Popular Post consiglieri Posted December 12, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 12, 2015 We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri 7
Popular Post CV75 Posted December 12, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 12, 2015 40 minutes ago, consiglieri said: We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri Two thoughts from Elder Uchtdorf from talks on this subject: “In the end, we are all pilgrims seeking God’s light as we journey on the path of discipleship. We do not condemn others for the amount of light they may or may not have; rather, we nourish and encourage all light until it grows clear, bright, and true.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/receiving-a-testimony-of-light-and-truth?lang=eng “In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng 6
Popular Post volgadon Posted December 12, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 12, 2015 I notice a tendency to exaggerate the role of spiritual confirmation of truth in other religions. 5
mfbukowski Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri Yep I agree. God teaches us what we need to know to reach him. If I had never been an atheist, I would never be Mormon now. I believe that atheism is just a stop along the way. We all have different needs and God can teach us many ways, but I think that in the final analysis, we will all end up together. Contemporary philosophy says that we make our own realities, and that is largely true except if your reality is too different you end up in prison or the looney bin. That means that there are acceptable realities and unaccepable realities. Some work better than others. Family values have evolved- and ultimately Mormonism is the apotheosis of family values. Golden Rule. Be nice to others. Get married and have kids- that is what God himself does. For me it is the best path to the best vision of humanity I can imagine. It is humanism raised to the level of religion. It teaches the full development of mankind- the epitome of civilization. That is why I think we will all evolve eventually toward something like a religous humanism which is what I think Mormonism is. It's the highest form of belief/ideology which teaches the apotheosis of the family and that humanity can perfect itself to the point of godhood. Who could argue with wanting you and your family to be better and better and contribute to a "Zion society"? Go figure. "World peace" is literally the goal of every human being. No one can argue with it. That's why we will all tend naturally toward that, regardless of your verbal squabbles today about the truth of dogmas. And yes, after 36 years of study and leadership and sitting through sunday school and boring and wonderful sacrament meetings and hearing all the arguments of all the antis and everything about polygamy and racism and all of that, you still cannot argue that we all want world peace and be in a loving family. And for me that is what Mormonism is. No dogma. Follow the rules and go to the temple and commune with God and your family. Nothing more, nothing less. Be the best you can be. If you were raised in an authoritarian version of it, I can see how others would rebel, but I think that is ultimately what it is. Those who leave constantly speak of dogmatic "truth claims" because that is what they were taught. They are spiritual teenagers just learning that mom and dad make mistakes. Yes mom and dad make mistakes and so does and did the church. We are all human- get over it. Those who stay were taught to love the spirit and how important families are. We cannot be responsible for how we were raised. It's two different churches. Each of us creates our own version of Mormonism just like everything else, and then we argue about what "doctrine" is when in reality we have no doctrine, just praxis. Oh well. I really don't have anything else to say about it. We did a whole thread a while back about "truth claims" and what "truth" is supposed to be. The bottom line is that no one has ever come up with a coherent definition of "truth" http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65602-on-the-deflationary-theory/#comment-1209510236 No one. Period. But we don't need one. We know what it means we know what a lie is, and we send people to jail for not telling the "truth". Still we define it simplistically with no understanding of what we are saying. But somehow we all get through life, happy or sad, without a coherent definition of the WORD "truth". It's a word. It's not a cosmic mystery. It's a word. We know how to use it but can't fully define it except by how it works in sentences. No biggie. We have to get over these semantic problems and get on with living happily ever after. No more from me on this thread. That's all I got. 2
mfbukowski Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 What? No conflicting truth claims so far? Bye for real this time.
Meadowchik Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 Pretty much exactly how I see it. Except to clarify: each path "true" for each person is the one leading that person to God. In that, there is no conflict.
Teancum Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri As noted on your other thread.... i personally cannot recncile the fact that many, many, many persons from numerous walks of life and religious traditions will claim some sort of spiritual experience or metaphysical experience that speaks to them that their path is THE true path of God. Such conflicting experiences demonstrate that this is not a reliable method for finding truth, i wonder for those who think it is would you want to fly in a plane that sonone designed on some feeling that God was telling them this plane wpuld fly better than all others.
Teancum Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 2 hours ago, CV75 said: Two thoughts from Elder Uchtdorf from talks on this subject: “In the end, we are all pilgrims seeking God’s light as we journey on the path of discipleship. We do not condemn others for the amount of light they may or may not have; rather, we nourish and encourage all light until it grows clear, bright, and true.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/receiving-a-testimony-of-light-and-truth?lang=eng “In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng In othr words the LDS church still has the superior truth claims.
Avatar4321 Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, volgadon said: I notice a tendency to exaggerate the role of spiritual confirmation of truth in other religions. I tend to agree. I've talked with many people outside the church and the Spirit testifying of their faith being true is a foreign concept, especially outside of Christianity where there is no teaching that the Holy Spirit exists. Heck, we have at least one evangelical who is here regularly telling us that trusting the Spirit is wrong 1
Teancum Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Yep I agree. God teaches us what we need to know to reach him. If I had never been an atheist, I would never be Mormon now. I believe that atheism is just a stop along the way. We all have different needs and God can teach us many ways, but I think that in the final analysis, we will all end up together. Contemporary philosophy says that we make our own realities, and that is largely true except if your reality is too different you end up in prison or the looney bin. That means that there are acceptable realities and unaccepable realities. Some work better than others. Family values have evolved- and ultimately Mormonism is the apotheosis of family values. Golden Rule. Be nice to others. Get married and have kids- that is what God himself does. For me it is the best path to the best vision of humanity I can imagine. It is humanism raised to the level of religion. It teaches the full development of mankind- the epitome of civilization. That is why I think we will all evolve eventually toward something like a religous humanism which is what I think Mormonism is. It's the highest form of belief/ideology which teaches the apotheosis of the family and that humanity can perfect itself to the point of godhood. Who could argue with wanting you and your family to be better and better and contribute to a "Zion society"? Go figure. "World peace" is literally the goal of every human being. No one can argue with it. That's why we will all tend naturally toward that, regardless of your verbal squabbles today about the truth of dogmas. And yes, after 36 years of study and leadership and sitting through sunday school and boring and wonderful sacrament meetings and hearing all the arguments of all the antis and everything about polygamy and racism and all of that, you still cannot argue that we all want world peace and be in a loving family. And for me that is what Mormonism is. No dogma. Follow the rules and go to the temple and commune with God and your family. Nothing more, nothing less. Be the best you can be. If you were raised in an authoritarian version of it, I can see how others would rebel, but I think that is ultimately what it is. Those who leave constantly speak of dogmatic "truth claims" because that is what they were taught. They are spiritual teenagers just learning that mom and dad make mistakes. Yes mom and dad make mistakes and so does and did the church. We are all human- get over it. Those who stay were taught to love the spirit and how important families are. We cannot be responsible for how we were raised. It's two different churches. Each of us creates our own version of Mormonism just like everything else, and then we argue about what "doctrine" is when in reality we have no doctrine, just praxis. Oh well. I really don't have anything else to say about it. We did a whole thread a while back about "truth claims" and what "truth" is supposed to be. The bottom line is that no one has ever come up with a coherent definition of "truth" http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65602-on-the-deflationary-theory/#comment-1209510236 No one. Period. But we don't need one. We know what it means we know what a lie is, and we send people to jail for not telling the "truth". Still we define it simplistically with no understanding of what we are saying. But somehow we all get through life, happy or sad, without a coherent definition of the WORD "truth". It's a word. It's not a cosmic mystery. It's a word. We know how to use it but can't fully define it except by how it works in sentences. No biggie. We have to get over these semantic problems and get on with living happily ever after. No more from me on this thread. That's all I got. As is typical you used a lot of words to say little. What is the essence of this post?
mfbukowski Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 16 minutes ago, Teancum said: As noted on your other thread.... i personally cannot recncile the fact that many, many, many persons from numerous walks of life and religious traditions will claim some sort of spiritual experience or metaphysical experience that speaks to them that their path is THE true path of God. Such conflicting experiences demonstrate that this is not a reliable method for finding truth, i wonder for those who think it is would you want to fly in a plane that sonone designed on some feeling that God was telling them this plane wpuld fly better than all others. Different kinds of truth- see the other thread You made me break my rule!
mfbukowski Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 14 minutes ago, Teancum said: As is typical you used a lot of words to say little. What is the essence of this post? For you nothing whatsoever. Have fun creating your own reality. I hope you are happy! 3
Sanpitch Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Pretty much exactly how I see it. Except to clarify: each path "true" for each person is the one leading that person to God. In that, there is no conflict. Except which god are you talking about, there are many gods.
sunstoned Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 2 hours ago, volgadon said: I notice a tendency to exaggerate the role of spiritual confirmation of truth in other religions. +1000
Calm Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 4 hours ago, Sanpitch said: Except which god are you talking about, there are many gods. All who are exalted become one with God, so there is only one ultimate destination. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 11 minutes ago, Calm said: All who are exalted become one with God, so there is only one ultimate destination. "We need what Paul sought to give the Galatians, a conviction and assurance that there are not many ways to heaven, but only one way " https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/05/only-one-way?lang=eng
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 7 hours ago, CV75 said: Two thoughts from Elder Uchtdorf from talks on this subject: “In the end, we are all pilgrims seeking God’s light as we journey on the path of discipleship. We do not condemn others for the amount of light they may or may not have; rather, we nourish and encourage all light until it grows clear, bright, and true.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/receiving-a-testimony-of-light-and-truth?lang=eng but our church claims to have the fullness of the gospel
CV75 Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 5 hours ago, Teancum said: In othr words the LDS church still has the superior truth claims. and? 32 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but our church claims to have the fullness of the gospel and? 1
rodheadlee Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 10 hours ago, consiglieri said: We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri How do you know it's the same spirit that worketh all in all? Scripture clearly shows you can be influenced by evil spirits. Occam's Razor would apply here. If the spirits' testimonies conflict with each other, there is more than one spirit testifying and one of them is lying. Will God lie to us? Will he trick us with false testimonies? Can a house divided stand? 2Nephi32: 8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the aSpirit which teacheth a man to bpray ye would know that ye must cpray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. Mosiah 2: 36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go acontrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do bwithdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved— 37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open arebellion against God; therefore he blisteth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in cunholy temples.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 13 hours ago, consiglieri said: We are confronted in today's world with many different truth claims. One person says her religion is true, and that she has a spiritual witness to confirm it. Another person says his religion is true, and that he has a spiritual witness to confirm it. And so on, and so on, until the examples are legion. And many, if not all, of these spiritually confirmed truth claims conflict with one another. This has led many to throw out the idea of spiritual witnesses confirming any truth claim, since they are obviously unreliable, as the same Spirit is testifying to the truth of conflicting claims. It has led others to privilege their own witness as the only one that is correct, leading them to view such claims from others as either fraudulent or inspired by sources other than God. I view it differently. I accept the testimony from others that the Spirit has witnessed to them the truth of their own faith, even when that faith conflicts with my own. What makes my witness more important to me is simply that--it is my spiritual witness. While others may receive witnesses that lead them in their own spiritual journey, I believe that my witnesses are meant to lead me in my spiritual journey. Those journeys do not have to be the same, and frequently are quite divergent. But that is okay. Because God is working with everybody, to the extent they are willing to be worked with. And God is leading them in the way that is best for them. One of those ways is Mormonism. Many of those ways are not Mormonism. One of those ways may lead a person into Mormonism. Another of those ways may lead a person out of Mormonism. And into and out of any religious faith or belief system. But it is the same Spirit that worketh all in all. I am interested in the thoughts that others may have on this subject. All the Best! --Consiglieri There is much wisdom here, but there is also far too much relativism. People often believe what they want to believe, creating god in their own image, or else merely finding a way to feel good (II Tim 4:3). The same spirit does not necessarily worketh in all. Indeed, some find demonic spirits to be their inspiration (Matt 8:28-32).
Meadowchik Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 14 hours ago, Sanpitch said: Except which god are you talking about, there are many gods. Read the OP again. I was speaking about how I agreed with it specifically.
CV75 Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 8 hours ago, rodheadlee said: How do you know it's the same spirit that worketh all in all? Scripture clearly shows you can be influenced by evil spirits. Occam's Razor would apply here. If the spirits' testimonies conflict with each other, there is more than one spirit testifying and one of them is lying. Will God lie to us? Will he trick us with false testimonies? Can a house divided stand? 5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: There is much wisdom here, but there is also far too much relativism. People often believe what they want to believe, creating god in their own image, or else merely finding a way to feel good (II Tim 4:3). The same spirit does not necessarily worketh in all. Indeed, some find demonic spirits to be their inspiration (Matt 8:28-32). Good points. I had allowed that the "same Spirit" was the light of Christ as the least common denominator since the OP recognized that God is working with and leading all His children, but of course there are alternate influences. I also think that God prompts everyone to seek Him, and entices everyone to receive the greatest light available and accessible to them, but obviously not everyone goes along with Him. To me, conflicting enticements is a manifestation of the spirit of contention against the Lord (3 Nephi 11:21) and the natural man, the devil against the Lord (2 Nephi 9:29, Mosiah 3:19). Or even between good, better and best. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/good-better-best?lang=eng 1
Teancum Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 18 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yep I agree. God teaches us what we need to know to reach him. If I had never been an atheist, I would never be Mormon now. I believe that atheism is just a stop along the way. We all have different needs and God can teach us many ways, but I think that in the final analysis, we will all end up together. Contemporary philosophy says that we make our own realities, and that is largely true except if your reality is too different you end up in prison or the looney bin. That means that there are acceptable realities and unaccepable realities. Some work better than others. Family values have evolved- and ultimately Mormonism is the apotheosis of family values. Golden Rule. Be nice to others. Get married and have kids- that is what God himself does. For me it is the best path to the best vision of humanity I can imagine. It is humanism raised to the level of religion. It teaches the full development of mankind- the epitome of civilization. That is why I think we will all evolve eventually toward something like a religous humanism which is what I think Mormonism is. It's the highest form of belief/ideology which teaches the apotheosis of the family and that humanity can perfect itself to the point of godhood. Who could argue with wanting you and your family to be better and better and contribute to a "Zion society"? Go figure. "World peace" is literally the goal of every human being. No one can argue with it. That's why we will all tend naturally toward that, For some reason why I try to quote others comments and respond on this thread Mark's post above keeps popping up. So Mark I read this and your other posts again and am considering. You make some good points but some not so much. When I asked what was the essence of your points I was not trying to be snarky. I have read a lot of your posts here on the board and I often am left scratching my head wondering "what the heck is he trying to say?" Maybe I am just to slow and not smart enough to get your approach. I am also not steeped at all in Philosphy. So maybe that is a stumbling block for me. Rodheadlee you said maybe those getting what they think is an answer are getting it from another source and then you sited Ocam's razor that both cannot be right. I agree. Or they are both wrong and neither are getting and answer from God but rather perhaps from their own internal emotions.
Kenngo1969 Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 Here are some clues to my approach: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ For some discussion on this piece, see here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57535-toward-interreligious-oneness/
Ahab Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 I often notice that THIS is true and THAT is true too, as well as THIS OTHER THING that is also true at the same time, but what buggers me is when someone else says that what I can see as truth IS REALLY NOT TRUE and they don't even seem open to the idea that it really is true even though I am telling them that I can see that it really is true. I think the DENIAL OF TRUTH is what people should be concerned about. Not because it does any good to deny what is true as if a denial somehow refutes what is true but because they truth is still true even when someone is denying it is true. 1
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