VideoGameJunkie Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 That many pages just don't get up and walk away on their own. Did someone steal them, and are they still in someone's possession somewhere? Were they burned? How does a man "lose" that many pages. Someone must have stolen them and done something with them.
JAHS Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) Martin Harris's goat ate them. Actually there were rumors that his wife got angry with him for not being allowed to see the plates and she burned them. Edited January 14, 2016 by JAHS 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Actually, I have them. PM me, and I'll send you the scans. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 I'm curious if they're still in existence somewhere.
Popular Post Sleeper Cell Posted January 14, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 14, 2016 38 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: That many pages just don't get up and walk away on their own. How does a man "lose" that many pages. You’ve obviously never seen my desk. 6
JAHS Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm curious if they're still in existence somewhere. I'd say it's about 99% certain they no longer exist.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, JAHS said: I'd say it's about 99% certain they no longer exist. Well that sucks. I wonder if anything important was in them that we need today.
why me Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 This is an interesting topic. First, they seem to be have stolen to prove that the book of mormon is false. However, they never resurfaced after the theft which leaves open the question, why haven't they? If joseph wrote the book of mormon or if sidney did, these pages would have been very beneficial in proving such a case. So, why were they surpressed by the theives? And if they were surpressed, would this prove that the pages were legit? Certainly, harris' wife would have brought them forward, if she were the thief. 2
JAHS Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 13 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well that sucks. I wonder if anything important was in them that we need today. Apparently most of what was needed was repeated on the small plates of Nephi. Mormon said about these plates: But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren. And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will. (Words of Mormon 1: 6-7) What was to come was the loss of the 116 pages.
strappinglad Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 The 116 pages were likely more of a secular history like some of Alma.My curiosity is what did Joseph and Martin learn about the early years of the Nephite life in the New World that could have added to our ability to discover the actual landing place and area of the initial colony. I also suspect they were burned, probably in a fit of pique.
why me Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, strappinglad said: The 116 pages were likely more of a secular history like some of Alma.My curiosity is what did Joseph and Martin learn about the early years of the Nephite life in the New World that could have added to our ability to discover the actual landing place and area of the initial colony. I also suspect they were burned, probably in a fit of pique. Or why didn't they ever give a summary what was on the pages. I would have asked joseph such a question if I ever would have met him at that time and I would have asked him for a summary. . Edited January 14, 2016 by why me
The Nehor Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Joseph Smith did say that the record said that at least two of the sons of Ishmael married daughters of Lehi. He also taught that Ishmael was of the tribe of Ephraim which comingled the lines of the sons of Joseph. That is about all I know from it. I imagine that Lehi probably said a lot more about his early visions and the political situation in Jerusalem, maybe his relationship with Jeremiah and other prophets.....fun stuff but probably less useful then the book written for our day. 2
Stargazer Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Actually, I have them. PM me, and I'll send you the scans. Darn, you beat me to it. That was going to be MY line! 1
theplains Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 19 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: That many pages just don't get up and walk away on their own. Did someone steal them, and are they still in someone's possession somewhere? Were they burned? How does a man "lose" that many pages. Someone must have stolen them and done something with them. You can find the lost 116-page translation on the Internet. But I think the LDS Church rejects it. Jim
Walden Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 One of the theories is that Lucy Harris, Martin's wife, was skeptical of Joseph Smith's prophetic ability, and as a test of his translation powers, she stole the 116 pages (and later destroyed them) and argued that if Smith was a prophet, he could surely reproduce/re-translate the 116 pages. Smith then received revelation that he would not be allowed to re-translate the pages, which critics consider rather convenient, as it avoided any conflict should Smith's second translation differ from the first.
Russell C McGregor Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, theplains said: You can find the lost 116-page translation on the Internet. But I think the LDS Church rejects it. Jim You think right. And reading the purported translation (part of Christopher Nemelka's oeuvre) explains why. 1
omni Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 21 hours ago, JAHS said: Martin Harris's goat ate them. Actually there were rumors that his wife got angry with him for not being allowed to see the plates and she burned them. This is likely correct, but makes one wonder why in the world JS just didn't retranslate the original 116 pages. As we learn from the D&C, the purpose of the alternate translation was to prevent evil men from conspiring against JS by altering portions of the manuscript. But how would they have accomplished this if the manuscript was destroyed? Of course Joseph would have had no way of really knowing if the manuscript had actually been destroyed, but one would think God would have. 1
Calm Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 Perhaps they weren't destroyed until it became obvious Joseph wouldn't go about retranslating them.
Whiskeypete Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 My personal theory: I think that Joseph was learning his translation process and that learning process took time. I doubt that if he had retranslated the 116 pages that he would have produced the same translation the 2nd time around, because he would have been better at translating at that point. Not because he wasn't a prophet, and not because he was making it up ask he went along. Also, I've never understood the idea that someone could have altered the 116 page manuscript to make him look bad. It's not like they had photoshop available. I don't know how you would alter pen and ink on paper to make it read different than what it said before. So I think the Lord trained Joseph with the 116 pages, which gave him the ability to dictate the book that he was intended to produce.
strappinglad Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 Look at all the fuss caused by the Spaulding writings over the years and it is minor league compared to what would result from a near duplicate even if the handwriting was off. One wouldn't even need 116 pages, just a few would raise doubts.
3DOP Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 After all these years, you guys always can bring up something of which I have never heard. We are speaking of manuscript, right? Not lost "pages" of Mormon Dialogue and Discussion? Please, a clue for the guy looking in...
halconero Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 So, there are four principle authors/reactors within the Book of Mormon: - Nephi (1 Nephi, 2 Nephi) - Jacob (Parts of Nephi, and Jacob) - Mormon (Words of Mormon, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, 3rd Nephi, 4th Nephi, Mormon) - Moroni (Part of Mormon, Ether, Moroni) There are some minor guys in Enos and Omni, but those are the 4 big ones. The Nephi/Jacob narrative was largely a spiritual/priestly account of the Nephites until the reign of the Mosiahs/Benjamin, when the scriptures were placed in the hands of the Nephite Kings. The Kings until that time kept their own records which largely dealt with a secular history of the Nephites. Joseph Smith had translated 116 pages of manuscript which mostly dealt with the Kingly record from the time of Lehi till the Mosiahs...or possibly a "Book of Lehi," written by Nephi's father. Possibly both. Martin Harris, the financier and part-time scribe for Joseph, persisted in asking Joseph to lend him the manuscript to show to his wife, who had her doubts about he work. Even though God forbade it, Martin persisted and eventually Joseph relented. Martin subsequently lost the papers, which were likely stolen. God severely rebuked both of them, and forbade Joseph from retranslating the work due to the malintentions of those who stole the manuscript and their ability to potentially publish an altered account. God had inspired Nephi to keep a separate account of his journeys and revelations for a "wise purpose," and which largely covered the same period as the lost papers, though with a more particular emphasis on spiritual matters. We still do not have the lost 116 pages. Coupled with the fact that 2/3 of the Book of Mormon was left sealed and untranslated we likely have only 1/4 of what was recorded in the original work. 2
Avatar4321 Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 They may turn up yet. Unfortunately who knows whether it was altered or not. As for changing the text my theory would be the evil men would simply copy and change using the same hand writing. The question why hasn't it resurfaced is interesting.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 15, 2016 Author Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: They may turn up yet. Unfortunately who knows whether it was altered or not. As for changing the text my theory would be the evil men would simply copy and change using the same hand writing. The question why hasn't it resurfaced is interesting. Maybe it wasn't important enough to resurface.
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