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Could this affect LDS schools?


Tacenda

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People use the word persecution a bit too freely. Marginalized is about as strong of a word as I would use.

Lumping in an Educational Survey and description of a school's moral standards in with the destruction of life and property of the early Saints or the present Assyrian Christians is disingenuous.

Edited by halconero
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24 minutes ago, Thinking said:

If BYU was 100% private with no federal money finding its way into the school, this would not be an issue. However, federal money makes its way into the BYU coffers in the form of pell grants and students loans.

This is a very good point as the article did specify that the Education Department would be looking at schools that accept federal money.  In that framing, I do not see a problem.  Any organization that accepts tax payer money is bound to maintain certain federal regulations.  BYU is a fully private school, so this would be a non-issue.  

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13 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This is a very good point as the article did specify that the Education Department would be looking at schools that accept federal money.  In that framing, I do not see a problem.  Any organization that accepts tax payer money is bound to maintain certain federal regulations.  BYU is a fully private school, so this would be a non-issue.  

BYU is not fully private because its students accept federal money.

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I don't see why it is a problem to disclose any colleges requests for exemptions from Title IX enforcement.    Each institution should be comfortable with a discussion about their exemptions.   Nothing here denies the waivers: the law requiers they be given for policies that would otherwise interfere with the faith institutions policies.  
It appears that what it will do is prompt instittutions to be more specific in what they aren't going to do that the  US government is going to require   others to do.

As for LDS schools, LGB students at least will be in same sex dorms/apartments  and therefore  would generally qualify under BYU policies.  I've been wondering though about how BYU will come out on that as they think through whether  same sex attracted students ought to have the option of living with people they are not attracted to (and whether those who are straight should be allowed to live only with those who arent lusting after them).

I would not require straight students to share a bedroom or bath with someone who they know to be SSA, but i would require they accept having such roommates who do not share bedroom/bath.  That really horrible story out of byu last year where roomies beat up a ssa who was living gospel standards left me thinking that college policies should in no way condone the bigotry and fear shown most often by males IME, like gay was going to rub off.  If someone refuses to live with someone ssa despite their commitment to living the commandments, that person should bear all the costs of their reactions.  they are the ones who should leave the apartment and have to find a new place to live.

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4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

In terms of school loans, it gets paid back by the student.  So that really does not apply. 

The federal government pays the interest on the student loan until the student graduates, and pell grants are given to the students.

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3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

BYU does not discriminate against people but it discriminates against behavior.  BYU can ban homosexual behavior just as they can ban students from getting drunk. 

This is a distinction without a difference. 

For example, even a celibate gay couple that are married will be denied entrance to BYU based on their marital status to someone of the same gender--an act which may have occurred several years in the past, but their "status" (and not any ongoing behavior, other than the status of "being" married) would prohibit them entrance.

That is discrimination based on a status, and not a behavior.

BYU is ENTIRELY free to ban same-sex couples (married or otherwise, celibate or not), but it's  a distinction without a difference to claim BYU doesn't discriminate against people but it discriminates against behavior.

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I don't see a problem with disclosing these types of Title IX exemptions.  Students and sponsors should be able to know what schools are doing when deciding whether or not to support such schools.  And clearly, the vast majority of BYU's wealthy LDS sponsors won't care that BYU has received such exemptions--in fact, they probably support BYU's standards of exclusion.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the president of Multnomah University, in the article:

The Department of Education announced they would publish copies of schools' exemption request letters on the department's website "sometime in the coming months."

"I think that's a good thing," said Craig Williford, president of Multnomah University. "We support the transparency 100 percent."

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On the surface I don't really care if the DE shares these letters with the public.  However, these types of efforts can have broad ranging impacts when carried to their extreme.  It can easily become a form of labeling - this entity meets this standard and that entity does not.  This moves to this individual meets this standard and that person does not.  

Of course, this sounds good when "you" are picking the standard that must be met, but it quickly changes when you become the entity that does not meet the new "standard".  It is a process that moves further and further down the road to labeling all things.  One is no longer a human, but a race, a gender preference, a creed, a religion, a belief standard, etc.  The government sets itself up, and its elitist administrators, to judge all people by a label they create that meets their chosen standards.  

You get a scarlet letter, but you pass.  You must either change or you become Persona Non Grata.  

I appreciate transparency, but I detest this type of effort because social organizations seldom act well when "you" are setting the standard and judging everyone else.  When that pendulum swings back the other way it can get really ugly really quickly. 

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2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

I don't see a problem with disclosing these types of Title IX exemptions.  Students and sponsors should be able to know what schools are doing when deciding whether or not to support such schools.  And clearly, the vast majority of BYU's wealthy LDS sponsors won't care that BYU has received such exemptions--in fact, they probably support BYU's standards of exclusion.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the president of Multnomah University, in the article:

 

 

Transparency is good.  If you have nothing to hide, then there are no worries.  It is when organizations start keeping things "private" that the red flags should start to come up.

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10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Transparency is good.  If you have nothing to hide, then there are no worries.  It is when organizations start keeping things "private" that the red flags should start to come up.

Transparency is only as good as the people judging the transparent item in question. At the risk of going all Godwin transparency in Nazi Germany would have meant announcing if you were hiding people destined for the camps. The idea that if you have something to hide there is something wrong with you is based on the erroneous notion that society is just.

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20 hours ago, Thinking said:

BYU is not fully private because its students accept federal money.

I don't understand this argument so maybe you could help explain it.

When I received grants and student loans, a portion went to the school but a portion went to my family for whatever I wanted to spend it on. 

If receiving federal aid means an institution must be transparent and can't be seen as a private entity, then why is that not true for the person who receives federal aid as well?

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12 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Transparency is good.  If you have nothing to hide, then there are no worries.  It is when organizations start keeping things "private" that the red flags should start to come up.

when the government wants to keep things private red flags should start to come up. When talking about people and associations, however, we have rights to privacy. Or do think we should publish everyone's medical records as well as their bank statements?

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

When I received grants and student loans, a portion went to the school

This.

As you know from the application process, you can't qualify for the loan or grant unless you are enrolled at a qualifying institution. When I went to college the pell grant check came to me and then I used it to pay tuition and other things, but the check to the school came from my checking account. Now the grant money goes directly to the school and any leftover amount is released to the student.

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3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

This.

As you know from the application process, you can't qualify for the loan or grant unless you are enrolled at a qualifying institution. When I went to college the pell grant check came to me and then I used it to pay tuition and other things, but the check to the school came from my checking account. Now the grant money goes directly to the school and any leftover amount is released to the student.

But the student still gets some (depending on how much they requested) and they are allowed to spend it without any oversight or review. 

I'm just wondering why that is fine for students but not fine for universities. The federal government is funding both of them, but they are not treated the same. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But the student still gets some (depending on how much they requested) and they are allowed to spend it without any oversight or review. 

I'm just wondering why that is fine for students but not fine for universities. The federal government is funding both of them, but they are not treated the same. 

When you start demanding transparency for one then a standard is set for transparency for all.  That is when it gets really interesting.  It is so often good for others, but seldom when the same standard is applied to all.

It also sets up a standard to qualify everyone to meet a new standard - whoever is setting the new standard.  This is not freedom and it does not lead to more liberty.  It leads to a very restrictive, inhibited society.

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Quote

 

Law school accreditors are investigating Brigham Young University amid allegations that the LDS Church-owned institution's policies violate nondiscrimination standards by expelling students who live in same-sex relationships or leave the Mormon faith. 

The American Bar Association (ABA) is reviewing the formal complaint from a group of BYU alumni pushing for LDS students who lose or change their faith to be allowed to finish their degree, said FreeBYU spokesman Brad Levin. 

"There's increasing support and awareness," Levin said, pointing to a petition with more than 2,700 signatures, "even among faithful Mormons." 

FreeBYU this summer added gay and transgender rights to their cause after the U.S. Supreme Court allowed same-sex marriage nationwide. BYU also violates ABA nondiscrimination guidelines, Levin said, by forcing some LGBT members to hide their sexual orientation and gender identity or risk expulsion....

Levin's group is appealing a university-wide decision from a different accrediting group, which reviewed a similar complaint on the religious-freedom issue but found no violation on the university's part. The Northwestern Commission on Colleges and Universities is one of many accrediting bodies partly responsible for determining American colleges' standing with the federal government.

Since they couldn't get them on academic freedom (leaving the faith), it makes sense to go with LGBT as that has had more success.

The petition, if I understand it correctly, is online and names are not verified.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3459506-155/national-bar-group-looking-into-discrimination

Edited by Calm
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