What happened to the lost 116 pages?

[Maidservant]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

After all these years, you guys always can bring up something of which I have never heard. We are speaking of manuscript, right? Not lost "pages" of Mormon Dialogue and Discussion? Please, a clue for the guy looking in...

Manuscript, Lost 116 Pages

[Cold Steel]

On 1/14/2016 at 11:17 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

That many pages just don't get up and walk away on their own. Did someone steal them, and are they still in someone's possession somewhere? Were they burned? How does a man "lose" that many pages. Someone must have stolen them and done something with them.

Yes someone stole them, and the person with the motive and the means...envelope, please. 

And the answer is....LUCY HARRIS!  [Applause]

Over here, Lucy, thanks for joining us. So...umm...I guess people are wondering, why'd you do it?

Well, C.S., I did it because I wanted Marty to realize just what a huckster Joe Smith is. 

Ah-hah, and just how would stealing the manuscript do that?

Well, we hoped...er...I hoped...that if Joe...uh, Mister Smith...were to, uh, "translate" it again, we could show that the two texts didn't match. 

But what made you think they wouldn't?

Oh, really, you sound just like Marty!

Well, I have to ask this because when Joe...uh, Mister Smith translated the record, he didn't have any kind of a text with him...I think he dictated it while looking into a dark hat with a seer stone in it. And when he dictates, he speaks clearly and without hesitation, never having any part of it read back to him. I'm just speculating here, but if Mister Smith was making it all up, he'd have to memorize it. And if he memorized it there would have to be some sort of an original stashed away somewhere, don't you think?

So you think all he'd have to do is just memorize it a second time and spout it of again?

Ummm...uh...yeah. And if he's on the level, well, it wouldn't be impossible for him to reproduce it. Either way, he could produce a similar, or exact, text, right?

Oh, I suppose...but let's see him do it! Then we'll do the comparison. My friend Sandy Tanner doesn't think he'll be able to do it. We copied parts of it, though, and we'll just see if he's able to exactly match word-for-word. I just want Marty out of the equation...he's so gullible. I told him that Joe...er...Mister Smith was just trying to trick him. I told him unless he saw the plates for himself...and that angel fella...not to believe a word of it!

Uh...actually, I heard that he and two others did see....

Hey, don't I get a gold statue or something? 

No, gold doesn't grow on trees, y'know. But I will make sure you get a copy of the entire translation...and your friend Sandy, too. 

Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen...the woman who stole the book of Lehi, then lost it, but copied enough to put Mister Joseph Smith, Junior to the test. Stay tuned!

 

 

[why me]

The bigger question is: when did Joseph begin to relax over the lost pages? For after all, if I were him, and I were a fraudster, I would be worried throughout my life that these pages may come forward. What explanation could I give? However, once Joseph no longer had to worry about these pages and learned of being forgiven, he just moved on with the translation.

However, whoever stole them probably eventually knew that the pages were useless for blackmail or for proving a fraud case. And most likely, since the person who stole them wished the destruction of mormonism and the downfall of JS, knew that the pages would be valuable for joseph and for the lds church, so they destroyed them.

This is my take on it.

[Stargazer]

For the sake of argument, let's take it all at face value, that

• Joseph reluctantly let Martin Harris show off the manuscript pages, that
• Martin let them out of his hands, and
• those into whose hands the pages fell had the idea to modify the translation so that it would not correspond to a re-translation.

Those into whose hands it fell probably believed that Joseph couldn't produce the same document over again in any case -- in other words, he made it up from whole cloth to start with and there was no way he could re-do it and make it look like the original.  So, if he tried the re-translation it would not look like the original, and then they could come forward and reveal the lie.  And, if he tried the re-translation and it DID look like the original, then they could change the original, making it different, then they could come forward and create the lie.  When Joseph made it clear that he wasn't reproducing it, the pages were suddenly of no further value to them.

What happened to the pages then?  What would you have done if you were one of those who had the pages?  Personally, I think that they laid the pages aside in someone's attic on the off-chance that Joseph or somebody would eventually get around to doing it anyway.  And that is where I think those pages are today.  In someone's papers, and they don't know what they have.  It's possible that the pages may eventually have fallen afoul of spring cleaning done by a descendant of someone who had the pages at one time.  But perhaps they are still lying today in someone's pile of old papers.

[RevTestament]

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 10:51 PM, The Nehor said:

Joseph Smith did say that the record said that at least two of the sons of Ishmael married daughters of Lehi. He also taught that Ishmael was of the tribe of Ephraim which comingled the lines of the sons of Joseph. That is about all I know from it. I imagine that Lehi probably said a lot more about his early visions and the political situation in Jerusalem, maybe his relationship with Jeremiah and other prophets.....fun stuff but probably less useful then the book written for our day.

I want to thank you for that.... I just asked my ward about that very thing this last Sunday, because I believe the BoM strongly suggests Ishmael had some sons which married daughters of Lehi.

Could you kindly provide a source for this from Joseph?

[canard78]

5 hours ago, Whiskeypete said:

My personal theory:

I think that Joseph was learning his translation process and that learning process took time. I doubt that if he had retranslated the 116 pages that he would have produced the same translation the 2nd time around, because he would have been better at translating at that point. Not because he wasn't a prophet, and not because he was making it up ask he went along.

Also, I've never understood the idea that someone could have altered the 116 page manuscript to make him look bad. It's not like they had photoshop available. I don't know how you would alter pen and ink on paper to make it read different than what it said before.

So I think the Lord trained Joseph with the 116 pages, which gave him the ability to dictate the book that he was intended to produce.

Your middle paragraph is a very good point. I remember a seminary video showing the sneaky perpetrators changing letters, like "I" into "t" - but how many times would it make sense to change "little" to "tittle"?

Apparently new research by Skousen and others "proves" that the Book of Mormon was translated sometime around the 1500s and that Joseph was just dictating the words of their translation. I wonder if Skousen believes the 116 pages to have been translated in the same way. If so, dictating them again should have been possible. 

All a moot point really as Skousen hasn't proven his case yet. 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Whiskeypete said:

My personal theory:

I think that Joseph was learning his translation process and that learning process took time. I doubt that if he had retranslated the 116 pages that he would have produced the same translation the 2nd time around, because he would have been better at translating at that point. Not because he wasn't a prophet, and not because he was making it up ask he went along.

Also, I've never understood the idea that someone could have altered the 116 page manuscript to make him look bad. It's not like they had photoshop available. I don't know how you would alter pen and ink on paper to make it read different than what it said before.

So I think the Lord trained Joseph with the 116 pages, which gave him the ability to dictate the book that he was intended to produce.

They wouldn't have altered the ink on the existing paper, they would have copied the text, including alterations, onto new paper.  They would have endeavored to keep the handwriting similar, but that's all they needed to do.  The science of questioned document examination didn't exist until much later.  Without a safety copy, there would have been no way to preserve the integrity of the original text.  At best there would have been a question of whether the modified text was really the unaltered source text.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

Your middle paragraph is a very good point. I remember a seminary video showing the sneaky perpetrators changing letters, like "I" into "t" - but how many times would it make sense to change "little" to "tittle"?

Apparently new research by Skousen and others "proves" that the Book of Mormon was translated sometime around the 1500s and that Joseph was just dictating the words of their translation. I wonder if Skousen believes the 116 pages to have been translated in the same way. If so, dictating them again should have been possible. 

All a moot point really as Skousen hasn't proven his case yet. 

Skousen did what now?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I want to thank you for that.... I just asked my ward about that very thing this last Sunday, because I believe the BoM strongly suggests Ishmael had some sons which married daughters of Lehi.

Could you kindly provide a source for this from Joseph?

"The Prophet Joseph informed us that the record of Lehi, was contained on the 116 pages that were first translated and subsequently stolen, and of which an abridgment is given us in the first book of Nephi, which is the record of Nephi individually, he himself being of the lineage of Manasseh; but that Ishmael was of the lineage of Ephraim, and that his sons married into Lehi's family, and Lehi's sons married Ishmael's daughters"

-Erastus Snow from the Journal of Discourses 23:184

[omni]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Perhaps they weren't destroyed until it became obvious Joseph wouldn't go about retranslating them.

If you believe the rumors that Martin's wife burned them, this supposedly happened soon after she stole them.  If you don't believe they were immediately destroyed then why didn't the conspirators make the alterations as the D&C claims was their intention?  They could have simply changed a few names of the characters or locations and claimed Joseph was a fraud.

[nosmelone]

There are lots of hints in the Book of Mormon at what may have been on the 116 lost pages.  Royal Skousen speculated that the first three chapters in the Book of Mosiah were contained in it because it is the only book in the BOM that starts out not talking about its author (in this case Mosiah).  If you recall it starts with King Benjamin.  It also is the only Book that doesn't contain a heading and starts already "in the middle of things".  It is assumed that the first three chapters would have started with Benjamins father King Mosiah I.  They would have detailed his fleeing of the Land of Nephi and ending up in Zarahemla.  There are some interesting stories that were told by Joseph Smith Sr. in regards to his telling of the BOM that don't jive with what we have but they do jive with what we have if we had these first three chapters.  I won't go into to much detail but its out their on the internet and I know that Don Bradley is in the middle of writing a book on the subject so I won't give away too much on that but there are other hints as well.

[cinepro]

Sorry, but the only rational explanation is that Lucy destroyed them (probably burned them).

The theory that they were stolen with the plan to have Joseph re-translate and then produce altered pages showing they didn't match makes no sense.  No rational person would create a plan like this, and it makes even less sense for Lucy Harris to be involved.  I've posted this before, but for those who are new or forgetful, here's why:

I'm assuming Lucy Harris's main concern was to stop Martin from giving his money to Joseph. The plan (as revealed to Joseph) wouldn't have accomplished that, because it depended on Joseph restarting the translation and publishing the book (which wasn't going to happen without Martin's money).

Keep in mind, that 116 pages into the project, you have two options if you are worried about the money:

1. Stop immediately and book your losses.

or

2. Finish the project and hope to make your money back with the book being a success and selling well.

The D&C 10 plan is unique in that it does neither of those. If carried out, it would increase the expenditures on the project while at the same time trying to reduce the possibilities of recovering the investment through book sales!

So I do not think there was ever a plot to discredit the Prophet by changing the pages. Such a plot would be a terrible, illogical and borderline comical attempt at subterfuge.

A more likely scenario would be Lucy trying to stop the project cold by destroying the pages. A lone, desperate woman who thinks they'll get discouraged and stop if their progress is destroyed (perhaps assuming that this interest is, like so many of Martin's, only temporary and easily diverted).

Imagine a desperate and temperamental Lucy Harris. She is married to Martin Harris, who is a good and hardworking husband but has a tendency to put stock in the religious claims of others when perhaps he shouldn't. Now your husband Martin is involved in another plan, this time involving the creation of a lengthy (and expensive book).

So you decide to see if this book is a good investment. You tell Martin there will be no more money spent until you can see the work-in-progress. If Joseph Smith's book turns out to be good (or even great), you could find yourself with a piece of the next big classic of American literature. Maybe this investment will work out?

Martin agrees, and brings the pages. You settle down at your desk and start reading. But it isn't great. It reads like a mishmash of biblical language and story. There are characters named "Limnob" and "Herlibub". They ride animals called "Cheribmoms" and "Hodignas". There is no discernible story thread. There are repetitive phrases like "I dreamed a dream", and almost every paragraph begins with the phrase "And behold, this is what happened next..."

This isn't what you expected, and you realize Martin has got to stop. Immediately. You have to pull the plug. What's the best way to do this? Destroy the pages. Martin mentioned there were no other copies. This will be the end of the project, since the demoralized Joseph would never want to go back and start from page 1. Martin will come to his senses and leave the scheme behind.

Compare that with Joseph Smith's version of "the plan" as found in D&C 10.

That plan involves Joseph and Martin using even more of Martin's time and money to go back and re-translate. Then it involves that re-translation being made publicly available. Then it involves the Lucy Harris gang somehow making their altered version publicly available in such a way that people compare it to the Joseph Smith publication. And somehow the alterations would be done in such a way that it doesn't look like they went in and altered it in certain places. And then somehow the people that would be interested in the Book of Mormon wouldn't be interested anymore because there is another version of the story floating around that was published by the disgruntled wife of Martin Harris and a gang of Joseph's enemies.

And in all of this, Joseph isn't able to explain the "loose" translation theory that would easily explain why the two translations don't match up. And he isn't able to explain to people that months earlier, the angry wife of his financier stole those pages and altered them.

All I can say is the gospel might be simply wonderful and wonderfully simple, but Church history sure isn't!

 

 

[Thinking]

15 hours ago, 3DOP said:

After all these years, you guys always can bring up something of which I have never heard. We are speaking of manuscript, right? Not lost "pages" of Mormon Dialogue and Discussion? Please, a clue for the guy looking in...

I think 116 is about how many posts were subtracted from my post count with the new upgrade. The mods have them! The mods have them!

Look for an announcement shortly - The April Surprise. Tom Phillips will be on hand to unveil the lost pages and will disavow his prior statements regarding the Church.

[mnn727]

On 1/14/2016 at 11:35 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Well that sucks. I wonder if anything important was in them that we need today.

No, you need to study a bit more if you have that question.

[longview]

8 hours ago, cinepro said:

Sorry, but the only rational explanation is that Lucy destroyed them (probably burned them).

The theory that they were stolen with the plan to have Joseph re-translate and then produce altered pages showing they didn't match makes no sense.  No rational person would create a plan like this, and it makes even less sense for Lucy Harris to be involved.  I've posted this before, but for those who are new or forgetful, here's why:

I'm assuming Lucy Harris's main concern was to stop Martin from giving his money to Joseph. The plan (as revealed to Joseph) wouldn't have accomplished that, because it depended on Joseph restarting the translation and publishing the book (which wasn't going to happen without Martin's money).

Keep in mind, that 116 pages into the project, you have two options if you are worried about the money:

1. Stop immediately and book your losses.

or

2. Finish the project and hope to make your money back with the book being a success and selling well.

The D&C 10 plan is unique in that it does neither of those. If carried out, it would increase the expenditures on the project while at the same time trying to reduce the possibilities of recovering the investment through book sales!

So I do not think there was ever a plot to discredit the Prophet by changing the pages. Such a plot would be a terrible, illogical and borderline comical attempt at subterfuge.

   - - -

I am confused by your "theory".  Do you not believe that the Lord spoke to Joseph Smith about what transpired?  That He revealed the nature of the "plot" by wicked men to destroy the work of the restoration?  The following D&C 10 verses makes clear just how the plot was to be carried out:

 8 And because you have delivered the writings into his hands, behold, wicked men have taken them from you.

 9 Therefore, you have delivered them up, yea, that which was sacred, unto wickedness.

 10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.

 11 And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written;

 12 And, on this wise, the devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work;

 13 For he hath put into their hearts to do this, that by lying they may say they have caught you in the words which you have pretended to translate.

These wicked men were going to destroy the credibility of Joseph Smith by showing that there were multiple versions of the Book of Lehi floating around.  Consider the Mark Hofmann episode.  He claimed to have obtained the "Salamander Letters" and caused it to be printed in newspapers around the country.  Even though I was very skeptical of the piece, the Church did not dismiss it out of hand.  I was impressed with Pres. Hinckley's humility and willingness to let the process continue with verification and review of the provenance.  Fortunately the deception was unraveled when Mark injured himself with his homemade bombs.  Was Mark rational?  I would say not very.  Was he cunning?   Very much so, the quality of his forgeries was stunningly excellent.  Was he doing the bidding of Satan?  I believe very likely.

[RevTestament]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 0:46 AM, The Nehor said:

"The Prophet Joseph informed us that the record of Lehi, was contained on the 116 pages that were first translated and subsequently stolen, and of which an abridgment is given us in the first book of Nephi, which is the record of Nephi individually, he himself being of the lineage of Manasseh; but that Ishmael was of the lineage of Ephraim, and that his sons married into Lehi's family, and Lehi's sons married Ishmael's daughters"

-Erastus Snow from the Journal of Discourses 23:184

Again thank you kindly. Is there a more direct source from the pen of Joseph Smith himself perhaps? Anything in History of the Church or Teachings of the Prophet JS or the like by chance?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Again thank you kindly. Is there a more direct source from the pen of Joseph Smith himself perhaps? Anything in History of the Church or Teachings of the Prophet JS or the like by chance?

Nope, at least not that I know of.

[guerreiro9]

The circumstances regarding the establishment of the Church often get overlooked in this instance.

Many sneer and mock the supposed plot saying that couldn't possibly have been the intent as it would not have been very effective.

While that may be true in a general sense, I think the effectiveness of the plot is being judged by what would do harm to the modern multimillion member church and not what would have been disastrous for Joseph at that moment in time.

The establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ was balanced on a knife edge.  At that moment in time one or two key people choosing not to support Joseph would have put an end to the Church before it started.

 

-guerreiro9

[cinepro]

On 1/16/2016 at 7:49 PM, longview said:

These wicked men were going to destroy the credibility of Joseph Smith by showing that there were multiple versions of the Book of Lehi floating around.  Consider the Mark Hofmann episode.  He claimed to have obtained the "Salamander Letters" and caused it to be printed in newspapers around the country.  Even though I was very skeptical of the piece, the Church did not dismiss it out of hand.  I was impressed with Pres. Hinckley's humility and willingness to let the process continue with verification and review of the provenance.  Fortunately the deception was unraveled when Mark injured himself with his homemade bombs.  Was Mark rational?  I would say not very.  Was he cunning?   Very much so, the quality of his forgeries was stunningly excellent.  Was he doing the bidding of Satan?  I believe very likely.

Sorry, but I don't think the theory set forth in D&C 10 is realistic. 

As I said, I think Lucy Harris was concerned about Martin's time and money.  The plan presented in D&C 10 is absurd because it requires more of Martin's time and money all in an attempt to ruin the endeavor (and lose the investment) only after it is completed.  The only plan that would make sense to the wife of the primary investor in the Book of Mormon would be to either pull the plug immediately and stop the money being spent, or to support the publication and hope to make the money back.

The D&C plan is the exact opposite of both those.  It requires Martin to spend more time and money to reproduce what was lost, then publish it (much more time and money), then the conspirators seek to submarine the project and stop people from buying the book after it has been published, thus ensuring the Martin and Lucy lose all the money. 

The theorized plan also requires an absurd amount of long-range planning, patience, and logistics to execute it.  It hinges on the idea that the conspirators would spend the time and effort to convincingly alter the manuscript, and then patiently wait for the publication of the Book of Mormon (which could be months or years, or never), and then spend the time to publicize their original altered manuscript in such a way that it is known by enough people that they would be convinced not to buy the Book of Mormon.  So they would have to travel and spend time and money taking out ads in newspapers, perhaps publishing their own pamphlet?, or meeting with people face to face.  All for the express purpose of...getting people not to buy a book, with no financial benefit to them.

Imagine if you discovered that your spouse had been secretly draining your savings account to pay the living expenses of a friend who was writing a novel.  She is giving that friend $5,000 a month, paying her rent and food, and then plans to pay for the publication of 10,000 copies of the book when it is done.  You ask your spouse to stop, but they insist this is a good idea.   But you realize the risk to your long-term financial health, and are very concerned.

One day, the friend leaves her laptop at your house, and you're home alone.  You had overheard a conversation where the friend revealed that she is not tech savvy, and is not backing up her hard drive.  You open the file with the book to read it, and much to your horror, you discover it is terrible.  You are faced with the realization that this book, should it ever be finished, will probably not sell at all, and all the money your spouse is investing will be lost.  So what would you do? 

Would you hatch a plan that relied on you taking manuscript off the hard drive and forcing the author to start all over and continue (at your expense), with the idea that when the book is finally published, you will publish that original draft for free and try to ensure the book completely fails?  Or would you delete the only copy of the book, and then explain to your spouse that this project is over, and they will not be spending any more of your money to support it?

 

Edited January 17, 2016 by cinepro

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/15/2016 at 0:35 AM, canard78 said:

Your middle paragraph is a very good point. I remember a seminary video showing the sneaky perpetrators changing letters, like "I" into "t" - but how many times would it make sense to change "little" to "tittle"?

Apparently new research by Skousen and others "proves" that the Book of Mormon was translated sometime around the 1500s and that Joseph was just dictating the words of their translation. I wonder if Skousen believes the 116 pages to have been translated in the same way. If so, dictating them again should have been possible. 

All a moot point really as Skousen hasn't proven his case yet. 

 

On 1/15/2016 at 1:37 AM, The Nehor said:

Skousen did what now?

Yeah.

Consider this an official CFR.

Thanks in advance.

[why me]

It seems to me that joseph's initial reaction was not that he may be proven a fraud but rather, the reaction of his Maker. He freaked out because he thought that heavenly father had a punishment in store for him. Lets face it, the loss of such pages would not cause any pain if he was writing the book himself. Most writers would just move on aftera bout of depression for losing valuable work and then leave it at that. But joseph had concern for this eternal life. This means much when we speak about the writing or translation of the book of mormon. He didn't act like a fraudster.

[Sevenbak]

On January 15, 2016 at 1:37 AM, The Nehor said:

Skousen did what now?

I don't know what he's talking about, but Skousen is saying that the 116 pages also included the first two chapters of Mosiah, which were never re-translated.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705384845/Scholars-Corner-The-stolen-chapters-of-Mosiah.html?pg=all

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, cinepro said:

Sorry, but I don't think the theory set forth in D&C 10 is realistic. 

As I said, I think Lucy Harris was concerned about Martin's time and money.  The plan presented in D&C 10 is absurd because it requires more of Martin's time and money all in an attempt to ruin the endeavor (and lose the investment) only after it is completed.  The only plan that would make sense to the wife of the primary investor in the Book of Mormon would be to either pull the plug immediately and stop the money being spent, or to support the publication and hope to make the money back.

The D&C plan is the exact opposite of both those.  It requires Martin to spend more time and money to reproduce what was lost, then publish it (much more time and money), then the conspirators seek to submarine the project and stop people from buying the book after it has been published, thus ensuring the Martin and Lucy lose all the money. 

The theorized plan also requires an absurd amount of long-range planning, patience, and logistics to execute it.  It hinges on the idea that the conspirators would spend the time and effort to convincingly alter the manuscript, and then patiently wait for the publication of the Book of Mormon (which could be months or years, or never), and then spend the time to publicize their original altered manuscript in such a way that it is known by enough people that they would be convinced not to buy the Book of Mormon.  So they would have to travel and spend time and money taking out ads in newspapers, perhaps publishing their own pamphlet?, or meeting with people face to face.  All for the express purpose of...getting people not to buy a book, with no financial benefit to them.

Imagine if you discovered that your spouse had been secretly draining your savings account to pay the living expenses of a friend who was writing a novel.  She is giving that friend $5,000 a month, paying her rent and food, and then plans to pay for the publication of 10,000 copies of the book when it is done.  You ask your spouse to stop, but they insist this is a good idea.   But you realize the risk to your long-term financial health, and are very concerned.

One day, the friend leaves her laptop at your house, and you're home alone.  You had overheard a conversation where the friend revealed that she is not tech savvy, and is not backing up her hard drive.  You open the file with the book to read it, and much to your horror, you discover it is terrible.  You are faced with the realization that this book, should it ever be finished, will probably not sell at all, and all the money your spouse is investing will be lost.  So what would you do? 

Would you hatch a plan that relied on you taking manuscript off the hard drive and forcing the author to start all over and continue (at your expense), with the idea that when the book is finally published, you will publish that original draft for free and try to ensure the book completely fails?  Or would you delete the only copy of the book, and then explain to your spouse that this project is over, and they will not be spending any more of your money to support it?

 

I think the plan makes some sense. Martin was mostly spending time with Joseph getting the translation done. There was not a ton of money on the line yet. The plan makes sense for Lucy if she was worried Martin was going to pay for the publication which had not happened yet and would not until it was finished. If she could wait for Joseph to start over and do the same part over again she could show Martin (and possibly others) the two copies and keep Martin from mortgaging his farm to pay for the publication.

I agree it would be better from Lucy's point of view to stop the project immediately but destroying the manuscript would not stop Martin from getting involved again. Lucy already thought the book was rubbish and a waste of time and had already tried to convince Martin to give it up and failed. Destroying the book would, as you said, just mean they have to start over and it would take even longer and take up more time and money. With her plan she could hopefully convince Martin to stop as soon as they redid the lost manuscript pages if she could show discrepancies. It is more likely she expected there to be discrepancies already and was only planning to alter the text if they matched.

When Joseph did not retranslate she probably destroyed them.

[longview]

12 hours ago, cinepro said:

Sorry, but I don't think the theory set forth in D&C 10 is realistic. 

As I said, I think Lucy Harris was concerned about Martin's time and money.  The plan presented in D&C 10 is absurd because it requires more of Martin's time and money all in an attempt to ruin the endeavor (and lose the investment) only after it is completed.  The only plan that would make sense to the wife of the primary investor in the Book of Mormon would be to either pull the plug immediately and stop the money being spent, or to support the publication and hope to make the money back.

The D&C plan is the exact opposite of both those.  It requires Martin to spend more time and money to reproduce what was lost, then publish it (much more time and money), then the conspirators seek to submarine the project and stop people from buying the book after it has been published, thus ensuring the Martin and Lucy lose all the money. 

   - - -

What theory are you referring to that is supposedly being put forth in the D&C 10?

Are you thinking that section 10 merely represents Joseph Smith's feverish imaginary conversation that he made only in his mind?

I can agree with you that Lucy Harris was extremely skeptical of the work Joseph Smith was doing.  That she probably did not want her husband to spend time and money assisting with that work.  But you cannot rule out the possibility that she may have involved several men to help her to defeat the translation.  That these men were wicked (although she may have really thought they were honorable men who had great ideas for catching Joseph Smith in a lie).

I strongly disagree with your theory.  It looks like you are grasping at straws.  Your logical exercise is underwhelming.  You have chosen not to respond to parallels seen in the Mark Hofmann caper.  There is another to be found in the story of Philastic Hurlbut who persuaded many people that the BoM was based on Solomon Spaulding's manuscript.  He gained a great following despite never having published the manuscript itself.  Hurlbut put in a great deal of effort scrounging around the midwest looking for dirt on the Church.  I do not think Lucy Harris' cronies would have needed to expend as much effort as did Hurlbut to modify the Book of Lehi and simply confront the Church on why there were multiple versions of it.  They would not have needed to lay the groundwork for preparing anybody's mind.  All they had to do was wait for the retranslation to be completed and published.  They would only need to show up at Church headquarters and everything would have collapsed.

I was disappointed that you have not answered the first two questions in my reply on Friday (Jan 15).  I will repeat them here and ask very sincerely your honest answers:

1- Do you not believe that the Lord spoke to Joseph Smith about what transpired?

2- That He revealed the nature of the "plot" by wicked men to destroy the work of the restoration?

Edited January 17, 2016 by longview

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, longview said:

What theory are you referring to that is supposedly being put forth in the D&C 10?

Are you thinking that section 10 merely represents Joseph Smith's feverish imaginary conversation that he made only in his mind?

I can agree with you that Lucy Harris was extremely skeptical of the work Joseph Smith was doing.  That she probably did not want her husband to spend time and money assisting with that work.  But you cannot rule out the possibility that she may have involved several men to help her to defeat the translation.  That these men were wicked (although she may have really thought they were honorable men who had great ideas for catching Joseph Smith in a lie).

I strongly disagree with your theory.  It looks like you are grasping at straws.  Your logical exercise is underwhelming.  You have chosen not to respond to parallels seen in the Mark Hofmann caper.  There is another to be found in the story of Philastic Hurlbut who persuaded many people that the BoM was based on Solomon Spaulding's manuscript.  He gained a great following despite never having published the manuscript itself.  Hurlbut put in a great deal of effort scrounging around the midwest looking for dirt on the Church.  I do not think Lucy Harris' cronies would have needed to expend as much effort as did Hurlbut to modify the Book of Lehi and simply confront the Church on why there were multiple versions of it.  They would not have needed to lay the groundwork for preparing anybody's mind.  All they had to do was wait for the retranslation to be completed and published.  They would only need to show up at Church headquarters and everything would have collapsed.

I was disappointed that you have not answered the first two questions in my reply on Friday (Jan 15).  I will repeat them here and ask very sincerely your honest answers:

1- Do you not believe that the Lord spoke to Joseph Smith about what transpired?

2- That He revealed the nature of the "plot" by wicked men to destroy the work of the restoration?

I don't know where the theory in D&C 10 came from, but I am highly skeptical of it being a revelation from God.  I also don't think Lucy Harris had any "cronies".   It sounds like a Studio C sketch:

Lucy: Okay Jasper.  My husband is in league with that crackpot Joe Smith.  What can we do to put them out of business?

Jasper: I've got it, m'lady!  You say Joe is claiming to translate those gold tablets?  Well here's what we'll do.  We'll steal all of their current work and hide it.  Then we'll wait a few weeks or months for him to re-translate it!  Then we'll get some quills and ink and we'll change the writing on the pages that we stole.  Then, when he finally goes to the publisher with your husbands money and gets the book published, we'll show the world our pages, and they'll see that Joe's new book is different so he obviously couldn't have been translating it!  He made it up!  What do you think, Kroger?

Kroger:  When Joe publishes his book, how are we going tell people about our pages?

Jasper:  We can show them to the newspapers.  It will be a huge story!

Kroger:  When the newsboys ask us where we got the pages from, what will we tell them?  Joe and Martin might remember that we stole them.

Jasper: It won't matter that we stole them.  People will be so shocked, that's all they'll be able to think about.

Kroger: But won't they be able to tell that we modified the manuscript?  I mean, all the parts that are different from Joe's book will look different, won't they?

Jasper: I know a guy.  Trust me on this.

Lucy: Just one question.  Our plan only seems to work after they've published the book, which means Martin will have already spent our money.  Can we come up with a plan that maybe stops this project before I lose all my money?

Jasper: You're getting distracted, m'lady.  You need to think of the big picture.  Now get us those pages and months or years from now, we'll show the stolen, altered pages to the world and that will be the end of Joe Smith as the rational, critical people of upper state New York reject his gold bible based on our presentation of the stolen, altered pages.  It's almost too easy. 

 

Or: Lucy burned the pages because she was mad about Martin's role in the project.

Keep in mind...

 

Quote

In part due to their continued disagreement over the legitimacy of Joseph Smith and the golden plates, and because of the loss of his farm, which he had mortgaged to publish the Book of Mormon, Harris and his wife separated. Lucy Harris was described by her detractors as a woman of "irascible temper,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Harris

 

 

 

I also don't see any parallels between Mark Hoffman or Hurlbut.  I just don't believe that Lucy Harris or others living in that time and place (frontier America in the 1820s) would come up with a plan like that. 

Edited January 17, 2016 by cinepro