS Church, you might have a point.  But within the Church, within that paradigm, you don't.

Quote

God has not weighed in on the subject,

Yes, He has.  

Quote

but there is no reason to suppose that good Christian principles of settling down and raising a family don't apply to gay marriage as well. 

There is ample reason.  I'd go into more detail, but I don't think this is a discussion grounded in good faith and reason.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Elder Bednar first said there are no homosexuals in the church.

CFR.

[cinepro]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Gay marriage is "definitely the wrong thing" according to the Lord's anointed.

Outside of the LDS Church, you might have a point.  But within the Church, within that paradigm, you don't.

Yes, He has.  

There is ample reason.  I'd go into more detail, but I don't think this is a discussion grounded in good faith and reason.

Thanks,

-Smac

I love how when they say something we agree with, they're "the Lord's anointed."

But if we disagree, then they're "those fallible men the Lord has called to do the best they can to lead us by expressing their fallible, personal opinions."

 

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, Gray said:

It wasn't mandatory before. Or apparently so aggressively pursued, if recent events are indicative of a trend. 

Or perhaps just not so visible before?

17 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I just listened to it in detail.

Elder Bednar first said there are no homosexuals in the church.

He then went on to say that there may be people in the church who are attracted to people of the same sex, but there are no homosexuals in the church.

He never varied from this.

 

Let's not forget the initial question was how can we make homosexuals feel more welcome in the church.

Elder Bednar refuses to answer that question, because according to him, there are no homosexuals in the church.

The take-away from his 11+ minute non-answer is that we don't have to make homosexuals feel more welcome in the church . . . because there are no homosexuals in the church.

I know Elder Bednar is talking off the cuff here, so I want to cut him some slack.

But really, I think we are entitled to expect more from an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree with Elder Bednar.

I expect better from our critics then these inane comparisons as ammunition against us. I guess we will just both be unsatisfied.

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Gay marriage is "definitely the wrong thing" according to the Lord's anointed.

Outside of the LDS Church, you might have a point.  But within the Church, within that paradigm, you don't.

Yes, He has.  

There is ample reason.  I'd go into more detail, but I don't think this is a discussion grounded in good faith and reason.

Thanks,

-Smac

What exactly did God say about gay marriage? 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Gray said:

Apostasy:

Not apostasy:

 

Makes perfect sense. 

First one looks boring while the second gives me funny feelings that are strange and confusing.

Practically both are treated the same way. Buh-bye. Apparently specifying that your excommunication is not for apostasy somehow mitigates it or something. I think we have wandered into the Twilight Zone here where such distinctions without a difference supposedly matter.

[Gray]

Just now, The Nehor said:

First one looks boring while the second gives me funny feelings that are strange and confusing.

Practically both are treated the same way. Buh-bye. Apparently specifying that your excommunication is not for apostasy somehow mitigates it or something. I think we have wandered into the Twilight Zone here where such distinctions without a difference supposedly matter.

Mandatory discipline vs optional discipline. I think that's a pretty big difference.

Then again, maybe that crossword puzzle is racier than it appears at first glance...

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I love how when they say something we agree with, they're "the Lord's anointed."

But if we disagree, then they're "those fallible men the Lord has called to do the best they can to lead us by expressing their fallible, personal opinions."

 

I say the first in both cases. I occasionally add the second but they are still the first. I don't use the second very often. I can think of three times that a living apostle said something that I disagreed with. Even then I usually agree with the gist of what they are saying if not the specifics.

[smac97]

Just now, cinepro said:

I love how when they say something we agree with, they're "the Lord's anointed."

Your snide cynicism and contempt is noted.

Quote

But if we disagree, then they're "those fallible men the Lord has called to do the best they can to lead us by expressing their fallible, personal opinions."

First, what's this "we," kemosabe?

Second, you speak as if these are two mutually exclusive categories.  

Third, regarding the issue at hand, I do not think a good faith argument can be made that the Brethren are "expressing their fallible, personal opinions."  The recent changes to the CHI have not been presented as the result of the Brethren relying on their own "fallible, personal opinions."  The changes were the result of revelation.

Wow.  Not much in the way of good faith going on in this thread.

-Smac

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

There has been legal recognition of gay marriage for many years, depending on the state or country. 

I don't see 15 years (Dec 2000, Netherlands is the first law recognizing same sex marriage in the world) as that "many".  Outside of the US, there was little gay marriage activism in or against the Church from what I've seen, it was not in use as a political statement against the Church nor were there conversations going on that the Church would likely change their policies eventually and allow for homosexual marriages among members without potential for discipline.  It makes sense to me that it awaited a US Supreme Court decision making it the law of the land everywhere, drawing the legal conversation more or less in this country to a close, for the policy to appear.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Calm

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

What exactly did God say about gay marriage? 

If I thought this was a good faith inquiry, I'd happily answer it.

But I don't, so I won't.

Thanks,

-Smac