Sealing of more than one husband to living women

[rongo]

I'm not certain, but that's definitely something that's hard to nail down through Joseph Smith statements (parents being able to raise children who died during the Millennium, parameters and qualifications, etc.).

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It just seems like tough crap for the dead person, they have to accept and deal with their spouse bringing another person into themselves. It seems disrespectful to me to the dead spouse unless they gave permission for another sealing while alive.

Try to imagine a deceased man who actually loved his wife,  being more concerned about her happiness than his own. That's what true love is all about.  Not seeking your own happiness but getting lost in your concern for those that you love and doing what you can to help them to be happy. That's how I imagine my wife's first husband feeling.

My wife's love for her first husband was grounded in her knowledge that both he and she could love other people,  in fact all people, without any loss of love for anyone and that he was in a better place with many, many people who he could love who would also love him, including another woman to be his wife.

Love is truly an amazing thing.  Not some petty little emotion that can be overcome or conquered by some other feeling. Love conquers all and can never be conquered.  There is nothing better than love. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Try to imagine a deceased man who actually loved his wife,  being more concerned about her happiness than his own. That's what true love is all about.  Not seeking your own happiness but getting lost in your concern for those that you love and doing what you can to help them to be happy. That's how I imagine my wife's first husband feeling.

My wife's love for her first husband was grounded in her knowledge that both he and she could love other people,  in fact all people, without any loss of love for anyone and that he was in a better place with many, many people who he could love who would also love him, including another woman to be his wife.

Love is truly an amazing thing.  Not some petty little emotion that can be overcome or conquered by some other feeling. Love conquers all and can never be conquered.  There is nothing better than love. 

I don't mean to be rude and have no ill will with this question, but it's for my own curiosity on subjects like this. Do you feel your wife loves both of her husbands in her life equally, or do you think she has more affection for either you or her first husband? If I were a first husband that died, and then my wife remarried and had children with her 2nd wife, I'd feel worried that she'd love him more.

[Maidservant]

My mother and father were sealed in the temple as a young couple.  Shortly after the marriage, my father felt strong enough to live his true feelings instead of wearing a "Mormon mask".  He had fully lost his testimony while on a mission to Japan (although he still loves the people and culture).  I don't know how much a testimony he really had had, as his growing up life was full of abuse and alcoholism from his (Mormon) father; and he also had a much more loving (non-Mormon) mother.  (This was south east Idaho, by the way.)  His mission was the last attempt to get his father's love.  Strike.  The temple marriage, I'm not sure, but it was definitely what my young, naive, believing mother wanted.  Anyway, my father quickly went to alcohol, women, mistreating my mother (not physical abuse, just generalized selfish disrespect), and virulent hatred of the Church (which he still kept inside mostly).  Oddly enough, my dad's gift was being a dad and I remember his great love for us that he DEMONSTRATED and also he broke the cycle of abuse that he had been handed.  My father was excommunicated when I was very young.  I have a memory of my dad chasing the missionaries out of the house.  I mean, really, I had never heard him yell so loud and angry.  I was the oldest of 4 children.  The oldest 3 were born in the covenant, the 4th was born after my Dad's excommunication, so was not sealed.

My parents divorced shortly after my 8th birthday and baptism (not baptized by my dad, obviously).  My mother remarried by the next year to my step-father, I also call Dad.  He had also been excommunicated previously and he was re-baptized and they were married by the bishop on the same day.  To make a really long story short, my bio-dad's parental rights were terminated by the next year, and the four of us were legally adopted by my step-father.  One reason my mother wanted this to happen, was because she REALLY wanted my youngest brother (at the time) to be able to be sealed, this time in her new family.

My parents had their civil wedding in May of 1980 and it was February of 1983 by the time they were able to get sealed to each other, and have that brother sealed to them.  (The rest of us kids got to witness our brother being sealed, so I went to the temple at this early age (11) and it had a deep impression on me, seeing a sealing room with the mirrors and people in their full temple clothes, etc.)  Previous to this, of course, a lot of letter writing and statements and getting permission from the First Presidency and whatnot.  I was not old enough to really know every detail of what was involved.  Bruce R. McConkie came and Restored my father's blessings, as he had been previously endowed before his excommunication, so this official blessing simultaneously re-gave him his Melchizedek Priesthood and his endowed status, preparatory to being sealed to my mother.

A little of my step-dad's backstory.  He also had been married in the temple as a young man to his first wife and they had five kids.  But they were not church-y for very long either and that was a VERY dysfunctional marriage and family.  They divorced.  He had a second relationship of not married (and I believe the reason for the excommunication) although he later married her briefly.  No kids.  My mother was, then, his third wife.  I am not sure what status his sealing was and is to his first wife--if it was a cancellation or just a clearing (in order to move forward with my mother).  Even though my bio-dad was excommunicated, since my mother still kept her covenant, a specific permission was required for her, I think it amounted to a sealing cancellation from my bio-dad.  (Or, I don't know.)

My parents had three more children, all born in the covenant.  In fact, the next baby was born in March, so my mom was basically 8 months pregnant for her sealing.  Anyway, they were married for 17 years before divorcing also.

Important part of the story is that my bio-dad took his own life in 1994 (never re-married, always virulently anti-Mormon).

In his 70s now, step-dad married a lady in her 80s (4th wife).  She was sealed to her first husband with whom she had five children.  My father and mother, civilly divorced, were still sealed to each other.  (My mother actually did try to get the sealing cancelled as a single woman, but was told to have it remain intact until she married again.  She is single to this day, and, ostensibly, still sealed to my step-dad even though their relationship was barely amicable, lol.  Okay, he hates her.)  Dad and 4th wife were actually married in the temple for TIME, but I don't think they still do that any more.  Even then it was for special situations such as my step-dad and his previously a widow wife.

I never heard from her own mouth as to why, so I can only presume that 4th wife didn't want to change her sealing from her first husband to dad.  I can imagine it was to respect, at least, her children.  I don't know.  But no attempt was made for that while they were living.  My dad told me that her first husband didn't care for the church, and also my dad thought he disrespected his wife too much, but that their (now mutual) wife considered the first husband basically a good guy.  (He drank coffee!! That was one of dad's points of argument.)

Whereas dad with this cute wife was somewhat of a constant love affair, or it seemed.  Or who knows what was inside her mind.  Love her, she was an amazing lady, and I'm glad they blessed each others' life. Dad and 4th wife were very cute in love for the last 12 years of both their lives.

Meanwhile, with permission from the First Presidency (again the letter writing), my deceased bio-dad actually also had his blessings Restored, so he now has his Melchizedek Priesthood and Endowment restored post-humously [the process spear-headed by dad's older brother, still in the Church].  Can't remember exactly which year, but not long ago, so something like 20 years after his death.  It was felt that this was my dad's true desire, but I guess we will find out.  It brought ME peace, anyway.

Both my step-dad and his cute wife died just this last year, she in June and he in October.  When we were having her funeral, my dad pressed us, especially my brothers, to PLEEEASE get her and him sealed after both of their deaths (he didn't know his would be so soon, or did he?).  The thinking being that it is after their deaths that she can be sealed to more than one man.  However, my father still was under the impression that the 'rules' required that eventually she choose only one--either her first husband, or him.  And he felt very sad, insecure, jealous--pretty sure it was going to be him, but what if it wasn't? Not sure he was of a mind to share, lol. Not a peaceful feeling.  (And remember my mom is still sealed to him too, and possibly first wife as well.)

So the deaths have been too recent for anything to be done on this or even started, so we will see.

But anyway--I just think it's all crazy.  I get very little comfort from the doctrine of sealing and eternal families, for the story I have related and other situations in our family.  People say it will all be sorted.  Hmmm.  The things I have realized and concluded through my own personal revelation process, is that we will all be adults, we will all have better perspective (I hope) including greater love and desire for the welfare of others (not ourselves), and no one will be forced to be with anyone they don't want to be, AND no one can take away a relationship.  My dad is my dad is my dad is my dad.  No sealing done or lack of sealing can change this reality, because it was an event in time.  And we can continue to enjoy that relationship eternally.  No one would really stop us.  And I am blessed by having two dads, two moms, more siblings than is holy, this that and the other.  I think there is gonna be room for every body :), and we will be of one mind and one heart.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Maidservant

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I don't mean to be rude and have no ill will with this question, but it's for my own curiosity on subjects like this. Do you feel your wife loves both of her husbands in her life equally, or do you think she has more affection for either you or her first husband? If I were a first husband that died, and then my wife remarried and had children with her 2nd wife, I'd feel worried that she'd love him more.

She loves me differently than she loves and loved him, because we are different people with different strengths and weaknesses. Different personalities, too. 

To enjoy love it's better to not worry about piddly little things like who loves who more. The fact that she loves me at all, and as much as she does, is reward enough for my love of her.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I'd feel worried that she'd love him more.

When love is infinite, how can one love be "more" than another?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Just now, Calm said:

When love is infinite, how can one love be "more" than another?

That's a good thing to also tell women who are afraid of polygyny.

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The updated version removed one of the most unusual doctrines I've ever come across in all of Mormonism.
In fact, I think this was the only place I've ever seen it taught.  It is absent in the 2006 reissue.

I am pretty sure it used to contain the teaching that every child was required to be born on earth, and that any infants that were stillborn were allowed to return to earth again. If I am remembering incorrectly please let me know.

This is one of the first books I read as a teen..I remember something like that also. 

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Maidservant said:

My mother and father were sealed in the temple as a young couple.  Shortly after the marriage, my father felt strong enough to live his true feelings instead of wearing a "Mormon mask".  He had fully lost his testimony while on a mission to Japan (although he still loves the people and culture).  I don't know how much a testimony he really had had, as his growing up life was full of abuse and alcoholism from his (Mormon) father; and he also had a much more loving (non-Mormon) mother.  (This was south east Idaho, by the way.)  His mission was the last attempt to get his father's love.  Strike.  The temple marriage, I'm not sure, but it was definitely what my young, naive, believing mother wanted.  Anyway, my father quickly went to alcohol, women, mistreating my mother (not physical abuse, just generalized selfish disrespect), and virulent hatred of the Church (which he still kept inside mostly).  Oddly enough, my dad's gift was being a dad and I remember his great love for us that he DEMONSTRATED and also he broke the cycle of abuse that he had been handed.  My father was excommunicated when I was very young.  I have a memory of my dad chasing the missionaries out of the house.  I mean, really, I had never heard him yell so loud and angry.  I was the oldest of 4 children.  The oldest 3 were born in the covenant, the 4th was born after my Dad's excommunication, so was not sealed.

My parents divorced shortly after my 8th birthday and baptism (not baptized by my dad, obviously).  My mother remarried by the next year to my step-father, I also call Dad.  He had also been excommunicated previously and he was re-baptized and they were married by the bishop on the same day.  To make a really long story short, my bio-dad's parental rights were terminated by the next year, and the four of us were legally adopted by my step-father.  One reason my mother wanted this to happen, was because she REALLY wanted my youngest brother (at the time) to be able to be sealed, this time in her new family.

My parents had their civil wedding in May of 1980 and it was February of 1983 by the time they were able to get sealed to each other, and have that brother sealed to them.  (The rest of us kids got to witness our brother being sealed, so I went to the temple at this early age (11) and it had a deep impression on me, seeing a sealing room and all.)  Previous to this, of course, a lot of letter writing and statements and getting permission from the First Presidency and whatnot.  I was not old enough to really know every detail of what was involved.  Bruce R. McConkie came and Restored my father's blessings, as he had been previously endowed before his excommunication, so this official blessing simultaneously re-gave him his Melchizedek Priesthood and his endowed status, preparatory to being sealed to my mother.

A little of my step-dad's backstory.  He also had been married in the temple as a young man to his first wife and they had five kids.  But they were not church-y for very long either and that was a VERY dysfunctional marriage and family.  They divorced.  He had a second relationship of not married (and I believe the reason for the excommunication) although he later married her briefly.  No kids.  My mother was, then, his third wife.  I am not sure what status his sealing was and is to his first wife--if it was a cancellation or just a clearing (in order to move forward with my mother).  Even though my bio-dad was excommunicated, since my mother still kept her covenant, a specific permission was required for her, I think it amounted to a sealing cancellation from my bio-dad.  (Or, I don't know.)

My parents had three more children, all born in the covenant.  In fact, the next baby was born in March, so my mom was basically 8 months pregnant for her sealing.  Anyway, they were married for 17 years before divorcing also.

Important part of the story is that my bio-dad took his own life in 1994 (never re-married, always virulently anti-Mormon).

In his 70s now, step-dad married a lady in her 80s (4th wife).  She was sealed to her first husband with whom she had five children.  My father and mother, civilly divorced, were still sealed to each other.  (My mother actually did try to get the sealing cancelled as a single woman, but was told to have it remain intact until she married again.  She is single to this day, and, ostensibly, still sealed to my step-dad even though their relationship was barely amicable, lol.  Okay, he hates her.)  Dad and 4th wife were actually married in the temple for TIME, but I don't think they still do that any more.  Even then it was for special situations such as my step-dad and his previously a widow wife.

I never heard from her own mouth as to why, so I can only presume that 4th wife didn't want to change her sealing from her first husband to dad.  I can imagine it was to respect, at least, her children.  I don't know.  But no attempt was made for that while they were living.  My dad told me that her first husband didn't care for the church, and also my dad thought he disrespected his wife too much, but that their (now mutual) wife considered the first husband basically a good guy.  (He drank coffee!! That was one of dad's points of argument.)

Whereas dad with this cute wife was somewhat of a constant love affair, or it seemed.  Or who knows what was inside her mind.  Love her, she was an amazing lady, and I'm glad they blessed each others' life. Dad and 4th wife were very cute in love for the last 12 years of both their lives.

Meanwhile, with permission from the First Presidency (again the letter writing), my deceased bio-dad actually also had his blessings Restored, so he now has his Melchizedek Priesthood and Endowment restored post-humously [the process spear-headed by dad's older brother, still in the Church].  Can't remember exactly which year, but not long ago, so something like 20 years after his death.  It was felt that this was my dad's true desire, but I guess we will find out.  It brought ME peace, anyway.

Both my step-dad and his cute wife died just this last year, she in June and he in October.  When we were having her funeral, my dad pressed us, especially my brothers, to PLEEEASE get her and him sealed after both of their deaths (he didn't know his would be so soon, or did he?).  The thinking being that it is after their deaths that she can be sealed to more than one man.  However, my father still was under the impression that the 'rules' required that eventually she choose only one--either her first husband, or him.  And he felt very sad, insecure, jealous--pretty sure it was going to be him, but what if it wasn't? Not sure he was of a mind to share, lol. Not a peaceful feeling.  (And remember my mom is still sealed to him too, and possibly first wife as well.)

So the deaths have been too recent for anything to be done on this or even started, so we will see.

But anyway--I just think it's all crazy.  I get very little comfort from the doctrine of sealing and eternal families, for the story I have related and other situations in our family.  People say it will all be sorted.  Hmmm.  The things I have realized and concluded through my own personal revelation process, is that we will all be adults, we will all have better perspective (I hope) including greater love and desire for the welfare of others (not ourselves), and no one will be forced to be with anyone they don't want to be, AND no one can take away a relationship.  My dad is my dad is my dad is my dad.  No sealing done or lack of sealing can change this reality, because it was an event in time.  And we can continue to enjoy that relationship eternally.  No one would really stop us.  And I am blessed by having two dads, two moms, more siblings than is holy, this that and the other.  I think there is gonna be room for every body :), and we will be of one mind and one heart.

Wow.  There have been great highs and lows for your family..I am glad that you have found some peace in all of this and that your love encompasses all.  Your geneology must be volumes!!  I am sorry about your bio-Dad.  This must have been very difficult for the family and its dynamics.  I hope all you wish for.comes to fruit.

[Calm]

Family is so confusing in so many ways on so many levels...and we want them to be eternal.  Humans are so absurd.

[Rain]

14 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Wow.  There have been great highs and lows for your family..I am glad that you have found some peace in all of this and that your love encompasses all.  Your geneology must be volumes!!  I am sorry about your bio-Dad.  This must have been very difficult for the family and its dynamics.  I hope all you wish for.comes to fruit.

I tried to send a message to you, but it said you can't receive messages. So this is off topic. Sorry.

I think I just figured out something that may help you. You have often come across as snippy or disrespectful to me in some of your posts, but it didn't seem like you were that kind of person in general. With this last post I was caught because your words seemed truly supportive, but was still uncomfortable to me. Then I think I figured it out.

I wonder if you realize the smiley you are using   is rolling his eyes, a sign of disrespect. You might consider using instead if you are meaning to be friendly and supportive.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Rain

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I tried to send a message to you, but it said you can't receive messages. So this is off topic. Sorry.

I think I just figured out something that may help you. You have often come across as snippy or disrespectful to me in your posts, but it didn't seem like you were that kind of person in general. With this last post I was caught because your words seemed truly supportive, but was still uncomfortable to me. Then I think I figured it out.

I wonder if you realize the smiley you are using   is rolling his eyes, a sign of disrespect. You might consider using instead if you are meaning to be friendly and supportive.

OH...no..I didn't realize this cute smiley was given the wrong impression..thank you..I can' see on this little laptop worth a hoot!  BTW:  I don't mean to be snippy..actually, I am a nice old lady...but thanks...  I am sincere in all my posts.  A lot of you might not realize that I really do care about the people on this board.

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

OH...no..I didn't realize this cute smiley was given the wrong impression..thank you..I can' see on this little laptop worth a hoot!  BTW:  I don't mean to be snippy..actually, I am a nice old lady...but thanks...  I am sincere in all my posts.  A lot of you might not realize that I really do care about the people on this board.

Good! I hope I didn’t hurt you with what I said. It does make me want to go through and read a lot of your posts now and see how the knowledge changes my understanding of what you said.

[Jeanne]

21 minutes ago, Rain said:

Good! I hope I didn’t hurt you with what I said. It does make me want to go through and read a lot of your posts now and see how the knowledge changes my understanding of what you said.

Gees...I am so glad you said somethiing...btw:  I have cleared some space for my pm's.

[rongo]

20 hours ago, Maidservant said:

 (This was south east Idaho, by the way.) 

I'm not prying for information, and you don't have to say anything, but I just wanted to let you know that I grew up in Weston (near Preston) until I was 10. I absolutely loved it there and have fond memories of everything there. 

Your family history reminded me that even in a heavily-LDS area like southeast Idaho (where almost everyone is LDS), there are problems and less-than-perfect homes.

[juliann]

Maidservant, your story is a perfect example that the unequal sealing policies are hurting people in real time. Not to mention how much work it causes.  

About questions of getting spouse permission for sealing cancellations: I obtained a cancellation. They did, I was told, track down my ex. He apparently said no which struck me as odd after so many years. It didn't matter, it seemed more of a formality. (But it involved drug abuse and such things.)  I received special permission for my next step.

In my experience it is  Stake Prez who is the engine behind these things. We were in the same ward, our kids grew up together,  and he had my back. He was as excited as I was when permission arrived, and it was quick. That may not be fair, not everyone has a relationship with their Stake Prez. So if something is denied, I would be looking at the Stake Prez. He has to be the advocate, it is his stewardship that they rely on.