Being Mormon in the 21st century

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

There are multiple things that I'm dealing with that I would rather not and which are in my control to change if I chose to. I choose to deal with them because I don't believe the alternative is worth the price. 

Besides me personally, there are people who chose to shun sexual relationships because they believe they gain something much better for the sacrifice.  Religious orders often demand such things. 

Those people view their relationship with God to be more important than anything else. 😊

Lastly, whether or not something is hard has no bearing on it being a choice or not. Lots of choices are difficult yet our agency remains. 

Sure we all deal with our lot in life.   I could be wrong but I think the issue of sexuality is very different Thant other inherent issues.  I have had cancer and had it at a young age.   My body still does not function in a total proper way as a result of what had to be done to irradicate the cancer.   I have high blood pressure in spite of being a proper weight, watching what I eat and being very active.  I think genetically I have ben prone to depression and have had to work on ways to cope and such.   Still I don't equate these to the same as our sexuality and being denied a meaningful relationship.   And those who choose celibacy for their own personal worship do do on their own volition.   They are not commanded to do so.  Again very different at least in my view.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No, I would not like that. I would also not be interested in a life as a slave in a Roman mine or working a southern plantation. I do not think I would like to be forcibly castrated and made a eunuch. I would not like to be one of the untouchable caste in India. I would not like to be born or acquire in childhood an obsession with a sexual perversion that I crave. I would not want to be a sadist or a sociopath yet people endure horrible circumstances. The idea that homosexuals have a uniquely hard life is a conceit.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Teancum
Never mind.

[filovirus]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

Unless a person is being compelled to perform homosexual behavior, then yes, it is a choice.

[why me]

I think that the US is experiencing a time of identity politics where all should be considered equal. This has not always been the case because of the moral foundation of the US. In the past, the US acted upon a puritan code of ethics or a WASPish religious philosophy. The puritans have had a direct effect on US moral values. Now the puritan values of the past are being swept away with a new secularism that puts all religious moral teachings that do not conform to secular/humanist understandings under the spotlight. The lds church is one of those churches that is now coming under attack because it teaches a different moral code than the one that is now currently guiding the US. If we go back just 3 decades no one would have dreamed that gays would be legally married in the US. Very few people were ready for such a happening. But now that is not the case. Should the lds church rewrite the proclamation on the family and make it conform to current secular values? Or should it still speak for what god expects the family to be? Should the lds church conform to what the western world expects it to be? Of course Americans and other westerners have now been conditioned to support causes that the lds church sees as unfit. But should not the church of god be a church of god or should it be a church of 'man'?

Also, in other parts of the world that have not been subjected to western secular values, the proclamation of the family would still receive much support, especially in africa and asia. However, in the secular west where traditional values have been upended, the church will be persecuted in the media and among the secular minded. However, the lds should defend their views. Explain what the proclamation is and have copies of it to hand out. One can base a good conversation on the proclamation and wha it says.

Either the lds church is led by god or it is led by human beings. If it is led by god, then members would have an obligation to defend lds values. If one believes that the lds church is led by human beings, then one can be critical of it. At the end of the day, it seems that the lds church is on the right track not to backtrack. By backtracking the critics would then claim that the church is run by men and not by god. But of course this is all by my opinion.

Edited December 6, 2015 by why me

[BookofMormonLuvr]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

All behavior is a choice.

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

All behavior is a choice.

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

lol... really?? 

[Danzo]

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

Maybe those who you were talking to left disappointed that your personal religious dogma gets in the way of science and evidence.

What science?

I am not aware of any science that humans can't control their  sexual behaviors.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Danzo

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

Yes

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born, for all your mortal life never a chance to enter into an emotionally and physically intimate relationship SIMPLY because you were born a certain way?  In LDS dogma heterosexuals at least have the opportunity to someday choose such a relationship.   Indeed they are required to to receive exaltation.

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.  That is how critical I beleive such relationships are to our well being.

I was consigned to a life of celebacy until I was 26 years old. I survived just fine

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I wonder why our church allowed cohabiting couples to get baptized. It is true, it was about 20 years ago in South America that the church allowed them to join.

In other words, unmarried couples were allowed to have sex because in some South American countries there were no divorce laws.

So I wonder why our church cannot allow children of gay couples to join the church.

Of course they allow children of gay couples to join the church.  If you are going to complain, at least make sure the church actually does what you are complaining about.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Maybe those who you were talking to left disappointed that your personal religious dogma gets in the way of science and evidence.

Not only does this imaginary scientific evidence not exist, but the evidence from anthropology, linguistics, and history is virtually unanimous in opposing your preferred dogma.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.

It's comforting to know that you think so highly of the existence of so many.

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  So is your position that heterosexual behavior is a choice?

all behavior is a choice. By the very definition of the word.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll take living in this generation of the church over any other generation with the advances in modern medicine and technology and plumbing. And I'm really glad we're not being killed and kicked out of our homes and have to cross the plains in the snow. The worst we have it is having some people on the internet call us out.

Edited December 6, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

lol... really?? 

Hey you are the one who said ALL BEHAVIOR.

[Teancum]

52 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I was consigned to a life of celebacy until I was 26 years old. I survived just fine

But not for your entire life I take it.  When you or any others who object to this line of thought are faced with such then your blithe dismissals will carry some substance.   Till then not so much.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Hey you are the one who said ALL BEHAVIOR.

You won't die from not engaging in immoral conduct. There's a difference- but you know that.

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I'll take living in this generation of the church over any other generation with the advances in modern medicine and technology and plumbing.

Yeah, I'm with you, mate. I carry in my pocket thousands of pages of words of true prophets, both ancient and modern. I have almost instant access to a deluge of teachings, reminders, warnings, and messages of encouragement and correction from living prophets of God. Though I live thousands of kilometres from Church headquarters, so far this year I've received, firsthand, instruction from an apostle and several members of the Seventy. I can participate in missionary lessons via Facebook and Skype. And on it goes. The mocking and finger-pointing are a small price to pay to live in such times!

Quote

The worst we have it is having some people on the internet call us out.

You've just reminded me of my favourite lines from Milton's 'Paradise Regained', spoken by the Saviour in response to the temptations of Satan:

Quote

And what the people but a herd confused,
A miscellaneous rabble, who extol
Things vulgar, and, well weighed, scarce worth the praise?
They praise and they admire they know not what,
And know not whom, but as one leads the other;
And what delight to be by such extolled,
To live upon their tongues, and be their talk?
Of whom to be dispraised were no small praise—
...
This is true glory and renown—when God,
Looking on the Earth, with approbation marks
The just man, and divulges him through Heaven
To all his Angels, who with true applause
Recount his praises. Thus he did to Job...

 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And those who choose celibacy for their own personal worship do do on their own volition.   They are not commanded to do so.  Again very different at least in my view.

They do it because they believe it's what God wants of them.  That's no different than why a homosexual person would choose a celibate lifestyle.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

 

There are plenty of people who choose not to eat, drink, or breathe.  The consequences aren't good (and can be lethal) but that doesn't mean they don't still choose not to do them.

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

I think we should use the term "moral agency" when talking about moral issues such as homosexual behavior.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Would you like to be consigned to a life of celibacy because of how you were born, for all your mortal life never a chance to enter into an emotionally and physically intimate relationship SIMPLY because you were born a certain way?  In LDS dogma heterosexuals at least have the opportunity to someday choose such a relationship.   Indeed they are required to to receive exaltation.

To me being denied such a relationship for my entire life would be close to not being able to eat or sleep.  That is how critical I beleive such relationships are to our well being.

That is considered the equivalent of trading your birthright for a mess of pottage. Also with the same brush you sweep the efforts of every Catholic priest or nun that ever lived off the table.

Edited December 7, 2015 by rodheadlee
for clairity

[carbon dioxide]

16 hours ago, Rivers said:

I really love the church but it is feeling increasingly more difficult to be a member of the church these days.  I understand that church members have always been persecuted in the past.  But today things are different. We are now constantly being accused of being a harmful church. Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot.  It causes me a lot of anxiety when so many negative feelings are being  expressed toward the church.  And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

It is all part of the being a part of Lehi dream.  There are those in the spacious building mocking those that are holding the the iron rod.  Some become ashamed and let go and walk away.  Some even go and join in the mocking.  What is important we do not listen to the mockery.  We know those who mock in the building have a short time and if we endure we get everything and the mockers get scraps.  If we are feeling comfortable in our position in life then Satan is probably satisfied where he has us.  It is hard but remember there are people out there that have suffered far more than what we have to deal with.  Count your blessings and just keep plugging onward.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

You can easily choose not to do any of those things. The idea that anyone forces you to do such a thing is ridiculous.