Is King David Limited to the Telestial Kingdom?

[prisonchaplain]

Since King David had his general set up to be murdered, is he limited in is eternal destiny to the Telestial Kingdom?  I've heard this suggested, based on the LDS teaching that murderers can only receive grace sufficient for entry into the lowest heavenly kingdom.  I find the idea troubling. 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Since King David had his general set up to be murdered, is he limited in is eternal destiny to the Telestial Kingdom?  I've heard this suggested, based on the LDS teaching that murderers can only receive grace sufficient for entry into the lowest heavenly kingdom.  I find the idea troubling. 

D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

David received forgiveness for his sins but lost his exaltation.  He can achieve the Celestial Kingdom, but only as a ministering angel.
He has been redeemed from hell but lost his exaltation.

[filovirus]

It's all speculation about where he'll end up. Let's leave that between God and David.

Here is a good outline about the teachings. It can be found here: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Telestial_Kingdom

Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15). Telestial inhabitants as innumerable as the stars will come forth in the last resurrection and then be "servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come" (D&C 76:112). Although the least of the degrees of glory, yet the Telestial Kingdom "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 76:89). [See also Degrees of Glory.] CLYDE J. WILLIAMS

[prisonchaplain]

The discussion I had (with LDS at another forum) was several months ago. It may be that church leaders--rather than scripture--were used to suggest that David would be further limited to the Telestial Kingdom. In either case, it still strikes me that this great hero of the Old Testament--the greatest Jew who ever lived, according to some modern-day Jews (obviously, these do not recognize Jesus), could be forever barred from the kind of repentance and valiance that would garner him the highest glories. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I just find it bad that lying is linked with murder and adultery.

[longview]

9 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

- - - it still strikes me that this great hero of the Old Testament--the greatest Jew who ever lived, according to some modern-day Jews (obviously, these do not recognize Jesus), could be forever barred from the kind of repentance and valiance that would garner him the highest glories. 

I would think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were the original Jews.   And they are ALL greater than David.

[Glenn101]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

David received forgiveness for his sins but lost his exaltation.  He can achieve the Celestial Kingdom, but only as a ministering angel.
He has been redeemed from hell but lost his exaltation.

Isn't that pretty much of an oxymoron, i.e. that David received forgiveness but was redeemed from hell? Psalm 86:13 says that God "hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell" foretelling an event in the future, after David's death. I agree that David lost his exaltation, and the telestial kingdom will be the home to murderers, after their own time in hell, but I do not know if that is all there is to it. In other words, I do not know which Kingdom that King Davis will inherit.

 

 

[Glenn101]

21 minutes ago, longview said:

I would think that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were the original Jews.   And they are ALL greater than David.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Hebrews

[prisonchaplain]

Why were Isaac and Jacob--especially Jacob (who's name meant "heel") greater than David?

[VideoGameJunkie]

10 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Why were Isaac and Jacob--especially Jacob (who's name meant "heel") greater than David?

They didn't have anyone killed to steal their wife.

[halconero]

 

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I just find it bad that lying is linked with murder and adultery.

Lying is murdering the truth.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The discussion I had (with LDS at another forum) was several months ago. It may be that church leaders--rather than scripture--were used to suggest that David would be further limited to the Telestial Kingdom. In either case, it still strikes me that this great hero of the Old Testament--the greatest Jew who ever lived, according to some modern-day Jews (obviously, these do not recognize Jesus), could be forever barred from the kind of repentance and valiance that would garner him the highest glories. 

David stole another man's wife and killed her husband who was one of his most loyal followers to cover it up. Yeah, he did great things before that but adultery, murder, and betrayal to cover your own sins are some of the worst things you can do in life. I am not sure why David should get a pass.

His political career after that point was pretty much an unmitigated disaster after that point. On his deathbed he enjoined Solomon to seek vengeance on his enemies that he could not kill himself. Hardly the kind of deathbed thoughts I would expect from someone on the path to exaltation.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

David received forgiveness for his sins but lost his exaltation.  He can achieve the Celestial Kingdom, but only as a ministering angel.
He has been redeemed from hell but lost his exaltation.

I think one of three relevant concepts is being taught in this verse. One is the fall from exaltation for committing murder in the context of breaking the terms Nathan sealed upon him for the covenant of marriage (this verse), and the others are: his designation to the telestial kingdom for the extreme will, intent, lying and hypocrisy in carrying out his acts of murder and adultery (D&C 76:103); and for doing so against having received the greater light (D&C 82:3).

8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The discussion I had (with LDS at another forum) was several months ago. It may be that church leaders--rather than scripture--were used to suggest that David would be further limited to the Telestial Kingdom. In either case, it still strikes me that this great hero of the Old Testament--the greatest Jew who ever lived, according to some modern-day Jews (obviously, these do not recognize Jesus), could be forever barred from the kind of repentance and valiance that would garner him the highest glories. 

Yes, it is a terrible tragedy, but a very real one for anyone.

[MDalby]

 

 

 5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost? 
 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
(Alma 39:6)

Although David was a King he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.
(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 253)

There is no exaltation in the kingdom of God without the fulness of the priesthood…Every man who is faithful and will receive these [temple] ordinances and blessings obtains a fulness of the priesthood, and the Lord has said that “he makes then equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
(Joseph F. Smith, 1956, Doctrines of Salvation 3:132)

Even David must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out.  For Peter, speaking of him says, "David hath not yet ascended into heaven, for his sepulechre is with us to this day."  His remains were then in the tomb.  Nw, we read that many bodies of the Saints arose at Christ's resurrection, probably all the Saints, but it seems that David did not.  Why?  Because he had been a murderer.  If the ministers of religion had a proper understanding of the doctrine of eternal judgment, they would not be found attending the man who forfeited his life to the injured laws of his country, by shedding innocent blood; for such characters cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing.  The prayers of all the ministers in the world can never close the gates of hell against a murderer.
(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 360)
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 189)

Further, murderers place themselves in a position where it is impossible to ask forgiveness of the one sinned against or to make restitution—at least in this life. So grievous is the act that the Prophet Joseph Smith said murderers “cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing.
(Ensign, August 1994, 27)

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I just find it bad that lying is linked with murder and adultery.

Why is that? Liars put my Dad in Jail for over 5 years.

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Since King David had his general set up to be murdered, is he limited in is eternal destiny to the Telestial Kingdom?  I've heard this suggested, based on the LDS teaching that murderers can only receive grace sufficient for entry into the lowest heavenly kingdom.  I find the idea troubling. 

 

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 132:39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

I understand the revelation about David to mean that 1) he fell from the exaltation he would have otherwise received had he not fallen which would have included ALL of his wives and children, 2) he has received his portion (? portion of his exaltation ? has received only some of what he was destined to get before his fall ? his portion of hell ?), 3) he shall not receive what he lost later (with Bathsheba and his children through her being some of what he lost), 4) those (them) he had been lost had been given to another (with Bathsheba no longer being his wife but instead being the wife of another man.

The revelation doesn't necessarily mean David won't ever be able to receive Celestial glory, but I'm pretty certain it does mean he has forever lost Bathsheba as one of his wives.

[halconero]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Why is that? Liars put my Dad in Jail for over 5 years.

Yup. Lying (about me, not by me) almost got me excommunicated and destroyed my social life with the church at one point.

[longview]

14 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Hebrews

Yes.  However, Jews is also a generic term that can be applied to people of the land after the Babylonian Captivity.  It seems Lehi and Nephi thought of themselves as being Jews, although descendants of Manasseh.   Mulek was definitely of the tribe of Judah.

[prisonchaplain]

I get that David did some bad things. Yet, the Messiah came from his line--the great city, Jerusalem, is the City of David--and--he is great at repentance. Jews esteem him highly.  Consider:  http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48936837.html

Given all that, it's hard for me to reconcile his "limited atonement."  Personally, I've enjoyed teaching that David, the liar--adulterer--murder--was counted a man after God's heart by the end of his life.  Could it be that the doctrine of pre-mortal existence (that David had a say in how his life would go beforehand) weighs against him in LDS thinking/teaching?

[Ahab]

What stands out for me in the story of David is that he should not have tried to take Bathsheba as his own wife and in the end our Lord did not let him have her, and I think probably not the children that he had through her either.  

Posterity is one of the greatest gifts associated with exaltation, along with having a spouse or spouses. 

[halconero]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What stands out for me in the story of David is that he should not have tried to take Bathsheba as his own wife and in the end our Lord did not let him have her, and I think probably not the children that he had through her either.  

Posterity is one of the greatest gifts associated with exaltation, along with having a spouse or spouses. 

Do you mean have her in eternity? If so, agree.

If you're referring to mortality, then he did keep her as his wife, sired Solomon upon her, through whom we have Jesus Christ.

[Jesusfollower]

In the Church's lesson manual on this subject Elder Bruce R McConkie states that all David will inherit is the Telestial Kingdom:

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/2-samuel-1-12-the-fall-of-king-david?lang=eng

[JAHS]

Here are a few quotes by some other general authorities on the subject:

President Marion G. Romney (April 1979)
"David, on the other hand, though highly favored of the Lord (he was, in fact, referred to as a man after God's own heart), yielded to temptation. His unchastity led to murder, and as a consequence, he lost his families and his exaltation (see D&C 132:39)."

President Milton R. Hunter (April 1971)
"Having an understanding of the plan of salvation and a thorough knowledge of the seriousness of the gross sins of adultery and murder which he had committed, King David in anguish cried out unto the Lord: "... thou wilt not leave my soul in hell." (Ps. 16:10.)

Spencer W. Kimball(October 1980)
"Perhaps one reason murder is unforgivable is that having taken a life, the murderer cannot restore it. Restitution in full is not possible. Also, having robbed one of virtue, it is impossible to give it back."

Joseph F. Smith(Gospel Doctrine p. 434)
"But even David, though guilty of adultery and murder of Uriah, obtained the promise that his soul should not be left in hell, which means, as I understand it, that even he shall escape the second death."

The way I see it, a person who sheds innocent blood "shall not have forgiveness in this world , nor in the world to come"(D&C 42:18). The refusal of forgiveness refered to here means that the murderer can not repent and receive forgiveness through the atonement of Christ. They can not be forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. They will go to hell to be punnished for it. However, a person may eventually be able to receive another type of forgiveness which requires paying the price by suffering in hell for the murder. Then they may be able to be rescued from hell, as in the case of David, and still obtain some degree of glory(but not exaltation) after the final judgement, perhaps depending on how good they were during the rest of their life.

[Prof]

Something that was brought up yesterday in class was the story of Saul. Saul persecuted early Christians. He may not have killed any directly, but his actions probably lead to the deaths of many. Yet he was made an apostle. What kingdom will he inherit?