Elder Bednar - "There are no homosexual members of the church."

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, we all suffer with or have impurities, spiritual dross or mortal weaknesses.  I don't think that being gay is included in those..

And I do.  And apparently so does Elder Bednar and the Church.
Evidence was asked for that homosexuality will end in the next life.  I provided the only reasonable explanation available.
 

Quote

There will be no forcing of people to be married (polygamy for example) and there will be no forcing to keep those who love each other apart.  I also believe gay spouses will be together if they want to be with the one they love after this life.

And I ask for ANY gospel evidence (CFR) to that effect other than wishful thinking.

[ALarson]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And I do.  And apparently so does Elder Bednar and the Church.
Evidence was asked for that homosexuality will end in the next life.  I provided the only reasonable explanation available.
 

And I ask for ANY gospel evidence (CFR) to that effect other than wishful thinking.

"Reasonable" to you, not to everyone.  So no, it's not the only reasonable explanation.

You are issuing a CFR for what I believe?   I simply believe that God will not force people to be with anyone they choose not to be with and He will also not force anyone to be apart from the one they love.

I also believe that women will not be forced to live polygamy in the next life (even if they have been sealed to a man who has had multiple other wives sealed to them).

I'm sure you can supply numerous scriptures and statements from past Prophets supporting your opinion on that too, just as you have for this topic.  I just simply disagree.  

Same logic (for me at least).

.

Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson

[Guest]

On February 29, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Jeanne said:

Well..nice.  That being said..the church has been defined by its polygamy past for a long time.  Of course there isn't any polygamy in the church is there.  I think the statement is sad.  Does this mean that gay members are not sons and daughters of God? 

I think he is defining "Gay" as those who act on their attraction. There a members of every Faith who live celibate (hope I spelled that correctly) lives. I don't know how women feel, but men are attracted to every beautiful woman they see, as well as the married or unmarried, and choose to live against their nature and choose to follow God's will and not their own. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I thought it was common knowledge the Church is composed exclusively of sinners.

What was it President Uchtdorf said?

Something about, "Don't hate me because I sin differently than you."

Well now that’s perfectly OK because it’s a generic term, and considering the panoply of sins we can rationalize, discourages a dysfunctional preference for / focus on only the prurient ones.

Three cheers for the well-rounded sinner!

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I would imagine that most couples in a SSM want to continue being with the one they love.  I certainly believe that God will not force them to stay apart.  

What about a man who is in an unhappy marriage and has taken a mistress?  Suppose this man and his mistress "want to continue being" together in the hereafter?  Do you believe "God will not force them to stay apart?"

Just trying to sort out your reasoning here, as it's clearly not based on LDS doctrine.

God has given His children the means to create eternal families.  Eternal families are based not on the whims and preferences of fallen man, but on eternal principles, eternal laws.  The Plan of Salvation has never been presented as a "You get whatever you want in the end" or "it doesn't matter what you do in life" type of thing.  We've seen this type of teaching before:

Quote

 17 And many more such things did he {Korihor} say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

 18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.

And here:

Quote

 8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

Instead, the Church teaches the following:

Quote

The Plan of Happiness

God has provided the plan of salvation, or plan of happiness, to help you receive the blessings of eternal life. This plan is set forth in the scriptures; men and women cannot rewrite it to accommodate their desires. God alone gives the reward of eternal life. Some of the greatest blessings promised by the plan, including eternal life, are not intended for immediate enjoyment. Eternity is long, and mortality is short. As you base your decisions on eternal principles rather than on earthly challenges or desires, you can have “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” (D&C 59:23).

These blessings are based on obedience to eternal principles. The importance of families is one of these principles. Heaven is organized by families, which require a man and a woman who together exercise their creative powers within the bounds the Lord has set. Same-gender relationships are inconsistent with this plan. Without both a husband and a wife there would be no eternal family and no opportunity to become like Heavenly Father.

I'm not particularly interested in critiquing an individual's beliefs.  I am more interested in correctly defining and presenting and discussing LDS doctrines.  It is within that context that I reject notions presented by purported Latter-day Saints that same-sex relationships can exist in the eternities.  While an individual is at liberty to believe as he or she likes, I will contest any effort to present such a notion as being contemplated in or compatible with the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  It's not.

Quote

And, as far any of this being "a matter of doctrine", this has been discussed (and is being discussed on this thread).

I really appreciate your entire post above and enjoyed reading through it.  We just disagree on our conclusions.

I think my conclusions are compatible with the Restored Gospel.  Wishful theorizing about same-sex relationships in the eternities is utterly unfounded in, and at odds with, the Restored Gospel.

Thanks,

-Smac

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

In which your position was shown to be completely wrong!

The inhabitants of the physical and spiritual worlds that He created are begotten sons and daughters unto God (D&C 76:24).

One wrong scriptural reference at a time, please!

The scripture you cite says that the inhabitants of the worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through Christ!

This has to do with a spiritual adoption; not a physical or spiritual creation.

It has nothing to do with the creation of gender.

You are wresting the scripture.

Such wresting is necessary only when one's fundamental position is incorrect.

[consiglieri]

Can I mention here parenthetically that this entire problem is grounded in the development in Mormon doctrine of the idea that spirit children are procreated by exalted parents who were sealed in the temple?

This is the nubbin of the difficulty.

And it is a doctrine that was introduced after Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith's last word on the subject prior to his death was that spirits are eternal and "there is no creation about them."

[USU78]

20 hours ago, cinepro said:

Honestly, I think Elder Bendar's comment fails for one key reason: he is using a simplistic semantic argument in a way that borders on being disingenuous.

And you arrive at this conclusions based upon the mountains of evidence supportive of the proposition that all Mormons lie  ...  all the time.

[Scott Lloyd]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Indeed I do.

Since there can be no wholesome expression of it, no expression that conforms to the laws of God, in this life or the next, the unkind and thoughtless thing is to make someone who doesn't want it think he/she will be stuck with it for eternity.

 

 

21 hours ago, cinepro said:

What about someone who does want it?  

Obviously, the dangers of Same-sex Marriage have been well warned by Church leaders.  But perhaps one of the biggest dangers that isn't often discussed is that people in a SSM might find true happiness and companionship.  If that happens, then how could they ever desire what the Church offers (i.e. eternal marriage to someone of the opposite sex, and specifically not the person they are currently married to)?

 

I never got around to addressing this yesterday; I shall endeavor to do so now.

Our task is to somehow find a way to teach and persuade such an individual of the eternal truths as expressed by Elders Wickman and Oaks in the quote I cited earlier:
 

Quote

 

ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.

ELDER OAKS: Let me just add a thought to that. There is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband, a wife, and posterity. Further, men are that they might have joy. In the eternal perspective, same-gender activity will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities.

 

(Emphasis mine)

I agree, it appears daunting, even impossible.

But the process of conversion itself is a miracle, and one that happens somewhere in the world every day. So we try to help who we can, if we can and where we can, relying on the Spirit to do the converting in accordance with the wisdom and justice of God and with an individual's exercise of his own agency.

Meanwhile, we employ the principle of triage in our outreach efforts and focus most immediately on those who can be helped now and who are the most apt to be receptive and responsive to our efforts. In my view, that includes those who experience same-sex attraction but are not yet entrenched in homosexual behavior and in fact have no desire to be and who need and desire help in avoiding it.

That is the sort of individual in most urgent need of the reassurance that Elder Wickman gives in the quote above, that the struggles he is going through now will last only for the duration of the relative "nanosecond" that amounts to our mortal existence. Should I ignore this individual's needs and downplay or avoid mentioning at all what I know to be true in the interest of not upsetting someone who is entrenched in the homosexual lifestyle and has no intention of ever changing?

No, I am going to continue to emphasize this truth, hoping that I can help someone avoid what Elder Oaks characterizes as eventual "sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities."

Edited March 1, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

8 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Can I mention here parenthetically that this entire problem is grounded in the development in Mormon doctrine of the idea that spirit children are procreated by exalted parents who were sealed in the temple?

This is the nubbin of the difficulty.

And it is a doctrine that was introduced after Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith's last word on the subject prior to his death was that spirits are eternal and "there is no creation about them."

What qualitative difference is there between your implied but pretty clear position on 1st Presidency Statements joined by all of the Twelve  ...  and the position of the polygynists in Short Creek on the 1st and 2nd Manifestos?

[USU78]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

You are absolutely right. Mormon doctrine is built on a[n accurately] defined definition of marriage. All else is built upon that principle. it is of such importance that it is impossible to fit all the other pieces together. You may be able to fit a piece here and there, but you will never be able to complete. the picture. For gays that piece is completely missing and there is no hope in finding it. For single members that piece is simply lost and they have the hope of finding it  

FIFY.

cb, you have hope, though your commitment to the position you adopted now many years ago prevents your seeing it.

Life is hard.  It's especially hard when physical affection is denied you by circumstances not entirely of your making as you, were you to fall back to your prior position, and I, in my now former life, experience and have experienced.  Elder Bednar would see very little difference in our respective suffering, would offer to both of us the same seed of hope for relief at some point, either within or without mortality, and would offer us the same advice:  keep your covenants to the best of your ability.

Hopelessness is the coin of the Adversary.  There is always hope.

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That's not simple logic, more wishful thinking.  There has never been a teaching that logically leads to that conclusion.

You and Stemelbow asked for teachings concerning homosexuality being removed in the next life.
I responded that there may be no teachings explicit to homosexuality, but there are many teachings that impurities, spiritual dross, and other mortal weaknesses will be removed.
The only IF I employed is to state IF homosexuality falls into that category.
Based on the teaching of the Church and gospel, it does.  Therefore, although not explicitly named, it is implicitly logical that homosexuality would not continue into the eternities along with other negative characteristics once purification is complete.

The way I see it, one’s sinful use of his sexuality for happiness imposes a dark glass upon him, and this will be replaced with knowing himself more fully (on the plus side, seeing as he is seen and knowing as he is known; on the down side, having “a perfect knowledge of all [his] guilt”). Comfort and joy can begin in this life through faith in Christ, regardless of sexuality. I think Elder Bernard is trying to point out that the Plan is for pre-existing spiritual sons and daughters to have a mortal experience to confirm their faith (which includes the attribute of sexuality and making correct choices therein), not for pre-existing sexual beings to confirm their orientation in mortality.

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Can I mention here parenthetically that this entire problem is grounded in the development in Mormon doctrine of the idea that spirit children are procreated by exalted parents who were sealed in the temple?

This is the nubbin of the difficulty.

And it is a doctrine that was introduced after Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith's last word on the subject prior to his death was that spirits are eternal and "there is no creation about them."

First, you are not quoting Joseph Smith here.  You are quoting . . . yourself, I think.  

Second, Joseph Smith's discussion of the "creation" of spirits in the King Follet Discourse mirror his discussion of the "creation" of the earth.  That is, he was repudiating the concept of ex nihilo creation.  See here:

Quote

Now I ask all who hear me why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing. The reason is they are unlearned. They account it blasphemy to contradict the idea; they will call you a fool....The Holy Ghost within me comprehends more than all the world, and I will associate with him. The word create came from the word baurau; it does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize, the same as a man would organize materials to build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles that can never be destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized but not destroyed.

The next few paragraphs then delve into the "creation" of spirits (emphasis added):

Quote

I have another subject to dwell upon. It is impossible for me to say everything I would like to say about it, but I shall touch upon it; time will not permit me to say all. I am referring to the resurrection of the dead--that is, the soul, the mind of man, the immortal spirit. All men say God created it in the beginning. The very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it all ye ends of the world, for God has told me so. Before I get through, I will make a man appear a fool if he doesn't believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

We say that God himself is a self-existing God. Who told you so? It is correct enough, but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It doesn't say so in the Hebrew; it says God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so he became a living body.

The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their friends and relatives are separated from their bodies for only a short season; their spirits existed coequal with God, and they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic. I want to reason further on the spirit of man, for I am dwelling on the spirit and body of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.

So when Joseph Smith said in 1844 (when the above Discourse was given) that "there is no creation about it," he was referring to "intelligence."  Here he is expounding upon the concepts revealed to him in 1833 when he received D&C 93:29:

Quote

 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Third, I've never heard of a "Mormon doctrine of the idea that spirit children are procreated by exalted parents who were sealed in the temple."  This seems a bit cobbled together (I'm not saying it's incorrect, only that information phrased and presented this way seems like a novelty).

Fourth, there are ample scriptural references to mankind being the children of God.  Psalms 82:6 is a good one.  And Jeremiah 1:5.  And Acts 17:29.  And Hebrews 12:9.  And quite a few more.

Fifth, I don't think scriptures should be read in isolation.  Context matters.  A lot.  I don't claim to fully comprehend what an "intelligence" is, or the process by which intelligences became the spirit children of God.  The EOM entry on this subject is a helpful:

Quote

The word "intelligences" (plural) occurs frequently in LDS literature, having reference to the period of the premortal existence of mankind. The term has received two interpretations by writers within the Church: as the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents and as individual entities existing prior to their spirit birth. Because latter-day revelation has not clarified the meaning of the term, a more precise interpretation is not possible at present.

...

Concerning man's premortal existence, the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29). "Intelligence," as used here, is singular, and it is not clear from this passage if it refers to individual, conscious identity. As noted, Abraham referred to the spirit offspring of God as organized intelligences, apparently using the word "intelligences" to mean "spirits." Church authorities have indicated that spirit birth was not the beginning. Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969). Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, speaking of people's divine origin as children of God, stated, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14). Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle, wrote: Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities (Abr. 3:22-24). Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge, power, and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence [MD, p. 387].

While the revelations leave no doubt as to the existence of intelligent matter prior to its being organized as spirits, speculation sometimes arises regarding the nature of premortal existence and whether there was individual identity and consciousness prior to birth as a spirit. Some hold that the terms "intelligence" and "intelligences" have reference to a form of prespirit conscious self-existence, which included individual identity, variety, and agency (so reasoned B. H. Roberts, pp. 401-423). Others maintain that while these characteristics, attributes, and conditions are eternal, they essentially came together for each individual at the spirit birth. The question of whether prespirit intelligence had individual identity and consciousness remains unanswered. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith gave this caution in 1936: Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual [p. 10].

No formal pronouncements have been made by the leading councils of the Church to clarify what additional meanings and attributes may be assigned to the word "intelligences," beyond that which identifies intelligences as spirit children of God. 

Sixth, the concept of "Heavenly Parents" was apparently taught by Joseph Smith.

So the "we are the children of God" concept is not a novelty.  It has a rather lengthy scriptural pedigree.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by smac97

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The scripture you cite says that the inhabitants of the worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through Christ!

Yes, we come into the various world(s), both spiritual and physical, through Christ who leads the way in His various roles such as the Firstborn, the Creator, the Redeemer, the Judge, etc. Each world you can think of ever having been in, or hope to be in, has Christ standing at the gate making it possible for you to progress.

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Joseph Smith's last word on the subject prior to his death was that spirits are eternal and "there is no creation about them."

Yet Jesus, as eternal as He is, was also the Firstborn at some point, and this is a very old doctrine. So the problem of insisting that gender is not an eternal characteristic is grounded in not understanding that no matter how far back one goes, it is only through Christ that sons and daughters are begotten--most simply by the fact that He was first (otherwise we could not be next). There is no world where there was no Christ leading the way before us, nor a world where we are not co-eternal with Him, and thus we have always been begotten sons and daughters through Him.

Edited March 1, 2016 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

"Reasonable" to you, not to everyone.  So no, it's not the only reasonable explanation.

You are issuing a CFR for what I believe?   I simply believe that God will not force people to be with anyone they choose not to be with and He will also not force anyone to be apart from the one they love.

No, I am issuing a CFR that what you believe has ANY evidence in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ instead of wishful thinking.
Not the force to be together part - that's basic agency.  But the force to be apart is a function of obedience to the same laws.

You are welcome to believe anything you want without gospel evidence.  It is the ONLY reasonable explanation based on the gospel and the logical application of gospel teaching.

Quote

I also believe that women will not be forced to live polygamy in the next life (even if they have been sealed to a man who has had multiple other wives sealed to them).

Nobody will be forced to do anything.  God gives agency, and applies consequences for our exercise of that agency.
I am not a huge champion of agency.  Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because it falsely implies we get to do what we want.
True agency is only to follow good or not follow good and reap the consequences either way.
 

Edited March 1, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I am issuing a CFR that what you believe has ANY evidence in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ instead of wishful thinking.
Not the force to be together part - that's basic agency.  But the force to be apart is a function of obedience to the same laws.

You are welcome to believe anything you want without gospel evidence.  It is the ONLY reasonable explanation based on the gospel and the logical application of gospel teaching.

Nobody will be forced to do anything.  God gives agency, and applies consequences for our exercise of that agency.
I am not a huge champion of agency.  Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because it falsely implies we get to do what we want.
True agency is only to follow good or not follow good and reap the consequences either way.
 

So I think you are a champion of agency as it is properly taught and understood, as distinguished from how it is often distorted and misinterpreted.

[ALarson]

JHLPROF,

So, you're issuing a CFR for something that I never stated?  Sorry, I don't feel I need to answer that request or supply references to prove or support something I never stated.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

JHLPROF,

So, you're issuing a CFR for something that I never stated?  Sorry, I don't feel I need to answer that request or supply references to prove or support something I never stated.

 

 

So you never stated your beliefs had any basis in the gospel.
Fair enough.  CFR withdrawn.

As long as we are getting to make things up to make us feel better...I need to go think about what things I want in heaven that have no basis.
Maybe a winged horse or two for ease of transport.

Edited March 1, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you never stated your beliefs had any basis in the gospel.
Fair enough.  CFR withdrawn.

No statements from leaders in the "Restored Gospel" (as that's what you asked for).    As far as I know, there are no statements past or present from leaders of our church expressing that gay couples will be together after this life.  So yes, we agree on that.

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No statements from leaders in the "Restored Gospel" (as that's what you asked for).    As far as I know, there are no statements past or present from leaders of our church expressing that gay couples will be together after this life.  So yes, we agree on that.

And there are ample references from the scriptures and from modern prophets and apostles that the only familial relationships that will endure in the eternities are those which are sealed.  See, e.g., D&C 132:15 ("Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."); D&C 132:7 ("And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."); D&C 132:18 ("And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.").

There is no foundation for speculation about same-sex relationships in the eternities.  None.  At all.  The foregoing scriptures appear to foreclose such a thing as even a possibility.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

One wrong scriptural reference at a time, please!

The scripture you cite says that the inhabitants of the worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through Christ!

This has to do with a spiritual adoption; not a physical or spiritual creation.

It has nothing to do with the creation of gender.

You are wresting the scripture.

Such wresting is necessary only when one's fundamental position is incorrect.

Rep Point!

[Daniel2]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And there are ample references from the scriptures and from modern prophets and apostles that the only familial relationships that will endure in the eternities are those which are sealed.  See, e.g., D&C 132:15 ("Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."); D&C 132:7 ("And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."); D&C 132:18 ("And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.").

There is no foundation for speculation about same-sex relationships in the eternities.  None.  At all.  The foregoing scriptures appear to foreclose such a thing as even a possibility.

Thanks,

-Smac

Nothing in what you quoted above which basically affirms the need for opposite-sex marriages to be authorized by God ipso-facto precludes the possibility that God could someday sanction a covenant-based, eternally-sealed relationships between same-sex couples.  None. At all.  The foregoing scriptures appear to be entirely silent about same-sex relationships, and God could reveal a new covenant which may have seemed entirely implausible to earlier generations of church members.

Thanks,

Daniel

Edited March 1, 2016 by Daniel2

[Storm Rider]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And there are ample references from the scriptures and from modern prophets and apostles that the only familial relationships that will endure in the eternities are those which are sealed.  See, e.g., D&C 132:15 ("Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."); D&C 132:7 ("And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."); D&C 132:18 ("And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.").

There is no foundation for speculation about same-sex relationships in the eternities.  None.  At all.  The foregoing scriptures appear to foreclose such a thing as even a possibility.

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac, these will be ignored because they conflict too strongly with the point being strained at.  Don't bring them up again; it just clouds the issue.  Deduct three points for unfair play. 

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

There is no foundation for speculation about same-sex relationships in the eternities.  None.  At all.  The foregoing scriptures appear to foreclose such a thing as even a possibility.

Nope, not in the Doctrine and Covenants.  I never said there was.  But there is a lot that is not in there or in the Bible that I believe will be taken care of or allowed by God after this life.  Everything does not have to be spelled out in the scriptures.

I believe that those who are in a SSM and have lived a good life, will be allowed to be with their spouse who they love.  I firmly believe that God will not force them to be apart. Their love is as deep and good as any love between any other married individuals.  I know of several of these couples (some that I've very close to) and their love and goodness is evident just being around them.

We can continue going back and forth, but I feel there's nothing that will change your mind just as there's nothing that will change my mind on this.  I respect your right to believe as you do, and I hope you'll do the same in return.

.

Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson