Being Mormon in the 21st century

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

In other words because My God says so....

Dogmatic a priori assumptions and positions go a long way to convincing those who see the world differently than you do.

And how do you know I am confused?  Have we met?

Are you under the delusion that we think we are going to convince the people of the world en masse that we are right?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Just now, Teancum said:

In other words because My God says so....

Dogmatic a priori assumptions and positions go a long way to convincing those who see the world differently than you do.

And how do you know I am confused?  Have we met?

You accept immoral activity as "good"- of course you are confused.

It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. It is only my job to speak truth, let the chips fall where they may.

As to the original point of the topic:

Bring it on! Why should I have to endure anything less than what the saints in former ages had to endure? I am ready for the ride! Let the devil and his demons rage, let evil men curse and spit! They are but dust.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

In other words because My God says so....

Or because the one and only true God says so, and when God commands we should do (or not do) according to his will.

 

[Teancum]

15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yeah, I don't either. 'Ain't nobody got time for that'.

I was just trying to figure out on what basis you were willing to assert that I and other professional historians, anthropologists, and linguists 'hardly' know anything.

I don't think i asserted that.

[Teancum]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Are you under the delusion that we think we are going to convince the people of the world en masse that we are right?

Not one whit.

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

To me its not homophobia but we should have sinphobia.  Being gay is not a sin but the homosexual lifestyle is and if the world mocks us that is fine.  As Nephi says that those who commit whoredoms and the scriptures would include homosexual acts as part of that will get thrust down to hell.  Better to be called a homophobe for a short time and gain eternal life than giving up and please the world for a few years and be risk damnation for eternity.  It is easy to stand for Christ when our views are popular but there is no test in that.  Standing for Christ when it is unpopular is what really earns our celestial rewards.

"Homophobia" is a rhetorical bludgeon. It is empty of meaning, and serves no other function than to marginalise those who are unable to support an immoralist position by argument.

It is most commonly used by those who display some degree of hagiophobia.

 

[Teancum]

15 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

You accept immoral activity as "good"- of course you are confused.

It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. It is only my job to speak truth, let the chips fall where they may.

As to the original point of the topic:

Bring it on! Why should I have to endure anything less than what the saints in former ages had to endure? I am ready for the ride! Let the devil and his demons rage, let evil men curse and spit! They are but dust.

More dogma and now a self created persecutions complex.

and you think I support an immoral activity?

 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

More dogma and now a self created persecutions complex.

and you think I support an immoral activity?

 

I am under no delusion that I am currently persecuted- but I know the time is coming- and I am not scared in the least.

Am I mistaken in believing that you support, as acceptable, homosexual sexual relations?

MODERATOR: Pretend you are thread banned until I figure out how to do it. Do the moralizing indictments in Sunday School.

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Let's see how long you go choosing to eat, drink or breathe.

Personally, I choose to do all of those things. Frequently.

But I admit that I'm not accustomed to think of breathing as a behaviour. Since people continue to breathe while asleep, unconscious or comatose, it hardly rises to the level of a behaviour.

 

[sunstoned]

53 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No because you think you have the true religion, that your scriptures are true.  And how your religion understands and explains them is correct and that your religion says so...Your God,

And guess what.   Applying that to you to Your family and other like believers is quite fine.  The LDS church has every right the preach away and even impose awful policy like it just did in my opinion.  Happily in the USA at least "because my God says so" is often not the way we make law.  But I would never tell the LDS church they cannot teach what they think God is saying about such things nor support anything that would stop them from doing such.

 

This is well spoken.  I believe most people, while maybe not approving, would agree that a private religious organization has the right to define it's own doctrine.   However, all bets are off when a private organization tries to push its beliefs on others through political and other means. 

[sunstoned]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Or because the one and only true God says so, and when God commands we should do (or not do) according to his will.

 

In others words, "because my god says so".   That is all you have, your belief.  Nothing wrong with it, if that is truly your North star, then follow it.  But don't be surprised or upset when others claim that their god is telling them something different.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

In others words, "because my god says so".   That is all you have, your belief.  Nothing wrong with it, if that is truly your North star, then follow it.  But don't be surprised or upset when others claim that their god is telling them something different.

All anyone has is their belief.  And others have every right to be completely wrong in theirs.

Belief doesn't change reality.   And when we stand before God we won't get to say, "Oh, I'm so sorry, I believed differently.  Oopsie, but it's all good right."

Especially if we knew the truth and rejected it.

 

[Teancum]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

All anyone has is their belief.  And others have every right to be completely wrong in theirs.

Belief doesn't change reality.   And when we stand before God we won't get to say, "Oh, I'm so sorry, I believed differently.  Oopsie, but it's all good right."

Especially if we knew the truth and rejected it.

 

Or when we act like we have the truth but really don't.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I don't think i asserted that.

I apologise for misreading you. Can you please clarify what you meant by your one-word rejoinder in this post?

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

You totally missed my point.

You're point requires others to deny reality for it to be accurate. No matter what you feel, no one is forced to do anything. Particularly not because of sexual feelings. You choose what you do. There is no point pretending otherwise.

[Maedros]

On 12/6/2015, 9:53:10, Rivers said:

I really love the church but it is feeling increasingly more difficult to be a member of the church these days.  I understand that church members have always been persecuted in the past.  But today things are different. We are now constantly being accused of being a harmful church. Labels such as homophobic, sexist, etc. get thrown at us a lot.  It causes me a lot of anxiety when so many negative feelings are being  expressed toward the church.  And I'm always being forced to evaluate the moral nature of the church organization.  I used to never question this sort of thing.  Being a Latter-Day Saint just isn't as comfortable as it used to be with the direction our society is going.  Is it possible to feel comfortable as a Mormon again or is this just part of bearing the cross?

I find the seemingly negative attention that the church is getting to be quite comforting because its toward issues that I feel strongly about; in my life I've had to argue my beliefs and stand firm from the time I was 15 years old to this very day, so I think I'm quite rigid in my support and defense of the faith against the jabs of non-believers. What I find very worrying and challenging is the way latter-day saints are changing and becoming more secular; I feel that we are joining-in in the practices of Babylon and are not holding on to the iron rod as firmly as we should; especially on important issues like the eternal laws and our traditional family values. Too many of us question and murmur, the world has infiltrated us and we are under attack from the inside out. Too many latter-days are losing their way, too many are falling by the wayside, too many are trading church indoctrination for secular indoctrination; there is really no middle ground; one way or another we all submit to indoctrination. I would rather submit to and be led by a prophet and apostles than to be deceived by the sophistries of Satan. Let us not forget that the war between good and evil rages on. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Maedros

[sjdawg]

21 hours ago, janderich said:

 

I left disappointed. Disappointed that our society cannot recognize homosexual behavior as a choice, and disappointed in almost the sure knowledge that I will have to face this again and again with people who will refuse to understand.

I don't want to hijack this thread but are you straight?   How do you understand homosexuality any better than others?  As a straight man I'm not certain I have any clear understanding of homosexuality but I do know I don't recall any point at which I "chose" to be straight.

[sjdawg]

15 hours ago, janderich said:

 

Exactly. Homosexual behavior has always been, and will always be, a choice. We are free to choose. Is it a difficult choice for some? Yes. But to pretend there is no choice is to deny the freedom that has been given us by our Father in Heaven. 

I think we have only seen a beginning to this type of lie. I believe soon other choices such as this will also be declared as unchangeable. As this progresses anyone who disagrees will be labeled a bigot  and yet such as not the case. 

I love the way straight people feel qualified to speak on the choice of homosexuality (or homosexual behavior if you prefer).  I know little about homosexuality but I do know that denying me a lifetime of straight partnership, companionship, and sex would feel like a death sentence to me.   My marriage is about much more than sex.   Yes, I know people who go without those relationships but I know very few people (gay or straight) who don't at least hope for those relationships in the future.  Gay people in the church have lost that hope.

[janderich]

1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

I love the way straight people feel qualified to speak on the choice of homosexuality (or homosexual behavior if you prefer).  I know little about homosexuality but I do know that denying me a lifetime of straight partnership, companionship, and sex would feel like a death sentence to me.   My marriage is about much more than sex.   Yes, I know people who go without those relationships but I know very few people (gay or straight) who don't at least hope for those relationships in the future.  Gay people in the church have lost that hope.

I have a perspective and just because I'm not gay does not mean I cannot share it. If only those entrenched in sin were allowed to share how they felt about their sin, we would be barraged by lies. Without the spirit of the Lord such people are lead astray into divers paths. For example, as we have discussed, many engaged in this sin would rather deny the freedom to choose their actions than face even the possibility that their actions will ultimately lead to unhappiness and misery.

Further, your comparisons are obviously extreme. If I was not married I would not feel like I was about to die. There are millions upon millions of people who are never married and yet find happiness. Such people have learned to not allow external circumstances to define their happiness or misery. 

Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. - Victor Frankl

Edited December 7, 2015 by janderich

[Maedros]

1 hour ago, janderich said:

I have a perspective and just because I'm not gay does not mean I cannot share it. If only those entrenched in sin were allowed to share how they felt about their sin, we would be barraged by lies. Without the spirit of the Lord such people are lead astray into divers paths. For example, as we have discussed, many engaged in this sin would rather deny the freedom to choose their actions than face even the possibility that their actions will ultimately lead to unhappiness and misery.

Further, your comparisons are obviously extreme. If I was not married I would not feel like I was about to die. There are millions upon millions of people who are never married and yet find happiness. Such people have learned to not allow external circumstances to define their happiness or misery. 

Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. - Victor Frankl

That's true; I have spent years in inactivity and during that time I was happy although I was breaking laws but I didn't care much what people thought - I just avoided the saints and wasted my years in riotous living; but like the prodigal son, when I came to myself I realized all that I did and all that I lost, I made my way back from the side of my shoes all the way to the sealing room - the truth is whether in this life or the next, the day of reckoning will/does come and in that day very few will be blameless. 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I love the way straight people feel qualified to speak on the choice of homosexuality (or homosexual behavior if you prefer).  I know little about homosexuality but I do know that denying me a lifetime of straight partnership, companionship, and sex would feel like a death sentence to me.   My marriage is about much more than sex.   Yes, I know people who go without those relationships but I know very few people (gay or straight) who don't at least hope for those relationships in the future.  Gay people in the church have lost that hope.

SJD, The choice about one's life, how you will or will not express your relational/sexual desires, etc isn't a choice that I have an absolute equivalent for. I'm not married and may never do so. I hope not and have reason for that hope, but the prospect of not having the opportunity would be sad, though it certainly wouldn't be a death sentence. Maybe because I've seen a whole lot of straight partnerships, companionships, and sex that were a heck of a lot of work. I'm missing out on potentially heightened joys, but i'm also missing out on potentially heightened pains as well. We're talking about marital partnerships like they're the only ones that bring meaning to our lives. They're one that brings a different and potent form of meaning, but there are still other relationships where meaning, as a single person, becomes very important. I have a close relationship with my best friends and their children and am their "life saver" when it comes to needing a person to watch their kids. I hold pertinent service relationships with my clients. My younger siblings adore me and I care and guide them a bunch. I've thought about it and if I got to an age I couldn't feasibly have kids (or fewer than I'd like) I would probably foster. Just because one relationship doesn't come doesn't mean that all meaning in life is lost. It means that meaning in life changes.

And though I don't have an absolute equivalent, it doesn't mean this isn't a (diffficult) choice....one that God may expect in discipleship. He's the God that expects fidelity to the Gospel, even unto death if needed. So proverbial deaths aren't out of the question. Paul uses the language of proverbial deaths almost every other chapter he wrote in the NT. They are hard and they entail pain, which is why those that make them I truly honor as living a life of commitment that I may never live fully to.

The ones I've met who have had to make that decision have some of the most beautiful and pure understandings of the atonement/Christ...one that couldn't have been made without coming to themselves, accepting who they are (including their relational desires), and then yielding to God all that they are....including their sexual and relational desires. I will not receive that unique relationship because I do not have that unique challenge. My own have given me a set of unique challenges/circumstances that have been made blessings in the Lord...and I learn/am blessed by the ones I've met and heard testimony from whose circumstances are different because their path entailed LGBT concerns.   

That said, different does not mean singular in experience. It doesn't mean exceptional to the Laws of God. It doesn't mean that there isn't still choice in their behaviors just because the choice is more difficult than we could imagine. It also doesn't mean that all meaning and all life ceases just because one's potential life trajectory changes. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited December 7, 2015 by BlueDreams

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

SJD, The choice about one's life, how you will or will not express your relational/sexual desires, etc isn't a choice that I have an absolute equivalent for. I'm not married and may never do so. I hope not and have reason for that hope, but the prospect of not having the opportunity would be sad, though it certainly wouldn't be a death sentence. Maybe because I've seen a whole lot of straight partnerships, companionships, and sex that were a heck of a lot of work. I'm missing out on potentially heightened joys, but i'm also missing out on potentially heightened pains as well. We're talking about marital partnerships like they're the only ones that bring meaning to our lives. They're one that brings a different and potent form of meaning, but there are still other relationships where meaning, as a single person, becomes very important. I have a close relationship with my best friends and their children and am their "life saver" when it comes to needing a person to watch their kids. I hold pertinent service relationships with my clients. My younger siblings adore me and I care and guide them a bunch. I've thought about it and if I got to an age I couldn't feasibly have kids (or fewer than I'd like) I would probably foster. Just because one relationship doesn't come doesn't mean that all meaning in life is lost. It means that meaning in life changes.

And though I don't have an absolute equivalent, it doesn't mean this isn't a (diffficult) choice....one that God may expect in discipleship. He's the God that expects fidelity to the Gospel, even unto death if needed. So proverbial deaths aren't out of the question. Paul uses the language of proverbial deaths almost every other chapter he wrote in the NT. They are hard and they entail pain, which is why those that make them I truly honor as living a life of commitment that I may never live fully to.

The ones I've met who have had to make that decision have some of the most beautiful and pure understandings of the atonement/Christ...one that couldn't have been made without coming to themselves, accepting who they are (including their relational desires), and then yielding to God all that they are....including their sexual and relational desires. I will not receive that unique relationship because I do not have that unique challenge. My own have given me a set of unique challenges/circumstances that have been made blessings in the Lord...and I learn/am blessed by the ones I've met and heard testimony from whose circumstances are different because their path entailed LGBT concerns.   

That said, different does not mean singular in experience. It doesn't mean exceptional to the Laws of God. It doesn't mean that there isn't still choice in their behaviors just because the choice is more difficult than we could imagine. It also doesn't mean that all meaning and all life ceases just because one's potential life trajectory changes. 

 

With luv,

BD

Thank you for a very thoughtful response

[Walden]

23 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Society is in constant flux, motion, and what society deems moral and acceptable changes all the time.

God's morality and law doesn't change and cannot change.

It is very uncomfortable to try and stand still on a moving platform, to try to remain upright in a gale force storm, and to try and stick immovable to a standard when everyone else is changing theirs.

"God's morality and law doesn't change," oh, how funny. Then the LDS church's changing stances on plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood. etc. must not have been part of God's morality/law?

[Rivers]

8 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I love the way straight people feel qualified to speak on the choice of homosexuality (or homosexual behavior if you prefer).  I know little about homosexuality but I do know that denying me a lifetime of straight partnership, companionship, and sex would feel like a death sentence to me.   My marriage is about much more than sex.   Yes, I know people who go without those relationships but I know very few people (gay or straight) who don't at least hope for those relationships in the future.  Gay people in the church have lost that hope.

Excellent thoughts.  I actually don't believe that having different views on sexuality, marriage, and family automatically equals bigotry.  But I suppose discussions on these topics have led me to evaluate my own level of compassion and empathy.  

[Gray]

I suspect it was a lot harder to be Mormon in the late 19th century than it is now.