bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I'm looking for information more than anything else. I've seen it claimed, and claimed it myself in the past, that there have been (or currently are) living women who received permission to be sealed to more than one husband. But after the latest thread on polygamy, the historian is starting to come out in me and i'm realizing that, other than hearsay, i personally have no sources to support that information. I'm not doubting it, it's just that I've only ever heard it claimed on this board, and only by the same two or three people (and i don't remember what their sources were) and I don't like having nothing to cite to support a factual claim. I think it's an incredibly interesting subject and I want to continue to be able to share the idea that such sealings have and do happen, but I'm no longer comfortable doing so without getting a better handle on where my information is coming from. So, who here personally knows of this happening? Who's heard of it happening? How many women has anyone heard of this applying to? Really, any information is welcome. I'm not looking to be able to prove this is occurring. I just want to have better evidence to support the claim than I now have.
JAHS Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) If it has happened it was against current policy or it was some sort of mistake. What you suggest can only happen if all parties are dead. A living woman can only be sealed to a second man after her previous sealing has been canceled. But as always, permission from the First Presidency can and has in the past trumped policy for special circumstances. Edited February 17, 2016 by JAHS 1
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm looking for information more than anything else. I've seen it claimed, and claimed it myself in the past, that there have been (or currently are) living women who received permission to be sealed to more than one husband. But after the latest thread on polygamy, the historian is starting to come out in me and i'm realizing that, other than hearsay, i personally have no sources to support that information. I'm not doubting it, it's just that I've only ever heard it claimed on this board, and only by the same two or three people (and i don't remember what their sources were) and I don't like having nothing to cite to support a factual claim. I think it's an incredibly interesting subject and I want to continue to be able to share the idea that such sealings have and do happen, but I'm no longer comfortable doing so without getting a better handle on where my information is coming from. So, who here personally knows of this happening? Who's heard of it happening? How many women has anyone heard of this applying to? Really, any information is welcome. I'm not looking to be able to prove this is occurring. I just want to have better evidence to support the claim than I now have. You mean in the past, say in the days of polygamy or in more recent years? Like a woman get's married and sealed to a man. He dies and she remarries getting permission to be sealed to her new husband? Edited February 17, 2016 by stemelbow
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm looking for information more than anything else. I've seen it claimed, and claimed it myself in the past, that there have been (or currently are) living women who received permission to be sealed to more than one husband. But after the latest thread on polygamy, the historian is starting to come out in me and i'm realizing that, other than hearsay, i personally have no sources to support that information. I'm not doubting it, it's just that I've only ever heard it claimed on this board, and only by the same two or three people (and i don't remember what their sources were) and I don't like having nothing to cite to support a factual claim. I think it's an incredibly interesting subject and I want to continue to be able to share the idea that such sealings have and do happen, but I'm no longer comfortable doing so without getting a better handle on where my information is coming from. So, who here personally knows of this happening? Who's heard of it happening? How many women has anyone heard of this applying to? Really, any information is welcome. I'm not looking to be able to prove this is occurring. I just want to have better evidence to support the claim than I now have. I personally think that sealings give us comfort in this life that we will be with our loved ones. I believe that we WILL be with our loved ones IF we "qualify" through faithfulness, but have no idea how this will work out. The idea that, in situations like this, we have to go through the ordinance to get it "right" or else we might not be with someone we love, is superstition. I believe we must concentrate on getting to the "celestial kingdom" though we cannot presently conceive of what that will be in our puny brains. We have stories about it to help us understand but the important thing is doing the ABSOLUTE best we can here. So honestly, I think that this is kind of like worrying about creation and the details of when and how it happened. These are the unknowables of life, what we need to do is follow our hearts to do our best and let God do the rest. That's my story and I am sticking to it. 5
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, JAHS said: If it has happened it was against current policy or it was some sort of mistake. What you suggest can only happen if all parties are dead. But as always, permission from the First Presidency can and has in the past trumped policy for special circumstances. Yes, it has been claimed that some women have received first presidency permission to be sealed to more than one husband while living.
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm looking for information more than anything else. I've seen it claimed, and claimed it myself in the past, that there have been (or currently are) living women who received permission to be sealed to more than one husband. But after the latest thread on polygamy, the historian is starting to come out in me and i'm realizing that, other than hearsay, i personally have no sources to support that information. I'm not doubting it, it's just that I've only ever heard it claimed on this board, and only by the same two or three people (and i don't remember what their sources were) and I don't like having nothing to cite to support a factual claim. I think it's an incredibly interesting subject and I want to continue to be able to share the idea that such sealings have and do happen, but I'm no longer comfortable doing so without getting a better handle on where my information is coming from. So, who here personally knows of this happening? Who's heard of it happening? How many women has anyone heard of this applying to? Really, any information is welcome. I'm not looking to be able to prove this is occurring. I just want to have better evidence to support the claim than I now have. I cannot speak to current practices (I know Cal and Juliann both claim knowledge of current polyandrous sealings taking place). But speaking historically, the only polyandrous sealing (not marriage, but eternal sealing) that I know of on record is Marinda Hyde. She was married to Orson Hyde, sealed to Joseph for eternity, and then after his death, sealed to Orson possibly just for time but possibly for eternity. She is the only possible polydanrous sealing I am aware of. And polyandrous sealings were positively universally denounced by the leaders of the Church during the days of polygamy. When asked in 1852, “What do you think of a woman having more husbands than one?” Brigham Young answered, “This is not known to the law." “God has strictly forbidden, in this Bible, plurality of husbands, and proclaimed against it in his law. Can a woman have more than one husband at the same time? No: Such a principle was never sanctioned by scripture." - Orson Pratt On October 8, 1869, Apostle George A. Smith taught that “a plurality of husbands is wrong.” Joseph F. Smith wrote in 1889: “Polyandry is wrong, physiologically, morally, and from a scriptural point of order. It is nowhere sanctioned in the Bible, nor by the law of God or nature and has not affinity with ‘Mormon’ plural marriage.” Edited February 17, 2016 by JLHPROF 2
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, stemelbow said: You mean in the past, say in the days of polygamy or in more recent years? Like a woman get's married and sealed to a man. He dies and she remarries getting permission to be sealed to her new husband? I'm specifically asking about it happening in more recent years.
stemelbow Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Just now, bluebell said: I'm specifically asking about it happening in more recent years. Ok. Haven't heard of it. But it's an interesting consideration. I'll continue to check in to see what comes of this. 1
Ahab Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 My wife was sealed to her first husband, who later died, and now she is sealed to me. We had to talk with our stake president about it and get permission from the first presidency for her to be loosed from her first husband so that she could then be sealed to me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Some people seem to forget that the keys that seal can also be used to loose things too. 2
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Ahab said: My wife was sealed to her first husband, who later died, and now she is sealed to me. We had to talk with our stake president about it and get permission from the first presidency for her to be loosed from her first husband so that she could then be sealed to me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Some people seem to forget that the keys that seal can also be used to loose things too. So she's still only sealed to one husband though, right? I'm asking about claims that women have been sealed to both a dead husband and a living husband at the same time. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: So she's still only sealed to one husband though, right? I'm asking about claims that women have been sealed to both a dead husband and a living husband at the same time. If evidence is found and provided, the next question that would have to be answered is "are those sealings valid/accepted by God"? If the current GA's aren't teaching it is acceptable (CHI) and previous GA's taught that it is completely unacceptable, the average member would have no reason to believe eternal polyandry is a correct principle.
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 Just now, JLHPROF said: If the current GA's aren't teaching it is acceptable (CHI) and previous GA's taught that it is completely unacceptable, the average member would have no reason to believe eternal polyandry is a correct principle. I agree.
cinepro Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: My wife was sealed to her first husband, who later died, and now she is sealed to me. We had to talk with our stake president about it and get permission from the first presidency for her to be loosed from her first husband so that she could then be sealed to me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Some people seem to forget that the keys that seal can also be used to loose things too. If I may ask, what was it that facilitated the "loosening" to the first husband? If you hadn't come along, would she have stayed sealed to him and planned on spending the rest of eternity with him, or was it a situation where under no condition would she have remained sealed to him but it wasn't until a second marriage that the breaking of the first sealing could be approved?
ALarson Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: My wife was sealed to her first husband, who later died, and now she is sealed to me. We had to talk with our stake president about it and get permission from the first presidency for her to be loosed from her first husband so that she could then be sealed to me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Some people seem to forget that the keys that seal can also be used to loose things too. It's called a "sealing cancellation" that is necessary for a woman to receive before she can be sealed to a second husband. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that she was "loosed from her first husband"? Did your wife apply for and receive a sealing cancellation? Sealing cancellations are not really that uncommon (and for men to receive what is called a "sealing clearance", so he can be sealed to another wife, but the sealing is not cancelled usually until his first wife is sealed to another man). I do remember Calm posting that she knows of instances where the woman was not required to get a sealing cancellation prior to being sealed to a 2nd husband, so I am also interested in learning more about that too. . Edited February 17, 2016 by ALarson
rongo Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I can supply you anecdotal evidence (my own personal knowledge), but nothing that I can produce CFR evidence for. I am personally aware of cases (not many) where women have received First Presidency authorization to be sealed to a man while still being sealed to another living man (civil divorce). CHI 1 says that this cannot be done, but exceptions are granted because they exist. I think it is very rare, and in almost all cases, the woman will be required to get a cancellation of sealing and a sealing clearance.. We live complicated, messy lives with complicated, messy flowcharts and circumstances, and I'm actually heartened by the fact that exceptions to policy are possible. This possibility gives hope that would be gone if we could only slavishly adhere to policies, no matter what, worlds without end. The priesthood keys that we say we sustain in the 4th TR question mean something. The President of the Church possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys, even if this might mean countermanding an existing policy.
Ahab Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 1 hour ago, cinepro said: If I may ask, what was it that facilitated the "loosening" to the first husband? If you hadn't come along, would she have stayed sealed to him and planned on spending the rest of eternity with him, or was it a situation where under no condition would she have remained sealed to him but it wasn't until a second marriage that the breaking of the first sealing could be approved? We wanted to be sealed together and were made to understand that would be possible only if she was loosed from her first husband. He had said before he died that he wanted her to remarry but that was before she had met me and she had no intention of marrying me or any other man then so yes had she not met me or another man she wanted to marry she likely would have remained in her first sealing. They loved each other and had a good marriage. She still has 2 sons from her first husband, which I informally call my own now, and the sealing to them is still in tact as we understand. Just not to her first husband because she was made to understand that she needed to choose between him and me.
rongo Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 An example I am aware of involving an intact sealing to a deceased husband and a current sealing is the cousin of a mission companion of mine. He idolized his cousin, and even wore a fork from their favorite restaurant bent around his wrist. His cousin was sealed to a girl, and six months after they were married began having repeated vivid dreams about dying in a car crash. He died in a crash identical to his dream, after only being married six months or so. She met another man and was authorized to be sealed to him without dissolving her sealing to her first husband. Under the circumstances, what else can they do? Require her to remain celibate but sealed, or marry another husband civilly (for time only) at a very young age? Any LDS man worth having would want to be sealed to her. 2
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 21 minutes ago, rongo said: I can supply you anecdotal evidence (my own personal knowledge), but nothing that I can produce CFR evidence for. I am personally aware of cases (not many) where women have received First Presidency authorization to be sealed to a man while still being sealed to another living man (civil divorce). CHI 1 says that this cannot be done, but exceptions are granted because they exist. I think it is very rare, and in almost all cases, the woman will be required to get a cancellation of sealing and a sealing clearance.. We live complicated, messy lives with complicated, messy flowcharts and circumstances, and I'm actually heartened by the fact that exceptions to policy are possible. This possibility gives hope that would be gone if we could only slavishly adhere to policies, no matter what, worlds without end. The priesthood keys that we say we sustain in the 4th TR question mean something. The President of the Church possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys, even if this might mean countermanding an existing policy. Thanks! I'm really not looking for anything close to a CFR situation. I just want something more than "hey, i heard this once..." Do you know of any situations where it happened and the woman wasn't legally divorced from one of the men? I'm asking because that would seem to be important, if this is ever used to support the idea that the church has legitimatized something that would lead to polyandry. If a woman is divorced though, it seems like the expectation is that she will not continue to be sealed to both men in Heaven (maybe i'm wrong on that expectation though). (And just to clarify, i don't have anything against the idea of polyandry in and of itself. I just don't want to be making claims that have to do with it that turn out to not actually have anything to do with-if that makes any sense).
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Popular Post Posted February 17, 2016 21 minutes ago, Ahab said: Just not to her first husband because she was made to understand that she needed to choose between him and me. This is what a lot of women have a problem with (me as well). It seems cruel to expect women to choose between two men that they love (and might even have children from) when men are not asked to make anything close to that kind of a sacrifice. 7
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 13 minutes ago, rongo said: An example I am aware of involving an intact sealing to a deceased husband and a current sealing is the cousin of a mission companion of mine. He idolized his cousin, and even wore a fork from their favorite restaurant bent around his wrist. His cousin was sealed to a girl, and six months after they were married began having repeated vivid dreams about dying in a car crash. He died in a crash identical to his dream, after only being married six months or so. She met another man and was authorized to be sealed to him without dissolving her sealing to her first husband. Under the circumstances, what else can they do? Require her to remain celibate but sealed, or marry another husband civilly (for time only) at a very young age? Any LDS man worth having would want to be sealed to her. Very interesting, thanks.
Jeanne Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 A woman in my old ward was sealed to her husband and had 3 children. They were civilly divorced. She can't stand him.. and is quite distraught that she will have eternity with him...that could be fixed right? But it would have to be with his consent..which he give..and has not remarried. She lives in fear of this! Sad..me thinks.
california boy Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 26 minutes ago, Ahab said: We wanted to be sealed together and were made to understand that would be possible only if she was loosed from her first husband. He had said before he died that he wanted her to remarry but that was before she had met me and she had no intention of marrying me or any other man then so yes had she not met me or another man she wanted to marry she likely would have remained in her first sealing. They loved each other and had a good marriage. She still has 2 sons from her first husband, which I informally call my own now, and the sealing to them is still in tact as we understand. Just not to her first husband because she was made to understand that she needed to choose between him and me. So what happens to the first husband? Is he not allowed to spend eternity with the one he loves? What if he doesn't want to marry someone else??
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 My aunt has been married 3 times. Her first husband died who she is sealed to and wanted to be sealed to her 2nd husband but the church didn't allow it and they ended up getting divorced, and then she married her 3rd husband and wanted to be sealed to him as well, but the church didn't allow it and them not being sealed was one of the reasons she said that he wanted a divorce because they weren't going to be together in the eternities. So now she's divorced again and changed her last name back to her first husband's last name. She was denied being sealed to her new husband twice so I know at least in my aunt's case it wasn't allowed.
Calm Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, JAHS said: If it has happened it was against current policy or it was some sort of mistake. What you suggest can only happen if all parties are dead. A living woman can only be sealed to a second man after her previous sealing has been canceled. But as always, permission from the First Presidency can and has in the past trumped policy for special circumstances. Getting approval from the First Presidency for the exception to take place...how can that be either against current policy or a mistake? The process is to have your bishop submit a request for an exception to be made. I have seen several reports and personally know a bishop who successfully submitted the request. I don't know of anyone collecting names. I suspect most would prefer their relationships noy to be talked about all o er the internet.
ALarson Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: This is what a lot of women have a problem with (me as well). It seems cruel to expect women to choose between two men that they love (and might even have children from) when men are not asked to make anything close to that kind of a sacrifice. I agree. I wonder if this is why the church leaders have relaxed on this policy? As it is, there are men who are still sealed to their first wife (who they have civilly divorced) and they are also sealed to their second wife. I know of a few in our stake who are in this position. They were told that until their first wife remarries in the temple, he only has a sealing clearance (not a cancellation) regarding the sealing to his first wife. This is so the first wife is not without the blessings of the sealing (at least that's how it was explained to me). She can receive a sealing cancellation just prior to her being sealed to another man and will remained sealed to her first husband until then (even though they are civilly divorced).
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