Being Mormon in the 21st century

[Rivers]

I really love the church but it is feeling increasingly more difficult to be a member of the church these days.  I understand that church members have always been persecuted in the past.  But today things are different. We are now constantly being accused of being a harmful church. Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot.  It causes me a lot of anxiety when so many negative feelings are being  expressed toward the church.  And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Personally, I think the world is correct to criticize our institutional homophobia and sexism, just as it was correct to criticize our institutional racism. We could be a much more effective force for good in the world if we un-mingled such unfortunate philosophies from our scriptures and gatherings.   

Edited December 6, 2015 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[The Nehor]

Our generation has had it pretty easy. Adam watched his whole family go apostate, Enoch had to flee to build his own city to survive, Noah had to build an ark to flee, Abraham wandered all over from famine to famine having to pretend his wife was not his wife to keep his family alive, Moses had to deal with stubborn idiots, the Israelites had to be routinely occupied by foreign power after foreign to keep them in line, and the early Christians seemed to think prison and martyrdom were the normal reward for faithfulness. The Book of Revelation shows what really oppressed people were dealing with. In the New World the Nephites were constantly tormented by their enemies to keep them in line until they were destroyed.

Being thought of as being odd and dealing with unkind internet comments and the occasional boycott is relatively mild. There is nothing we can do to make the rest of the world like us except abandoning our faith. The Savior taught this repeatedly. God seems to have allowed us a reprieve from most persecution for about a century. I expect this was necessary to get the gospel across the world and it might be coming to an end. It is not that bad though. There are people throughout the world being persecuted (some LDS but most not) and while it is not a lot of fun they survive and grow. So will we. In that day the Spirit of God will come down in greater power and the comforts of upvotes on the internet or even feeling like we belong in larger society pale to what the love of God is like.

This may sound like bravado and in many ways it is. I am timid about enduring trials. Emotionally I can feel the fear even though intellectually I know we will be all right. One day I hope to be more like President Kimball and able to say: "Give me this mountain."

[janderich]

I was at lunch with a couple of friends at work who are not LDS. We started discussing the new policy regarding children and a homosexual couple being the primary care provider. One of them said, "Why can't you just accept these people (gays and lesbians) for who they are?" I had to tell him that I accept them and would never reject them as people but that I believed their lifestyle would never ultimately make them happy. We then got into a short discussion about how they were born that way and couldn't change it. I again felt I needed to tell them that people may be born with certain tendencies but that they always have a choice. After that, the conversation sort of died. It felt awkward for a few minutes until we finally moved on to other topics. Face to face is more awkward than on the internet.

I left disappointed. Disappointed that our society cannot recognize homosexual behavior as a choice, and disappointed in almost the sure knowledge that I will have to face this again and again with people who will refuse to understand. I too wonder how far this will go. I think we will be hated more and more by society for our views. Ostracized more and more for what we believe. But I'll square my shoulders and move forward. Sin is sin and we cannot be unclear about such things, it does no one any good.

Edited December 6, 2015 by janderich

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, janderich said:

I was at lunch with a couple of friends at work who are not LDS. We started discussing the new policy regarding children and a homosexual couple being the primary care provider. One of them said, "Why can't you just accept these people (gays and lesbians) for who they are?" I had to tell him that I accept them and would never reject them as people but that I believed their lifestyle would never ultimately make them happy. We then got into a short discussion about how they were born that way and couldn't change it. I again felt I needed to tell them that people may be born with certain tendencies but that they always have a choice. After that, the conversation sort of died. It felt awkward for a few minutes until we finally moved on to other topics. Face to face is more awkward than on the internet.

I left disappointed. Disappointed that our society cannot recognize homosexual behavior as a choice, and disappointed in almost the sure knowledge that I will have to face this again and again with people who will refuse to understand. I too wonder how far this will go. I think we will be hated more and more by society for our views. Ostracized more and more for what we believe. But I'll square my shoulders and move forward. Sin is sin and we cannot be unclear about such things, it does no one any good.

 

Maybe those who you were talking to left disappointed that your personal religious dogma gets in the way of science and evidence.

[bluebell]

I think we are going to have to get used to being uncomfortable. Considering society's moral compass, it's probably a good thing when our beliefs differ from theirs. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by bluebell
Typo

[filovirus]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

Maybe those who you were talking to left disappointed that your personal religious dogma gets in the way of science and evidence.

How do you mean? Is there science and evidence that they will inherit the C Kingdom? Please explain. That is how I took that statement. I know you probably don't mean it that way. Just asking for clarification.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

I really love the church but it is feeling increasingly more difficult to be a member of the church these days.  I understand that church members have always been persecuted in the past.  But today things are different. We are now constantly being accused of being a harmful church. Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot.  It causes me a lot of anxiety when so many negative feelings are being  expressed toward the church.  And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

It's often said that is is difficult but worth it. Societal pressure is just one aspect of the difficulties each of us faces in the world; there are many other external and internal pressures working against us. The way I see it, is the net effect of everything, which hinges on my choices, plays out in the direction I am going with the Lord.

[Teancum]

janderich was disappointed that whoever janderich was talking to did not recognize that "homosexual is a choice."  That is the the specific point at which my comment was directed.  

[filovirus]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

janderich was disappointed that whoever janderich was talking to did not recognize that "homosexual is a choice."  That is the the specific point at which my comment was directed.  

Confusion on my part for misunderstanding you. But he did say "homosexual behavior", not homosexuality in general.

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, Rivers said:

And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

Personally I think it's better to be uncomfortable. Discomfort allows for greater assessment for what we do believe. If we're permanently comfortable there's little chance that our beliefs about any given topic will ever really be assessed and considered by us. This doesn't mean that all our beliefs will/should change. But that the reasoning for them and understanding about them may further develop. Some parts should and will change. 

Without the discrepancy on homosexuality, our overarching dialogue about it would have remained extremely divisive and harmful. The discrepancy has helped breed greater compassion and understanding within our own parameters.

Within my life, without the personal discomfort as a teen I never would have sought out answers and truth. Being mormon wasn't an appealing trait in Texas. 

Some of this is oversimplified, of course. But I prefer at least some level of discomfort.  I don't think society is necessarily correct in all its criticisms nor that we should necessarily mirror societal solutions to things surround Gender or LGBT issues. In many ways we follow a drastically different philosophy and social construct...which means several of our solutions/answers should be different. But we'll rarely "dig deep" into either of these areas without a sense of needing to. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Teancum]

28 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Confusion on my part for misunderstanding you. But he did say "homosexual behavior", not homosexuality in general.

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

This wasn't asked of me but my answer is of course it's a choice! 😊

There are thousands if not millions of people on the earth at this minute who have chosen to live chaste (as in no sexual contact with anyone) lives for whatever reason. 

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Personally I think it's better to be uncomfortable. Discomfort allows for greater assessment for what we do believe. If we're permanently comfortable there's little chance that our beliefs about any given topic will ever really be assessed and considered by us. This doesn't mean that all our beliefs will/should change. But that the reasoning for them and understanding about them may further develop. Some parts should and will change. 

Without the discrepancy on homosexuality, our overarching dialogue about it would have remained extremely divisive and harmful. The discrepancy has helped breed greater compassion and understanding within our own parameters.

Within my life, without the personal discomfort as a teen I never would have sought out answers and truth. Being mormon wasn't an appealing trait in Texas. 

Some of this is oversimplified, of course. But I prefer at least some level of discomfort.  I don't think society is necessarily correct in all its criticisms nor that we should necessarily mirror societal solutions to things surround Gender or LGBT issues. In many ways we follow a drastically different philosophy and social construct...which means several of our solutions/answers should be different. But we'll rarely "dig deep" into either of these areas without a sense of needing to. 

 

With luv,

BD

Well I've been uncomfortable around non LDS, inactive, or anti LDS for most my life, so maybe I was doing something right.  But now I'm not uncomfortable around them, I love and see them in a different light.  I don't feel guarded or that I'm in a different world then they.  It feels kind of nice for a change. 

[JLHPROF]

Society is in constant flux, motion, and what society deems moral and acceptable changes all the time.

God's morality and law doesn't change and cannot change.

It is very uncomfortable to try and stand still on a moving platform, to try to remain upright in a gale force storm, and to try and stick immovable to a standard when everyone else is changing theirs.

[BlueDreams]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well I've been uncomfortable around non LDS, inactive, or anti LDS for most my life, so maybe I was doing something right.  But now I'm not uncomfortable around them, I love and see them in a different light.  I don't feel guarded or that I'm in a different world then they.  It feels kind of nice for a change. 

I think we're talking about 2 very different types of discomfort....I'm talking about discomfort (maybe dissonance or disagreement would be better words) with social thought/trends, not about individual people. You can definitely split the 2. My examples with TX wasn't about the people, per se, but the social ideas ascribed to being mormon by others in Texas this included being religiously wrong, racist, cult-like, ignorant, sheeple, etc. I grew up surrounded by non-lds folk, including several family members, so I don't really get the discomfort about that....well maybe ev/baptist followers. But again, that had more to do with some very negative personal experiences down in Texas (and a few on my mission) that I had to work through. I didn't have an innate discomfort before then.

Things that have entailed a level a discomfort due to conflicting ideas would include religion, discussion on evolution (in TX), racial constructs (in and outside the church), family, etc. Again generally not a specific person. Though who knows, I probably would be uncomfortable with someone obviously anti-lds for similar reasons to being uncomfortable with someone overtly racist or anti-gay or anti-Semitic. 

With luv,

BD

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Society is in constant flux, motion, and what society deems moral and acceptable changes all the time.

God's morality and law doesn't change and cannot change.

It is very uncomfortable to try and stand still on a moving platform, to try to remain upright in a gale force storm, and to try and stick immovable to a standard when everyone else is changing theirs.

 

Joseph Smith April 11 1842:

Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

"God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation."

"A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This wasn't asked of me but my answer is of course it's a choice! 😊

There are thousands if not millions of people on the earth at this minute who have chosen to live chaste (as in no sexual contact with anyone) lives for whatever reason. 

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born, for all your mortal life never a chance to enter into an emotionally and physically intimate relationship SIMPLY because you were born a certain way?  In LDS dogma heterosexuals at least have the opportunity to someday choose such a relationship.   Indeed they are required to to receive exaltation.

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.  That is how critical I beleive such relationships are to our well being.

[TheSkepticChristian]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

 Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot. 

The accusation that it is a sexist church is nonsense, most LDS members are not sexist. The LDS church values women a lot.

However, a significant number of LDS members are still homophobic. However, our church is not the only church with that problem. 

Religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts, study finds

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study

[TheSkepticChristian]

24 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born,

I wonder why our church allowed cohabiting couples to get baptized. It is true, it was about 20 years ago in South America that the church allowed them to join.

In other words, unmarried couples were allowed to have sex because in some South American countries there were no divorce laws.

So I wonder why our church cannot allow children of gay couples to join the church.

Edited December 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Storm Rider]

18 hours ago, Rivers said:

I really love the church but it is feeling increasingly more difficult to be a member of the church these days.  I understand that church members have always been persecuted in the past.  But today things are different. We are now constantly being accused of being a harmful church. Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot.  It causes me a lot of anxiety when so many negative feelings are being  expressed toward the church.  And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

In the world, but not of the world.  

I think we each have to learn to be comfortable on being disciples of Christ that have an eye single to the glory of God.  We are not on this earth to gain the acceptance from other human beings.  We are on this earth to gain a body and learn to love God first and foremost, which means that we learn to take the physical body's passions and carnal desires and harness them to the point that they do not rule our lives - that they are subservient to our desires to serve God.

To learn to love others because God loved them first and accept them in whatever condition they are found.  If they are interested in hearing an answer to their woes and heartache, share the gospel.  If they are not interested we demonstrate our love to them through kind words and actions.  At no point do need to feel the need to, nor should we ever, condone sin.  The point is that humans are not sins; they are children of God.  

If others want to criticize us or condemn us for what their narrow minds can only conceive of being racist, sexist, and homophobic then let them and let their words roll off our backs as water does from a ducks back.  Those that use these epithets are serving their own God.  Love them anyway, but allow their accusations and condemnations fall on deaf ears.  I know who I serve and I know his commandments. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Storm Rider

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born, for all your mortal life never a chance to enter into an emotionally and physically intimate relationship SIMPLY because you were born a certain way?  In LDS dogma heterosexuals at least have the opportunity to someday choose such a relationship.   Indeed they are required to to receive exaltation.

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.  That is how critical I beleive such relationships are to our well being.

There are multiple things that I'm dealing with that I would rather not and which are in my control to change if I chose to. I choose to deal with them because I don't believe the alternative is worth the price. 

Besides me personally, there are people who chose to shun sexual relationships because they believe they gain something much better for the sacrifice.  Religious orders often demand such things. 

Those people view their relationship with God to be more important than anything else. 😊

Lastly, whether or not something is hard has no bearing on it being a choice or not. Lots of choices are difficult yet our agency remains. 

[janderich]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

janderich was disappointed that whoever janderich was talking to did not recognize that "homosexual is a choice."  That is the the specific point at which my comment was directed.  

 

3 hours ago, filovirus said:

Confusion on my part for misunderstanding you. But he did say "homosexual behavior", not homosexuality in general.

Exactly. Homosexual behavior has always been, and will always be, a choice. We are free to choose. Is it a difficult choice for some? Yes. But to pretend there is no choice is to deny the freedom that has been given us by our Father in Heaven. 

I think we have only seen a beginning to this type of lie. I believe soon other choices such as this will also be declared as unchangeable. As this progresses anyone who disagrees will be labeled a bigot  and yet such as not the case. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born, for all your mortal life never a chance to enter into an emotionally and physically intimate relationship SIMPLY because you were born a certain way?  In LDS dogma heterosexuals at least have the opportunity to someday choose such a relationship.   Indeed they are required to to receive exaltation.

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.  That is how critical I beleive such relationships are to our well being.

No, I would not like that. I would also not be interested in a life as a slave in a Roman mine or working a southern plantation. I do not think I would like to be forcibly castrated and made a eunuch. I would not like to be one of the untouchable caste in India. I would not like to be born or acquire in childhood an obsession with a sexual perversion that I crave. I would not want to be a sadist or a sociopath yet people endure horrible circumstances. The idea that homosexuals have a uniquely hard life is a conceit.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

In the world, but not of the world.  

I think we each have to learn to be comfortable on being disciples of Christ that have an eye single to the glory of God.  We are not on this earth to gain the acceptance from other human beings.  We are on this earth to learn gain a body and learn to love God first and foremost, which means that we learn to take the physical body's passions and carnal desires and harness them to the point that they do not rule our lives - that they are subservient to our desires to serve God.

To learn to love others because God loved them first and accept them in whatever condition they are found.  If they are interested in hearing an answer to their woes and heartache, share the gospel.  If they are not interested we demonstrate our love to them through kind words and actions.  At no point do need to feel, nor should we ever, condone sin.  The point is that humans are not sins; they are children of God.  

If others want to criticize us or condemn us for what their narrow minds can only conceive of being racist, sexist, and homophobic.  Those that uses these epitaphs are serving their own God.  Love them anyway, but their accusations and condemnations fall on deaf ears.  I know who I serve and I know his commandments. 

I think you post was fine until you accused those who disagree as narrow minded.   Your post certainly could be construed as such by those who disagree with you.   Would that be a fair summation of how you view yourself?