Teancum Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: This could be your best post ever. I am an equal opportunity skeptic. But self righteous EVs are the worst in my opinion. I love beating their nonsense up.
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, Teancum said: Be default you add works by condemning Mormons to hell. Clearly Mormonism proclaims Jesus as the Son of God and savior of the world and that all must accept Him to be saved. Where you and Mormons differ are on theological and doctrinal points. You send Mormons to Hell because you think they have the wrong Jesus and it is all on theology, interpretation of confusing scripture and so on. Thus you add works and really do not believe in saved by grace only. Thus you are going to Hell by your own rules. See you there dude. The Bible teaches many false Christs there will be so it stands to reason there are many people who are not saved. Therefore, one would need to accept the true Jesus to be saved. Who is the true Jesus in the Bible? He was alone from everlasting in the Godhead. He created all things. None beside the Godhead, no gods, nothing. Since these are not works but faith, Mormons are going to Hell because they have the wrong Jesus and the wrong faith. Mormons additionally are not saved because they believe based on their works they get to different heavens, whereas in Christianity no such works exist to get to heaven, only to reign in the millennial kingdom. Furthermore, Christians can't lose salvation because we gave our lives to the God who keeps, but Mormons teach they could be apostate Mormons and thus go to Hell.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, savedwheat said: The Bible teaches many false Christs there will be so it stands to reason there are many people who are not saved. Therefore, one would need to accept the true Jesus to be saved. Who is the true Jesus in the Bible? He was alone from everlasting in the Godhead. He created all things. None beside the Godhead, no gods, nothing. Since these are not works but faith, Mormons are going to Hell because they have the wrong Jesus and the wrong faith. Mormons additionally are not saved because they believe based on their works they get to different heavens, whereas in Christianity no such works exist to get to heaven, only to reign in the millennial kingdom. Furthermore, Christians can't lose salvation because we gave our lives to the God who keeps, but Mormons teach they could be apostate Mormons and thus go to Hell. You are probably the BEST EV ever at completely ignoring what another poster says and just repeating your catchphrases. Do you have any actual interest in discussing anything? Teancum is right - by requiring a specific act, belief or understanding to be saved, you are requiring a work. Declaring Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be saved is as much a work as Baptism or any other work. If salvation was really work free, then there would be NO requirement to receive it. 1
Ahab Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, savedwheat said: The Bible teaches many false Christs there will be so it stands to reason there are many people who are not saved. Therefore, one would need to accept the true Jesus to be saved. Who is the true Jesus in the Bible? He was alone from everlasting in the Godhead. He created all things. None beside the Godhead, no gods, nothing. Since these are not works but faith, Mormons are going to Hell because they have the wrong Jesus and the wrong faith. Mormons additionally are not saved because they believe based on their works they get to different heavens, whereas in Christianity no such works exist to get to heaven, only to reign in the millennial kingdom. Furthermore, Christians can't lose salvation because we gave our lives to the God who keeps, but Mormons teach they could be apostate Mormons and thus go to Hell. So basically what you are saying is that what people believe is what really matters. Believe the wrong thing and you are going to Hell. Believe the right thing and you are going to Heaven. I think we agree on that idea, mostly. But it's still a good idea to do good things wherever we go or end up.
Bobbieaware Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, Ahab said: So basically what you are saying is that what people believe is what really matters. Believe the wrong thing and you are going to Hell. Believe the right thing and you are going to Heaven. I think we agree on that idea, mostly. But it's still a good idea to do good things wherever we go or end up. For a Christian of any denomination to imagine all that really matters to God is what one believes, and not what one becomes as a consequence of following Christ, is proof positive he is ignoring the vast majority of the New Testament. 4
Teancum Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 45 minutes ago, savedwheat said: The Bible teaches many false Christs there will be so it stands to reason there are many people who are not saved. Therefore, one would need to accept the true Jesus to be saved. Who is the true Jesus in the Bible? He was alone from everlasting in the Godhead. He created all things. None beside the Godhead, no gods, nothing. Since these are not works but faith, Mormons are going to Hell because they have the wrong Jesus and the wrong faith. Mormons additionally are not saved because they believe based on their works they get to different heavens, whereas in Christianity no such works exist to get to heaven, only to reign in the millennial kingdom. Furthermore, Christians can't lose salvation because we gave our lives to the God who keeps, but Mormons teach they could be apostate Mormons and thus go to Hell. Thank you for proving my point. Theological correctness goes beyond simple faith in Jesus and His redeeming atonement. Mormons believe everything the Bible says about Jesus. That should be enough for the saved by faith alone mantra which you and other low church Evangelicals claim to believe but really don't. Thus by your own dogma you are going to Hell as well since you require more than just Faith in Jesus. Glories or crowns, degrees of heaven or rewards, does faith come first or faith follow works. I imagine God laughs at all this hair splitting nonsense. By they way it is not likely that Jesus ever taught that he was God. That was added later by his followers. And then embellished further in the creeds of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Your Protestants only came on the scene 500 years ago and the Mormons were only 300 years behind you. You should read some books on this topic. Most likely than not Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher that taught and believed he was a messiah which is not God and that the end of the world was going to be in his life time.
ttribe Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: You are probably the BEST EV ever at completely ignoring what another poster says and just repeating your catchphrases. Do you have any actual interest in discussing anything? Teancum is right - by requiring a specific act, belief or understanding to be saved, you are requiring a work. Declaring Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be saved is as much a work as Baptism or any other work. If salvation was really work free, then there would be NO requirement to receive it. Pretty much this -
Jim Stiles Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, savedwheat said: Man in spirit, soul and body Heb. 4.12 says. Confusing soul and spirit is man's fallen understanding. God implores you to believe in Him, thus OSAS Arminian is true unless He is a sadist. Ref. 2.26,27; 20.4-6 the overcoming saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years. "Time of recompense". Only gap restoration is true since it explains what happened to the dinosaurs, why there is still killing before Adam, and provides for a restoration in the 6 days that sum up the period of restoration since then. Often a church locality is wrong, but it is responsibility unto itself to correct problems. There does not need to be full agreement on everything. There is also proper authority and submission because the Apostle who works in a region of church localities appoints the Elders of each church locality who in turn approves the man meeting places in that locality. There are no more Apostles. Better hope that the Christian Reconstructionists never come into political power. Edited January 29, 2016 by Jim Stiles
The Nehor Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: So basically what you are saying is that what people believe is what really matters. Believe the wrong thing and you are going to Hell. Believe the right thing and you are going to Heaven. I think we agree on that idea, mostly. But it's still a good idea to do good things wherever we go or end up. I don't agree with that at all. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: There are no more Apostles. Better hope that the Christian Reconstructionists never come into political power. Well, in the traditional Christian community there are no more apostles. Because nobody there stands as a witness to the true Lord Jesus Christ, but to some supernatural figment of the imagination. In the LDS community we still have apostles who stand as witnesses for the real Jesus Christ as revealed from heaven. 1
Ahab Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: For a Christian of any denomination to imagine all that really matters to God is what one believes, and not what one becomes as a consequence of following Christ, is proof positive he is ignoring the vast majority of the New Testament. Belief is the foundation of any and all action, though, so it's best not to minimize the importance of believing and believing correctly. I didn't mean believing is all we should do.
Bobbieaware Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Ahab said: Belief is the foundation of any and all action, though, so it's best not to minimize the importance of believing and believing correctly. I didn't mean believing is all we should do. As the New Testament repeatedly testifies, correct belief and the conversion of the fallen nature to the divine nature are both essential and equally important. Christ not only justifies (forgives sin) but he also sanctifies, enabling sincere believers. through the Spirit, to become incrementally more and more righteous and holy). Edited January 29, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Ahab Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: As the New Testament repeatedly testifies, correct belief and the conversion of the fallen nature to the divine nature are both essential and equally important. Christ not only justifies (forgives sin) but he also sanctifies, enabling sincere believers. through the Spirit, to become incrementally more and more righteous and holy). Yes and conversion and correct belief are then inextricably connected when the mighty change is evident in us. There is no conversion without believing in him and what he tells us. So let's not minimize the importance of having the correct beliefs that are necessary for our conversion.
Bobbieaware Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yes and conversion and correct belief are then inextricably connected when the mighty change is evident in us. There is no conversion without believing in him and what he tells us. So let's not minimize the importance of having the correct beliefs that are necessary for our conversion. I wrote my response to let you know I'm not one who minimizes the importance of correct belief. Yet in your response it seems you missed my point. I thought that by saying it's my position belief and sanctification are equal in importance I would have made myself clear. Would you rather I say belief is more important than sanctification? And if so, why? Edited January 29, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Ahab Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: I wrote my response to let you know I'm not one who minimizes the importance of correct belief. Yet in your response it seems you missed my point. I thought that by saying it's my position belief and sanctification are equal in importance I would have made myself clear. Would you rather I say belief is more important than sanctification? And if so, why? Because without (correct) belief there is no sanctification. Because we must believe in him and what he tells us before he can sanctify us through the power of the Holy Spirit who he sends to sanctify those who believe in him and what he tells us. Because our belief in him is the foundation he builds on. Am I making this more clear to you now? Both may be considered equally important to achieve the desired finished product but without (correct) belief in him and what he tells us there is nothing else to build on in that individual.
thesometimesaint Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 In as much as men do good they shall in no wise loose their reward. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Because without (correct) belief there is no sanctification. Because we must believe in him and what he tells us before he can sanctify us through the power of the Holy Spirit who he sends to sanctify those who believe in him and what he tells us. Because our belief in him is the foundation he builds on. Am I making this more clear to you now? Both may be considered equally important to achieve the desired finished product but without (correct) belief in him and what he tells us there is nothing else to build on in that individual. So you agree they are equally important. So I guess there's no disagreement. That's good.
Ahab Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 And I believe anyone who believes they are doing good will also be rewarded for acting on that belief. Not that they will necessarily be exalted to the highest level of heaven, but oh well, they will still be rewarded.
Ahab Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: So you agree they are equally important. So I guess there's no disagreement. That's good. Yeah I don't think we disagree, either. I'm just saying one must come before the other, and without the first the second won't happen. We do our part and our Lord and the Spirit then do theit part. Or actually our Lord did his part and then we must do our part before the Lord and the Spirit do their part finish the work that will eventually lead to us becoming like them. Something like that.
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 23 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Well, in the traditional Christian community there are no more apostles. Because nobody there stands as a witness to the true Lord Jesus Christ, but to some supernatural figment of the imagination. In the LDS community we still have apostles who stand as witnesses for the real Jesus Christ as revealed from heaven. Is Thomas S. Monson an eyewitness, with his natural eyes, to the resurrected Christ? When did he see him? Did anyone else see him at the same time?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 36 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Is Thomas S. Monson an eyewitness, with his natural eyes, to the resurrected Christ? When did he see him? Did anyone else see him at the same time? Can't speak for Pres. Monson. But many of the other LDS Church Presidents have. Even if you don't believe it or think they're lying.
savedwheat Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 6:23 PM, Jim Stiles said: There are no more Apostles. Better hope that the Christian Reconstructionists never come into political power. Of course there are Apostles. Missionaries are Apostles. Paul said there were Apostles who never saw Jesus the "other Apostles". Eph. 4.11 says there are 4 kinds of main workers for the Church one of which is Apostles. Everything Mormons say is wrong. I just came across a Mormon who said Lev. 16 that the scapegoat is Satan. So Mormons believe Jesus is Satan in that case. Satan is a good guy is made a scapegoat? Wow! Judas was not a scapegoat, nor was Barabbas. If they were a scapegoat the Bible would have said so. The Book of Enoch and Mormons are wrong. The Book of Enoch was excluded from the 66 books of God's word, but the book of Enoch agrees with Mormonism. The scapegoat removes sin to the wilderness, from our presence. That's what Jesus did. Sin can return if you are not careful so it is important to bear your cross daily those of us who are saved not after all we can do, but we have forgiveness and eternal life now which can never be lost (John 17.3, 10.28).
Avatar4321 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 On 1/28/2016 at 4:18 PM, savedwheat said: I think it is dumb to want to remain in your sin nature, eternally separated from God, since God can have no fellowship with sin. Not a lot of happiness in that. Then exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized then you can receive the Holy Ghost. Nothing is keeping you in your sinful nature.
savedwheat Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 25 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Then exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins and be baptized then you can receive the Holy Ghost. Nothing is keeping you in your sinful nature. I was born-again 15 years ago and have eternal life and have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Why would I need to get save again?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: I was born-again 15 years ago and have eternal life and have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Why would I need to get save again? By their fruits ye shall know them...
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