Why I Sincerley Believe Mormons are Going to Hell

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, savedwheat said:

I really don't think it is too much to ask for to accept Jesus created all things, that God was alone from everlasting, nothing beside Him, and thus, Mormons are going to Hell because they debase Jesus into some lesser being a false Christ. Why would you not want to receive atonement from Jesus who is with God and Jesus who is God?

I find far less worthy of worship in the God and Christ you describe.  In fact, I don't like the Gods you describe as we are reduced to little more than their pets and they are reduced to little more than bored deities who made us on a whim.
I consider God and Christ far more worthy of worship and emulation in Mormon theology for precisely the reasons you disapprove of Mormonism.

Quote

Why do you think Christianity was lost for 1800 years? The same teaching in the first century in the Bible is the same today.

No, the teachings are not the same.  The Bible is the same (mostly) but the Trinitarian beliefs were not part of the first century Church.
And every new creed, new interpretation, new doctrine, that was created after the deaths of the Apostles pushed the Church further and further away.

Christianity (the belief in Christ and the atonement) wasn't lost for 1800 years, but an understanding of doctrine and theology, and the authority God gives to man were most definitely lost the further from Christ it went.
 

[Thinking]

On 1/26/2016 at 10:33 PM, savedwheat said:

Before that happens there is the Tribulation 2023-2030.

I guess I'll have to inform my wife that we'll be canceling our retirement travel plans.

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

I guess I'll have to inform my wife that we'll be canceling our retirement travel plans.

Yeah, 2023 is my planned retirement year. Guess we're out of luck.

[Maidservant]

Please keep in mind that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints posits a free salvation to all human beings on earth.  The destiny of 99.999999% of Heavenly Father's children, regardless of belief, religion, and even behavior, will be a "kingdom of happiness".  This cannot be lost.  It is given freely due to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

So you posit a salvation that cannot be lost.  So do the LDS.

You posit a salvation that can be gained only after the confessional sacrament/work i.e. a specific set of words, which I also realize would involve a heart commitment (a faith).  The LDS posit a free salvation without any effort or token on the part of the child of God, the myriads of the earth. Only qualification is breathing.

You put most people in hell.  Not supported by scripture and following not a prophet (so what are you following?).

LDS puts all people in a kingdom of glory.  Supported by scripture as well as living revelation.

= = = = = = = =

You are comparing incorrectly.  I have showed you the salvation-salvation comparison.

In this thread you have been comparing salvation to sanctification-exaltation project.  It's not a fair comparison because you need to compare apples to apples.  In your belief system, is there a concept/reality of sanctification?  In that case, please compare your sanctification process to the LDS sanctification process.

The trouble is word use i.e. semantics.  LDS are much more loose with their term salvation, and covers a wide range of the powers of Jesus' atonement and grace.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

You posit a salvation that can be gained only after the confessional sacrament/work i.e. a specific set of words, which I also realize would involve a heart commitment (a faith).  The LDS posit a free salvation without any effort or token on the part of the child of God, the myriads of the earth. Only qualification is breathing.

 

I agree with everything you said...except this.

Mormonism absolutely require acceptance of Christ and the atonement in order to receive salvation (aka resurrection).  That is why the scripture says "EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess".  It is true that none shall be lost (remain in the grave) except for perdition, but everyone will be required to at least acknowledge Christ as Lord and his atonement.
That is why the 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven will be perdition and will not receive bodies or resurrection - because they refused to accept Christ and the plan of salvation.

It is true that all but perdition will receive a form of salvation, but they will all have no recourse but to say that Christ is Lord (EVERY knee).  It isn't without a requirement.

[Teancum]

Well I doubt there is a place called Hell at least the one the Evangelical brand of Christianity believes in.  I may end up there, if there is one,  as a semi apostate from the LDS Church as well as a skeptic of all revealed religious claims. But if there is such a place I believe Savedwheat and other EVs and dogmatic religious believer, including those of the LDS brand or whatever brand, will be there as well for simply being arrogant enough to insist their dogma is the true path to God.

[Calm]

14 hours ago, savedwheat said:

Why do you think Christianity was lost for 1800 years? The same teaching in the first century in the Bible is the same today.

On the off chance SW comes back...

Do you believe that certain ideas were lost that were then recovered beginning at the time of the Reformation?

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?84-The-History-of-the-Church

Edited January 27, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

  It is true that none shall be lost (remain in the grave) except for perdition,

Are you saying those who have been born into mortality and given bodies who are perdition will not be resurrected?  Please reference this if so.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Are you saying those who have been born into mortality and given bodies who are perdition will not be resurrected?  Please reference this if so.

I have no idea on that one.  I know it's been a hotly debated subject.  Since even a Telestial Resurrection is a resurrection of glory, and that requires a minimal acknowledgement of Christ I really couldn't say.  Those who refuse to bow the knee may receive resurrected body but I doubt it will have any glory attached, be "more pure" than our bodies here.

I only know what Christ said about who is lost and who is saved.

Edited January 27, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Johnnie Cake]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:41 AM, savedwheat said:

 

I need to tell you what is on my heart that I know Mormons are going to Hell because they think they always existed alongside God even though God said there is none beside Him. He alone is from everlasting, and that Jesus created all things; nothing exists that exists without Him having created it. Also many express salvation can be lost once saved which is salvation by self strength or works. This shows you did not give your life to the God who keeps and never lets go; now that's a God you can trust in. Since God the Father is God and Jesus is God and the Spirit is God the Godhead is One Being in 3 Persons, Co-Equal, Co-Inherent, One Substance, Distinct but Not Separate in the 3 Persons.

 

 

You're embarrassing us Savedwheat...

[Calm]

Quote

You're embarrassing us Savedwheat...

You should visit his website and see if he considers you one of the "us".  The requirement for being a Christian apparently includes these beliefs, though I may be wrong.  It is easier to find what makes a person a nonChristian on his site than a Christian unfortunately:

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?805-God-s-Plan-for-the-Church&p=2078#post2078

1:  Mankind is body, spirit, soul

2:  OSAS Arminian

3:  Partial Rapture

4:  Gap Restoration

5:  Scriptural Locality

[Maidservant]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with everything you said...except this.

Mormonism absolutely require acceptance of Christ and the atonement in order to receive salvation (aka resurrection).  That is why the scripture says "EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess".  It is true that none shall be lost (remain in the grave) except for perdition, but everyone will be required to at least acknowledge Christ as Lord and his atonement.
That is why the 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven will be perdition and will not receive bodies or resurrection - because they refused to accept Christ and the plan of salvation.

It is true that all but perdition will receive a form of salvation, but they will all have no recourse but to say that Christ is Lord (EVERY knee).  It isn't without a requirement.

I'll have to study this out a little bit more to see what the passage actually presents (and in connection with scriptures in total of course).  But offhand up to this point I have been taking this as simply a reality event in some future (either collectively or individually or both), not a requirement per se tied to salvation OR resurrection (I've always understood immortality to be a freebie, learned lots of Sunday School lessons to that effect anyway).  I am sure that people will know Christ at some point.  We already knew Christ before we came here.  It will become evident again when we are no longer living by faith, but our sight is restored.  Even evil spirits know Christ.

I ought to mention that I don't really speak of "going" to one of the kingdoms, but rather that we become, we create it, we live it i.e. that's how we can "turn the devils out of hell and make it a heaven".  We carry our hell and our heaven with us.  We can make our homes nodes of the celestial kingdom.  etc.  So as Alma says, we cannot be restored to something we never had.  So . . . really it's a bigger and more nuanced story.  In other words, even though a "bad" person here on earth is still eligible, or has not made herself ultimately ineligible, for what we term "telestial kingdom", nevertheless they will have to become telestial by eventually living that law.  How much struggle for them until they come to that?  Unknown.  Unique to that person and their agency. That struggle may be termed a hell, but not endless.

Even ourselves, we hope so much for celestial and are doing what we believe will lead to that or create that--we are so far away still from what God really knows and what he really is and what he really does. We cannot be that yet. We are still seeing through a glass darkly.  Who was it, was it Joseph, I don't know, who said we will be learning our salvation for a long time even after we are dead?

So no one is going to be handed anything.  We will need to overcome through the process of agency and time and atonement (=altogether is faith).  However, no one who is currently without law, or with some light and are violating that light, have made themselves ineligible for ultimate happiness as a destiny simply by reason of subscribing to different belief systems while here and/or doing a lot of wrong.  It's all still waiting for them--for us--as soon as we overcome.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

On 1/24/2016 at 1:17 AM, savedwheat said:

Where does the Bible say never to judge? How do you know who to fellowship with and is a member of the body of Christ if you don't judge who is a Christian?

Here are some scriptures about fellowship, my dear.

= = = = = =

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.  (Matthew 25)

= = = = = =

But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. (Luke 5)

[Jim Stiles]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

You should visit his website and see if he considers you one of the "us".  The requirement for being a Christian apparently includes these beliefs, though I may be wrong.  It is easier to find what makes a person a nonChristian on his site than a Christian unfortunately:

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?805-God-s-Plan-for-the-Church&p=2078#post2078

1:  Mankind is body, spirit, soul

2:  OSAS Arminian

3:  Partial Rapture

4:  Gap Restoration

5:  Scriptural Locality

1. Man is Body and Spirit.

2. No form of Arminianism (free will, free decision salvation) is supported by the bulk of scripture.

3. If there is a Millennium, then the Rapture of the Saints will be complete and take place after the Millennium.

4. This was a popular understanding of the first couple of chapters of Genesis back in the 19th century, but has fallen out of favor recently.

5. This is only possible when everyone in an given area who is a Christian agrees on the answer to those questions that have traditionally divided Christians.  βαπτισμα covers both sprinkling and immersion, but I do not expect every saved person to agree with me.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Jim Stiles

[savedwheat]

9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

1. Man is Body and Spirit.

2. No form of Arminianism (free will, free decision salvation) is supported by the bulk of scripture.

3. If there is a Millennium, then the Rapture of the Saints will be complete and take place after the Millennium.

4. This was a popular understanding of the first couple of chapters of Genesis back in the 19th century, but has fallen out of favor recently.

5. This is only possible when everyone in an given area who is a Christian agrees on the answer to those questions that have traditionally divided Christians.  βαπτισμα covers both sprinkling and immersion, but I do not expect every saved person to agree with me.

Man in spirit, soul and body Heb. 4.12 says. Confusing soul and spirit is man's fallen understanding.

God implores you to believe in Him, thus OSAS Arminian is true unless He is a sadist.

Ref. 2.26,27; 20.4-6 the  overcoming saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years. "Time of recompense".

Only gap restoration is true since it explains what happened to the dinosaurs, why there is still killing before Adam, and provides for a restoration in the 6 days that sum up the period of restoration since then.

Often a church locality is wrong, but it is responsibility unto itself to correct problems. There does not need to be full agreement on everything. There is also proper authority and submission because the Apostle who works in a region of church localities appoints the Elders of each church locality who in turn approves the man meeting places in that locality.

 

[savedwheat]

16 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Here are some scriptures about fellowship, my dear.

= = = = = =

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.  (Matthew 25)

= = = = = =

But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. (Luke 5)

A person can do all these things and still go to Hell because they reject who Jesus is for eternity. That's why Mormons are going to Hell. That's why the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

Edited January 28, 2016 by savedwheat

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

A person can do all these things and still go to Hell because they reject who Jesus is for eternity. That's why Mormons are going to Hell. That's why the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

Oh good, you are back. I missed you. Also, your God and his gospel are dumb.

Oh, and I love you and I want to have your babies.

[thesometimesaint]

Mormons don't reject Jesus. We reject your narrow, arbitrary, nonsensical, interpretation of what he said.

[savedwheat]

I think it is dumb to want to remain in your sin nature, eternally separated from God, since God can have no fellowship with sin. Not a lot of happiness in that.

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

A person can do all these things and still go to Hell because they reject who Jesus is for eternity. That's why Mormons are going to Hell. That's why the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

We are indeed saved by grace but can you address these scriptures that shows that our works are also considered in our salvation

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." 

Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." 

We are judged according to our works. Rev. 20:12-13

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

A person can do all these things and still go to Hell because they reject who Jesus is for eternity. That's why Mormons are going to Hell. That's why the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

Christ also says:

• Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

It's not enough to accept Christ as Lord.  You have to do the will of God.  You have to work.

(And I count at least 4-5 new posts today!  No more claiming you can't post.)

Edited January 28, 2016 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

8 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

I think it is dumb to want to remain in your sin nature, eternally separated from God, since God can have no fellowship with sin. Not a lot of happiness in that.

Who said anything about wanting to remain in sin?  Thank God for repentance. We have a well established method for repentance.

SEE https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng

Wickedness never was happiness.

SEE https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/41.3?lang=eng

[Teancum]

38 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

A person can do all these things and still go to Hell because they reject who Jesus is for eternity. That's why Mormons are going to Hell. That's why the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

 

 

Be default you add works by condemning Mormons to hell.  Clearly Mormonism proclaims Jesus as the Son of God and savior of the world and that all must accept Him to be saved.   Where you and Mormons differ are on theological and doctrinal points.   You send Mormons to Hell because you think they have the wrong Jesus and it is all on theology, interpretation of confusing scripture and so on. Thus you add works and really do not believe in saved by grace only.  Thus you are going to Hell by your own rules. See you there dude.

[The Nehor]

28 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

I think it is dumb to want to remain in your sin nature, eternally separated from God, since God can have no fellowship with sin. Not a lot of happiness in that.

I have never been in a sin nature. Is that some kind of weird way of coming on to me because of the babies comment. If so  

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Be default you add works by condemning Mormons to hell.  Clearly Mormonism proclaims Jesus as the Son of God and savior of the world and that all must accept Him to be saved.   Where you and Mormons differ are on theological and doctrinal points.   You send Mormons to Hell because you think they have the wrong Jesus and it is all on theology, interpretation of confusing scripture and so on. Thus you add works and really do not believe in saved by grace only.  Thus you are going to Hell by your own rules. See you there dude.

This could be your best post ever.