JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I know you are more interested in current examples and I don't mean to derail. But given the topics being raised on this blog another teaching of the prophets sprang to mind: Quote President John Taylor April 8, 1853 For instance, a good man dies, who has served God in righteousness all his days; the weary wheels of life stand still, and he goes to the world of spirits. He believed in the principles of justice, equity, righteousness, and truth, and that his rights would be held sacred to him by his brethren after he was gone. But some professed man of God comes to his widow, and wants to steal her away from him; he would rob the dead with impunity, under the ostensible garb of justice to her and her dead husband; he will tell her he is doing it out of pure love to them both, and he is going to exalt them in the kingdom of God. We read of the kingdom of God suffering violence; if violence is ever attempted, it is in a case of this kind. It is bad enough to steal from a man his earthly property, his oxen, his cow, his horse, his harness, his wagon wheels, and other paraphernalia; but what think you of a man that would rob the dead of a treasure which he holds the most dear, and prized as the most precious thing he possessed on earth—his affectionate wife! Such a person will assuredly miss his figure. You will find in the ancient laws of Israel, there were proper rules in relation to these matters; one was, that if a man died without a child, his brother or the nearest relation of the husband should take the widow; and raise up seed to her husband, that his name might be continued in Israel, and not be blotted out. Where did these laws come from? We are told they came from God. But instead of doing this, suppose he should try to steal this woman away, and rob his brother—how would he get along, I wonder, with such a case against him, at the bar of justice? The laws and ordinances that exist in the eternal world have their pattern in the things which are revealed to the children of men on earth. The Priesthood as it exists on the earth is a pattern of things in heaven.
Ahab Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: This is what a lot of women have a problem with (me as well). It seems cruel to expect women to choose between two men that they love (and might even have children from) when men are not asked to make anything close to that kind of a sacrifice. I have no doubt that she still loves and will continue to love him forever, and that is all well and good. We might even end up being neighbors with him and his new wife and spend lots of our time together, especially when we're visiting with her and his sons and their families. Nothing to regret. Nothing wrong here. If she didn't want to marry me she didn't have to. And I would have understood. 2
Calm Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) The case I know of personally was a young widow, not a divorce. (note: I realized the age was an assumption and she most likely was at least in her thirties) Edited February 17, 2016 by Calm 1
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jeanne said: A woman in my old ward was sealed to her husband and had 3 children. They were civilly divorced. She can't stand him.. and is quite distraught that she will have eternity with him...that could be fixed right? But it would have to be with his consent..which he give..and has not remarried. She lives in fear of this! Sad..me thinks. The doctrine (if it can be called that) that i've always heard is the woman will not be sealed to him in Heaven-that the sealing remains only because she receives essential blessings from that sealing from God and not because it has anything to do with her ex-husband anymore. And I've never heard that the ex husband has to give consent, but maybe that's true, i don't know.
Ahab Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, california boy said: So what happens to the first husband? Is he not allowed to spend eternity with the one he loves? What if he doesn't want to marry someone else?? Now that the woman who was his wife has chosen to be sealed to me I suppose he will find another woman to marry while being happy for us as well as himself and his new wife. I'm sure he will want to marry again. From what I know of him he is the kind of man who loved and easily loves everybody, so loving another woman is no problem at all.
bluebell Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 13 minutes ago, ALarson said: I agree. I wonder if this is why the church leaders have relaxed on this policy? If the only time these exceptions are ever granted are in cases of divorce or young widows, then I wonder that as well. I wonder if it's granted in cases where the emotional toll on the woman is too great and having a second sealing is emotionally helpful. 1
Jeanne Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: The doctrine (if it can be called that) that i've always heard is the woman will not be sealed to him in Heaven-that the sealing remains only because she receives essential blessings from that sealing from God and not because it has anything to do with her ex-husband anymore. And I've never heard that the ex husband has to give consent, but maybe that's true, i don't know. Thanks for the info. what a blessing then!!
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 In terms of widowed men and women being sealed to a 2nd person, I always wonder how the first spouse feels about the 2nd sealing in the spirit world. Like can they be upset at their spouse while in the spirit world for doing this? I'm talking in both gender circumstances.
ALarson Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: And I've never heard that the ex husband has to give consent, but maybe that's true, i don't know. The ex-husband has to submit a statement when she wants to be sealed to another man (when she applies for a cancellation of their sealing). If he remarries in the temple prior to that, she also has to submit a statement (mainly regarding financial obligations, current on support payments, etc., or if there is anything that needs to be cleared up before he should be sealed again to someone else). But he only receives a sealing clearance at that time and remains sealed to his ex-wife. I think it's all pretty messy myself and just believe we will be with the person we love (if they still want to be with us too). I can't see God forcing anyone to be with someone they no longer love or wish to be married (or sealed) to. . Edited February 17, 2016 by ALarson 1
strappinglad Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Again , the idea that a woman will be eternally sealed to a man she despises is just off the wall wrong. Human earthly relationships are now so complex that I shudder to think how it will all be resolved. Most married couples are familiar with the truth that some days you dearly love your spouse and want to be together forever. Other days can stir up visions of tragic 'accidents ' . Will such contradictions be reconciled in the eternities or might there be times when Heavenly Mother wants Heavenly Father to " go build a world or something " so as to get Him out from under foot ? 2
ALarson Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 18 minutes ago, Calm said: The case I know of personally was a young widow, not a divorce. I can certainly see that a young widow would be considered differently than a divorce. That makes perfect sense, IMO.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 I still would like to know how the deceased spouse feels about their husband or wife doing another sealing. I can imagine them in heaven going "hey, you promised yourself to me only." I can imagine there might be some broken hearts and feelings of betrayal in heaven. That's how I would feel if I married a wife and then I died, and she got sealed to a 2nd man. I'd feel betrayed.
Calm Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 40 minutes ago, ALarson said: I can certainly see that a young widow would be considered differently than a divorce. That makes perfect sense, IMO. You know what, I assumed she was young probably because I had heard of it happening in those cases, but given who I know from the family she probably wasn't that young... in her late thirties perhaps. Just guessing, but that is more likely than in her 20s. So please change that in your mind to "widow". And when I get to a device I can use to edit, I will try and remember to correct that. 2
Maidservant Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: It is nowhere sanctioned in the Bible Abraham (may have had) three wives (at least two, there is some conflation of Hagar and Keturah in some minor theories). But we often don't realize that Sarah had three husbands also. It's right there staring us in the face, but we have learned how to read over it and not see it. 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If evidence is found and provided, the next question that would have to be answered is "are those sealings valid/accepted by God"? The Lord is bound. I would be very nervous about my covenants if, once I made them, they couldn't be trusted to be valid. "Whoops! Just kidding!" 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: A woman in my old ward was sealed to her husband and had 3 children. They were civilly divorced. She can't stand him.. and is quite distraught that she will have eternity with him...that could be fixed right? But it would have to be with his consent..which he give..and has not remarried. She lives in fear of this! Sad..me thinks. I can't imagine 'heaven' would have anything to do with being forced to do something against one's will. Heaven will be a place of agency, even greater than mortality, or as I imagine. Sealing is not a cattle brand of ownership. 2 hours ago, bluebell said: This is what a lot of women have a problem with (me as well). It seems cruel to expect women to choose between two men that they love (and might even have children from) when men are not asked to make anything close to that kind of a sacrifice. I am a widow (at the age of 33 but it's been over a decade now), sealed to a man that I don't particularly look forward to spending eternity with as a romantic partner. However, my family that I have with him, i.e. our six children, is VERY precious to both of us; and on that basis, I would like very much to keep that family and sealing intact. I don't want my children to have the experience of their parents being split, as I have suffered from that quite a bit in my earth life (being a child of divorce, although I know my parents did their best, and it's fine in the end now that I understand better as an adult). I'll even go so far as to say that, again, while I consider him basically the stranger I shared a house with for several years (although not really a bad guy), I do love that we are parents together and that our extended families are connected (through our children). I also want to say that I do feel the power of sealing in my life as I preside over my family. It's the patriarchal order. Not the priesthood I 'get' from my husband--but what we 'get' from each other. In fact, some of my Aaronic Priesthood sons (in good fun, I was not offended) have occasionally said something about them being highest priesthood in the home, and I have lovingly had to correct them, "No, you are not. I am. I have authority, keys, and power for the leading of this family, and you do not." I haven't found anyone since then that I really want to be with either, so it's still all a thought experiment in my head; but I can't imagine investing my love into a man, and becoming One with him as we are also commanded, only to say 'good-bye' to him when we die. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. So time will tell what will happen, but as I said above, I'm not owned. I'm free. So the right situation will take place for myself, my sealed (dead) husband, our children, and any other loves we may both have at that point. I imagine he has a spirit world girlfriend/wife by now :). I hope so. Why should he be alone, when his life could be full of affection and blessing? Tich jealous, sure, but I don't expect to have telestial thoughts and feelings like that for eternity, I expect my capacity to love will be much more expansive, and as Ahab envisions his future, we can all be great friends. I should mention that I feel like a woman who has been thrown on her husband's funeral pyre fire (as Hindu widows did once), as there is no chance that a man who desires a sealing and hasn't had one yet would touch me with a ten foot pole. I gave up confining my 'man pool' to LDS men only, as statistically the chances are close to zero. I'm just looking for a good man who suits me (which is easier said than done in all aspects). 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: [RE THE QUOTE THAT WOMEN CAN BE STOLEN, SIMILAR TO CATTLE AND OTHER PROPERTY] Really? lol Thank God that revelation and the light of Christ rolls on, so that we can understand today that women are perfectly capable of making a good decision for THEMSELVES about who they need to be with for a lifetime, or an eternity. Also when people make these heart-wrenching decisions (i.e. to loose a sealing to a past husband), I'm sure it is not done lightly and that part of the prayer and revelation process is to understand what the other party also may think or feel, as well as how it affects the children involved (who perhaps might be blessed with a loving and LIVING step-father? sounds familiar *cough* Joseph caring for Jesus *cough*). Hopefully those on the other side of the veil have a better perspective than we do, and wish us well as we work out our mortal lives including new relationships, but who knows. Edited February 17, 2016 by Maidservant 3
Jeanne Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Maidservent, I love your understanding and concepts here. Having my 38th wedding anniversary tomorrow with a husband that isn't here...girlfriend??? I am so.o.o. jealous!! 1
JAHS Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 3 hours ago, Calm said: Getting approval from the First Presidency for the exception to take place...how can that be either against current policy or a mistake? The process is to have your bishop submit a request for an exception to be made. I have seen several reports and personally know a bishop who successfully submitted the request. I don't know of anyone collecting names. I suspect most would prefer their relationships noy to be talked about all o er the internet. You know what I meant.(For some reason I can't enter the roll-eyes emoticon in here). Against "general" policy. Getting FP approval would provide an exception to the general policy.
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JAHS said: You know what I meant.(For some reason I can't enter the roll-eyes emoticon in here). Against "general" policy. Getting FP approval would provide an exception to the general policy. No, I didn't as it didn't make sense to me to just apply it to "general policy" and then say it was a "mistake" rather than just using "exception" so I assumed you meant it categorically. Thanks for the clarification. I don't play mindgames like that. Assume I've misread something if you think it reads that way. Edited February 18, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Having received some clarification, the personal instance was not told me by a man who was acting in his role of bishop when he helped out, but rather a man who was a bishop that helped out a friend.
JAHS Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, Calm said: No, I didn't as it didn't make sense to me to just apply it to "general policy" and then say it was a "mistake" rather than just using "exception" so I assumed you meant it categorically. Thanks for the clarification. I don't play mindgames like that. Assume I've misread something if you think it reads that way. OK. But I did finally get the emoticons to work
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 No one's addressed my concern with how the first spouse who has passed on husband or wife may feel about their spouse getting sealed to a 2nd person since they have no say in the matter because they're dead.
JAHS Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said: No one's addressed my concern with how the first spouse who has passed on husband or wife may feel about their spouse getting sealed to a 2nd person since they have no say in the matter because they're dead. You would have to ask them how they feel about it, which of course is impossible after they are dead. Hence the reason for deciding on the issue before anyone dies.
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 1 minute ago, JAHS said: You would have to ask them how they feel about it, which of course is impossible after they are dead. Hence the reason for deciding on the issue before anyone dies. It just seems like tough crap for the dead person, they have to accept and deal with their spouse bringing another person into themselves. It seems disrespectful to me to the dead spouse unless they gave permission for another sealing while alive.
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Tell you what VGJ , if you ever ( heaven forbid ) have an NDE , make it a priority to ask someone over there who happens to be in the know, just what their attitude is in your scenario. Then you can report to all and sundry here the solution. I do remember the NDE experience by a pastor who came back and related that he felt no family relationships at all there. This is contrary to a lot of others who express that they saw deceased relatives and recognized them as such even if they never knew them in mortality. Perhaps life in paradise is just as varied as it is here and now. I think I will go focus on the lesson I have to give when I go home teaching tomorrow.
rongo Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 The updated version of Duane Crowther's book "Life Everlasting" contains NDE accounts from non-Mormons as well as Mormons. What I find interesting is that the spirit world appears to be what people expect it to be, and that LDS people experience it differently from sectarian Christians or non-believers. In other words, entering the spirit world isn't going to be a big "ah ha!" moment where people realize that the Mormons were right. And, our missionaries in the spirit world encounter as much opposition as they do here on earth. After judgment and resurrection, we will know all and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, but not until then.
JLHPROF Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 12 minutes ago, rongo said: The updated version of Duane Crowther's book "Life Everlasting" contains NDE accounts from non-Mormons as well as Mormons. The updated version removed one of the most unusual doctrines I've ever come across in all of Mormonism. In fact, I think this was the only place I've ever seen it taught. It is absent in the 2006 reissue. I am pretty sure it used to contain the teaching that every child was required to be born on earth, and that any infants that were stillborn were allowed to return to earth again. If I am remembering incorrectly please let me know.
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