BookofMormonLuvr Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 19 hours ago, BookofMormonLuvr said: I am under no delusion that I am currently persecuted- but I know the time is coming- and I am not scared in the least. Am I mistaken in believing that you support, as acceptable, homosexual sexual relations? MODERATOR: Pretend you are thread banned until I figure out how to do it. Do the moralizing indictments in Sunday School. Will do, Jefe. Although I don't honestly understand how my post in any different than the other posts in the topic.
Teancum Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I apologise for misreading you. Can you please clarify what you meant by your one-word rejoinder in this post? Not sure. If you have info you think is worth looking at please post and I will try to take a look.
JLHPROF Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 9 hours ago, Walden said: "God's morality and law doesn't change," oh, how funny. Then the LDS church's changing stances on plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood. etc. must not have been part of God's morality/law? - Plural marriage has never been described as immoral, nor has the law been disavowed. It was revoked, for the time being. - Blacks and the priesthood - we still know of no law or revelation from God that created the ban. Perhaps their never was and God corrected our morality laws. Oh, and once again, I said GOD'S morality and law doesn't change, not the Church. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: - Plural marriage has never been described as immoral, nor has the law been disavowed. It was revoked, for the time being. - Blacks and the priesthood - we still know of no law or revelation from God that created the ban. Perhaps their never was and God corrected our morality laws. Oh, and once again, I said GOD'S morality and law doesn't change, not the Church. It's not obvious to me that the former Priesthood ban was ever considered to be a moral issue. 1
Zakuska Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Just now, JLHPROF said: - Plural marriage has never been described as immoral, nor has the law been disavowed. It was revoked, for the time being. - Blacks and the priesthood - we still know of no law or revelation from God that created the ban. Perhaps their never was and God corrected our morality laws. Oh, and once again, I said GOD'S morality and law doesn't change, not the Church. Huh? Its been called worse than "immoral", by God himself. jacob 2 24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was cabominable before me, saith the Lord Edited December 8, 2015 by Zakuska 1
JLHPROF Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 4 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Huh? Its been called worse than "immoral", by God himself. jacob 2 24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was cabominable before me, saith the Lord Again, that is NOT polygamy, it is the sinful way David and Solomon lived polygamy. If it was polygamy that was abominable he probably would have said Abraham and Jacob, more significant names to Israelites everywhere, not to mention their actual polygamous ancestors. 1
Zakuska Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Again, that is NOT polygamy, it is the sinful way David and Solomon lived polygamy. If it was polygamy that was abominable he probably would have said Abraham and Jacob, more significant names to Israelites everywhere, not to mention their actual polygamous ancestors. Your argument might hold water if... he had not continued... 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. Andbwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes God condemened all polygamy in the old world as an abomination. Edited December 8, 2015 by Zakuska
JLHPROF Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Your argument might hold water if... he had not continued... 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. Andbwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes God condemened all polygamy in the old world as an abomination. No God condemned living polygamy like "them of old" that he had previously named - Solomon and David. And he banned it among the people in Jacob's day because they were doing the same things - committing whoredoms, stealing wives and concubines, and multiplying wives as property beyond any sense of relationship. God has NEVER called polygamy an abomination as a practice, only unrighteous polygamy. He never condemned the practice when lived by good men like Abraham and Jacob. Just as money is not evil, but love of money is the root of all evil. Edited December 8, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
Russell C McGregor Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 8 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Your argument might hold water if... he had not continued... 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. Andbwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes God condemened all polygamy in the old world as an abomination. God unambiguously condemned all homosexual acts as abominations, but you have no trouble explaining that away. However, Jacob 2 isn't quite as unambiguous. You see, the punctuation is not part of the inspired text; it was supplied by the printer. And if we punctuate verse 24 a little better, it only denounces concubines.
Zakuska Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) Amatures... if you want to prove Polygamy came from God... Might I suggest Apostle Orson Pratt. The seer pg 168-173 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. 153 But can a man love more than one wife with all his heart ? Yes ; he can love each one that God gives him with all his heart ; and if he have a hun- dred, he can love them all with the same intensity that he would love one. It is true, he could not give the same attention to a hundred that he could to one ; this would not arise from the want of love, but it would be from the nature of the circumstances. If a man have a dozen children, he can love each one of them as much as he loves one ; but he cannot pay the same attention to a plurality of children as he could to one; it is not because his love is divided or weakened by the numbers, but it is because of the circumstances. If God had given a man but one wife, it would be his duty to love her with all his heart ; and it would not be his privilege to love any other woman as a. wife. But if God confers a plurality of wives upon a man, it would be sin- ful for him not to love each one with a perfect love, provided that they were all equally worthy of his love. God loves the children of men according to their works, or according to the good qualities which He perceives in them : those who do the best he loves the best : if they do equally well, He loves them equally. Man should be exercised with tin' same principle ; he should judge in righteousness of the good qualities and desires of his family, and should love those the best who do the best. And if any of his family err, he should still love them the same as God loves his family, though they may sometimes err and go estray. God loves his fam- ily, not for their errors and sins, but because He sees that there are good qualities existing in them, and trys to save them from their sins; so man should love his wives, not because of their errors and imperfections, but be- cause God has given them to him, and because they, in the main, desire to do right ; therefore, he should love them and try to save them from their errors ; and he should never love one. more than another, unless they merit it. As the man stands at the head of the family, it is his duty to seek dili- gently for wisdom, to know how to govern his family according to the will of God. Circumstances may some- times be such that he may bestow his attentions for a time more abundantly upon certain portions of his family than upon others ; this may arise, not from any partiality or superior love which he has for one above that of another, but his judgment or the surrounding circumstances may dictate this to be the wisest course. At another -time, he may, perhaps, reverse his attentions, and be apparently partial towards those whom he had seemed for a while to neglect. In all these thing's, a husband should be guided by his own judgment, enlightened by the Spirit of Truth. And in these things he should have no rigid fixed laws, tmalterable, like those of the Medes and Persians. So far as the great principles of righteous- ness are concerned, he should be fixed and immovable ; but, in regard to his conduct in his temporal affairs, and in his domestic concerns, he should pre- scribe no rules that will compel him to act invariably in a certain way : this should be left for circumstances and the wisdom he has, to dictate and con- trol ; and both wives and children should be perfectly satisfied to have the head of the family be in reality the head, and do as seemeth to him good ; and, as we have already stated, if the head of the family errs in some respects, it is better to yield to his will than to arise in rebellion against the order of family government which God has established. If too much partiality be used, and any flagrant violations of the principles of right occur, there are other authorities who can regulate the husband ; for this is not the province of the wives and children ; it is not for them to dictate to the head, but to pray for and administer to the head, that, perad venture, through their kind- ness and meekness, and willing obe- dience, the head may be influenced to do right. Mutual love should exist between a husband and his wives ; for, without this, God's order of family government cannot be maintained. But can several wives love one and the same man as their husband ? Yes, if he treat them in a way to merit their 154 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. confidence and love. There is no more difficulty in several women loving one husband than there is in several per- sons loving our Lord and Saviour. God is the Author of sexual or conjugal love, the same as He is of all other kinds of pure love ; and if He unites several women to one man in the sa- cred bonds of matrimony, it is their duty to cultivate and increase the heavenly principle of pure love to their husband, until they love him with all their hearts, even as they love God ; and he should love them in return, even as he loves God. There is no evil in love ; but there is much evil resulting from the want of love. No woman should be united in marriage with a man unless she have some love for him ; and if she love him in a small degree, this is capable of being in- creased to perfection. Any woman who loves righteousness can and does love a man who works righteousness ; and she can, by cultivating this love, be happy in his society, as a friend and as a brother ; and if she were united to him in marriage, she could love him as a husband ; and if he were worthy, her love towards him may be increased until the perfect day. So it is with man. There is not a righteous good woman in the Church of God but what a righteous man loves as a friend and a sister; and if he were lawfully united to her in marriage, he could love her as a wife ; and this love, by cultiva- tion and mutual kindness, would grow stronger and stronger, until they were perfected in love. But cannot a woman love many men as well as for a man to love many wives ? We answer, that love is under the con- trol of both the sexes ; they are agents in the cultivation and exercise of this affection, as in the cultivation and ex- ercise of all the other attributes of their nature. A man has no right to love any woman as a wife unless God shall give her to him in marriage ; he has power, as an agent, to limit his love where God limits it ; and if he go beyond those limits he transgresses. So likewise a woman is limited by the law of God to one husband ; and she has no right to suffer her love to a;o beyond those limits. Her love is un- der the control of her agency, and it must be confined where the law of God confines it, otherwise there is transgres- sion. A man loves many wives be- cause God gives him many ; and he is required to love them, or become a transgressor. If God required a woman to have many husbands, or permitted her to have a plurality, it would then be her duty to cultivate the principle of love towards them all; but this would not be an easy task, unless the woman were ntade the head of the family ; for one cannot serve two mas- ters. And, as the husband stands as the master of the house, if a woman had two husbands or masters, she would be sure, according to the words of Christ, "to hate the one and love the other," for no one can love and serve two masters ; but two can love one master ; yes, a hundred wives can love one master or husband, for he is their head, even as Christ is the great Master and Head of the Church. As Christ is one, and is the Great Bride- groom, being married unto many, so likewise the man, being one husband, one bridegroom, may be married unto many. As the bride of Christ con- sists of a plurality of persons, so the bride of each of his faithful servants may consist of a plurality of individu- als. The bride of Christ, though a plurality of persons, should be one in spirit, in love, and in good works ; so likewise the bride of each of his ser- vants, however many persons, should be perfectly one in their love and union of spirit. What can be more heavenly and God-like than to see a well regulated family, governed in wisdom and right- eousness ! It is the commencement of heaven on earth ! — it is an organization destined to be eternal ! The first born is represented in Scripture as the be- ginning of one's strength ; how much greater will be his strength when he has a great number of wives and chil- dren ! A foundation is then laid for a patriarchal kingdom, which shall in- crease in numbers without end, over which he will reign forever. How great reason has such a man to rejoice ! CFXESTIAL MARRIAGE. 155 How thankful ought lie to be for the wives which God has given him, through whom he can multiply his seed as the stars of heaven ! What joy and happiness it must give him to love so numerous a family, and to know that he is loved by them in return ! Love is a principle, like knowledge, which can be imparted without dimin- ishing the fountain from which it ema- nates. Love, in other words, begets love. We love that which is congenial to our minds ; if we love purity and virtue in ourselves, we will love them in others ; and when it is known by others that we love them, because of their virtue and goodness, they will love us for like reasons ; thus love, when founded upon true principle, is reciprocal. Virtue loveth virtue, truth embraceth truth, knowledge cleaveth unto knowledge ; every good and heavenly attribute of our own nature Ave love when we see the same mani- fested by other beings. We love these virtues in either men or women. Sex- ual love, without the accompanying virtues, is not to be indulged, as it leads to evil. God has ordained that pure and virtuous love should be incorpor- ated with sexual love ; that, by the combination of the two, permanent unions in the marriage covenant may be formed, and the species be multi- plied in righteousness. Pure and vir- tuous love should always exist between a husband and each of his wives, as well as sexual love : this will have a tendency to impress more permanently mind these heavenly principles upon the and constitution of the offspring; for the offspring will partake, in a greater or less degree, of the propensities and affections of the parents. How care- ful, then, ought the parents to be, lest they impress a disposition and tend- ency in the offspring that are calcu- lated, if not strongly guarded, to ruin and destroy them as they grow up to act for themselves. God will hold parents accountable for these things, because they are principles over which the} r , as agents, have control. Every good principle which you would have your children inherit, should be pre- dominant and reigu in your own bos- oms ; for, though the spirits are pure and heavenly when they enter the in- fant tabernacle, yet they are extremely susceptible of influences either for good or for bad. The state of the parents' minds at the time of conception, and the state of the mother's mind during her pregnancy, will be constitutionally impressed upon the offspring, bringing with it consequences which, in a de- gree, have a bearing upon the future destiny of the child. Love, with all the other virtues, should predominate in the bosoms of parents, in order that the same virtues may be inherited by the children. They should be infused into the very consti- tution of the child when in embryo ; they should be instilled into the mind from infancy to manhood, that they may become incorporated as fixed and immovable principles in the mind of man, governing and controlling all the future actions of his life. In such children parents will have joy : they will be the strength of their patriarchal government; the honor and crow iw of their old age ; their hope and glory in the resurrection ; their foundation of an endless increase of kingdoms over whom they will reigu forever, and with whom they will be associated as God's throughout the endless ages of eternhy. Instead of a plurality of wives being a cause of sorrow to females, it is one of the greatest blessings of the last dispensation : it gives them the great privilege of beino- united to a right- eons man, and of rearing a family ac- cording to the order of heaven. In- stead of being compelled to remain single, or marry a wicked man who will ruin her and her oft'spring, she can enter a family where peace and salvation reign; where righteousness abounds ; where the head of the fam- ily stands forth as a patriarch, a prince, and a saviour to his whole household ; where blessings unspeakable and eter- nal are sealed upon them and their generations after them; her glory is eternal and her joy is full. Rejoice, then, ye daughters of Zion, that you live in this glorious era ! Rejoice for yourselves and for your generations, because of the high honors and privi- 156 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. legos conferred upon you ! Rejoice that you have entered into blessings which have been withheld for many ages past because of wickedness ! Re- joice and sing for gladness of heart in the glorious prospects which open be- fore you ! Rejoice in the mountains and dales of Utah ! for it is the land of your freedom, where the iron yoke of Romish and Protestant superstitions will be broken from your necks ; where you will have the privilege of uniting your eternal destiny with the man of your choice ; where virtue will reign triumphant, and the vile seducer be unknown ; where confidence shall wax stronger and stronger, being cemented by the love of God ! Happy are the daughters of Zion ! They would not exchange their condition with the queens of the earth ! Worldly honors and worldly riches are not worthy to be compared with the blessings that they enjoy ! They love their husbands, and their husbands love them ; and this love is far greater than the love which dwells in the hearts of the wicked. The children of Zion love in proportion to the heavenly knowl- edge which they have received ; for love keeps pace with knowledge, and as the one increases so does the other ; and when knowledge is perfected, love will be perfected also. The wicked are not capable of loving in as great a degree as the righteous, because they are destitute of the knowledge of God, and do not appreciate wives or chil- dren as they ought. They do not fully realize the end and purpose of of the Almighty in joining the sexes in holy matrimony ; and without a knowledge of these things they can- not love as the righteous ; for love is of God, and they who live nearest to the Lord will love most ; and they who love most will be the most happy. If we should inquire what consti- tutes the misery of the fallen angels, the answer would be, they are desti- tute of love ; they have ceased to love God ; they have ceased to have pure love one towards another ; they have ceased to love that which is good. Hatred, malice, revenge, and every evil passion have usurped the place of love ; and unhappiness, wretchedness, and misery, are the results. Where there is no love, there will be no desire to promote the welfare of others. In- stead of desiring that others may be happy, each desires to make all others miserable like himself; each seeks to gratify that hellish disposition against the Almighty which arises from his extreme hatred of that Avhich is good. For the want of love the torment of each is complete. All the wicked who are entirely overcome by these ma- licious spirits will have the heavenly principle of love wholly irradicated from their minds, and they will become angels to these infernal fiends, being captivated by them, and compelled to act as they act. They cannot extri- cate themselves from their power, nor ward off the fiery darts of their ma- licious tormentors. Such will be the condition of all beings who entirely withdraw themselves from the love of God. As love decreases, wickedness, hatred, and misery increases ; and the more wicked individuals or nations be- come, the less capable are they of lov- ing others and making them happy ; and vice versa, the more righteous a people become the more they are quali- fied for loving others and rendering them happy. A wicked man can have but little love for his wife ; while a righteous man, being filled with the love of God, is sure to manifest this heavenly attribute in every thought and feeling of his heart, and in every word and deed. Love, joy, and inno- cence will radiate from his very counte- nance, and be expressed in every look. This will beget confidence in the wife of his bosom, and she will love him in return; for love begets love; hap- piness imparts happiness ; and these heaven-born emotions will continue to increase more and more, until they are perfected and glorified in all the ful- ness of eternal love itself. Could wicked and malicious beings, who have irradicated every feeling of love from their bosoms, be permitted to propagate their species, the offspring would partake of all the evil, wicked, and malicious nature of their parents. However pure the spirits might be, CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. 157 ■when permitted to enter such degraded tabernacles, yet, being extremely sus- ceptible to influences, they ■would speedily partake of all the evil nature "which characterized the spirits of the father and mother : thus they would soon become devils incarnated in flesh and bones. Such would be the dread- ful consequences of offspring, brought into existence by parents destitute of the principles of love, like the fallen angels. The same consequences, to a certain degree, would result from the multiplication of wicked parents. In proportion as the pure love of God is irradiated from their hearts, the un- holy passions take the place thereof, and the offspring partake of these un- lovely principles which are engendered in the nature and constitution of the infant tabernacle, and begin to act upon the pure spirit that takes up its abode therein, forming, modifying, and and bending, in a great measure, its inclinations, until, by the time that it grows up to know good from evil, it becomes prepared to plunge headlong into all the vices of its ungodly pa- rents : thus the parents, for the want of that holy and pure affection which exists in the bosom of the righteous, not only destroy their own happiness, but impress their own degraded and unlovely passions upon the constitu- tion of their offspring. It is for this reason that God will not permit the fallen angels to multiply : it is for this reason that God has ordained marri- ages for the righteous only : it is for this reason that God will put a final stop to the multiplication of the wick- ed after this life,, it is for this reason that none but those who have kept the celestial law will be permitted to multiply after the resurrection : it is for this reason that God has ordained that the righteous shall have a plural- ity of wives ; for they alone are pre- pared to beget and bring forth offspring whose bodies and spirits, partaking of the nature of the parents, are pure and lovely, and will manifest, as they in- crease In years, those heaven-born ex- cellencies so necessary to lead them to happiness and eternal life. 7*. The Celestial male and female, after the resurrection, will be perfected in knowledge, and in holiness, and in pure affection and love: they will know as God knows ; be pure as He is pure, and love as He loves: their knowledge, their purity, and their af- fections, before their celestial glorifica- tion, will increase alike, and keep pace with each other, until they are per- fected, when they will enjoy in fulness every attribute and affection which God himself enjoys, and will be like Him in all these tilings. Then, and not till then, will they be permitted to propagate that higher order of beings called spirits. As the character of parents in this life is impressed, in a great measure, upon their children, so likewise the character of the celestial parents will be incorporated in the very being of their spirit offspring. The unorganized spirit-matter will not only take the form or image of the celestial parents, but every particle thereof will begin to develope the germs of all those eternal attributes which dwell in all their fulness in both father and mother. If beings who are not perfected should have the privilege of propa- gating a spirit offspring, they could not impress the organized spirit em- bryo with the elements of those higher attributes which appertain to the celes- tial ; and, consequently, if the germ of the infant spirit were conceived and fashioned in imperfection, the super- structure or infant spirit itself could never advance to perfection. The eter- nal attributes must be properly devel- oped, in order that they may be prop- erly perfected ; this is the reason why none but those who attain to the ful- ness of celestial glory, and become God's, will be entrusted with wives, and with power to propagate sons and daughters ; that this, the most import- ant of all things — the organizatian of immortal spirits, may be brought about through the highest, and most exalted, and most glorious personages in the universe, that they may infuse into the very constitution of their beloved chil- dren the germs of all the great, and 158 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. pure, and sublime attributes which are perfected in all their fulness in them- selves. If none but Gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it fol- lows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according- to the flesh. Hence, the Father saith concerning him, " Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." We are informed in the first chapter of Luke, that Mary was chosen by the Father as a choice virgin, through whom He begat Jesus. The angel said unto the Virgin Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Llighest shall overshadow thee : therefore, also, that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." After the power of the Highest had' overshadowed Mary, and she had by that means conceived, she related the circumstance to her cousin Elizabeth in the following words : '• He that is Mighty hath done to me great things ; and holy is His name 1 " It seems from this relation that the Holy Ghost ac- companied "the Highest" when He overshadowed the Virgin Mary and begat Jesus ; and from this circum- stance some have supposed that the body of Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost without the instrumental- ity of the immediate presence of the Father. There is no doubt that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary to sanc- tify her, and make her holy, and pre- pare her to endure the glorious presence of "the Highest," that when "He" should "overshadow" her she might conceive, being filled with the Holy Ghost ; henee the angel said, as re- corded in Matthew, "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost;" that is, the Holy Ghost gave her strength to abide the presence of the Father without being consumed ; but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus ; and for this reason Jesus is called "the Only Begotten of the Father;" that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters whom He beo-at before the foundation of this world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones ; whereas, both the sjurit and body, of Jesus were begotten by the Father — the spirit having been begotten in heaven many ages before the tabernacle was begotten upon the earth. The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. There- fore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife ; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father : we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlaw fulh'. It would have been un- lawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph ; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most per- fect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure : He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Marvin the capacity of. a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another ; for the law which lie gave to govern men and women was not intended to gov- ern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after having thus dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her es- poused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the Avife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity. As God the Father begat the fleshly body of Jesus, so He, before the world began, begat his spirit. As the body required an earthly Mother, so his CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. 159 spirit required a heavenly Mother. As God 'associated in the capacity of a husband with the earthly mother, so likewise He associated in the same ca- pacity with the heavenly one. Earthly things being in the likeness of heavenly things; and that which is temporal being in the likeness of that which is eternal ; or, in other words, the laws of generation upon the earth are after the order of the laws of generation in heaven. But if we have a heavenly Mother as well as a heavenly Father, is it not right that we should worship the Mother of our spirits as well as the Father \ No ; for the Father of our spirits is at the head of His household, and His wives and children are re- quired to yield the most perfect obe- dience to their great Head. It is law- ful for the children to worship the King of Heaven, but not the "Queen of heaven." The children of Israel were severely reproved for making offerings to the " Queen of heaven." Although she is highly exalted and honored as the beloved bride of the great King, yet the children, so far as we are in- formed, have never been commanded to pray to her or worship her. Jesus prayed to His Father, and taught His disciples to do likewise ; but we are nowhere taught that Jesus prayed to His heavenly Mother : neither did he pray to the Holy Ghost as his Father. If He were begotten by the Holy Ghost, then He would have called him His Father ; but, instead of doing so, the Holy Ghost himself was subject unto Jesus ; and He had power to send him as His minister after he returned to his Father. Next let us enquire whether there are any intimations in Scripture' con- cerning the wives of Jesus. We have already, in the 9th No. of this volume, spoken of the endless increase of Christ's government. Now, we have no reason to suppose that this increase would continue, unless through the laws of generation, whereby Jesus, like His Father, should become the Father of spirits ; and, in order to be- come the Father of spirits, or, as Isaiah says, " The Everlasting Father," it is necessary that He should have one or more wives by whom lie could multi- ply His seed, not for any limited period of time, but forever and ever : thus He truly would he a Father everlasti n ghj, according to the name which was to be given Him. The Evangelists do not particularly speak of the marriage of Jesus; but this is not to be wondered at, for St. John says : " There are also many other things which Jesus did, iln' which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." (John 21 : 25.) One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly \o\ ed Jesus — such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much ; and when He arose from the dead, instead of first showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them — namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these be- loved women were his wives. Indeed, the Psalmist, David, prophesies in particular concerning the Wives of the Son of God. We quote from the Eng- lish version of the Bible, translated about three hundred and fifty years ago : " All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia : when thou contest out of the ivory palaces, inhere they have made thee glad, Kings' 1 daughters were among thine honorable WIVES : upon thy right hand did stand the QUEEN in a vesture of gold of Ophir? (Psalm 45:8, 9.) That this passage has express reference to the Son of God and His Wives, will be seen by reading' the sixth and sev- enth verses which are as follows : "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever : the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteous- ness, and hatest wickedness : therefore God, thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." This Being:, whom the Psalm- 160 NOTICE. ist here calls God, is represented in the [ orahle Wives." King James' transla- next verses as having- "honorable Wives," If any should still doubt whether this prophecy has reference to the Son of God, they may satisfy themselves by reading Paul's applica- tion of these passages in the eighth and ninth verses of the first chapter of his epistle to the Hebrews : " But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, God, is forever and ever ; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteous- ness and hated iniquity ; therefore God, even thy God, hath annointed thee ■with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Paul applies the words of the prophet David to the son of God, to the annointed Messiah, who is called God, and whose "throne is forever and ever." Let it be remem- bered, then, that the Son of God is expressly represented as having " hon- tors were not willing that this passage should have a literal translation, ac- cording to the former English render- ing, lest it should give countenance to Polygamy ; therefore they altered the translation to honorable women instead of wives; but any person acquainted with the original can see that the first translators have given the true render- ing of that passage. Indeed, the very next sentence most clearly demon- strates this ; for the Son of God is represented as having a "QUEEN" standing upon His right hand, clothed " in a vesture of gold." This Queen is exhorted in the followino; endearing; language ; " Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear ; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house ; so shall the King greatly de- sire thy beauty, for he is thy Lord ; and worship thou Him." (Verses 10, 11.) {To be continued.) CELESTIAL MARRIAGE (Continued.) Notwithstanding the Queen is num- bered among the "honorable Wives" of the Son of God, yet she is called upon to Worship Him as her Lord. If her husband were a mere man, she would not be exhorted to Worship him ; this therefore, is another evi- dence that He was truly, as Paul says, the S.iii of God. Inasmuch as the Messiah was to have a "plurality of Wives" will they not all be Queens ? Yes : but there will be an order among them. One seems to be chosen to stand at his right hand : Perhaps she may have merited that high station by her righteous acts, or by the position she had previ- ously occupied. It seems that she was one of the daughters of a king : for in the same Psalm it says, "The king's daughter is all glorious within : her clothing is of wrought gold. She shall be brought unto the King in rai- mant of needle work : the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto Thee. With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought : they shall enter into the King's pal- ace." (verses 13-15.) It must be re- collected that " kings' daughters were among Thine honorable Wives." The kings here spoken of were no doubt those who through obedience to the gospel became kings and priests for ever : for we cannot suppose that Christ would marry the daughters of the kings of this world who only reign under the pretended name of kings for this short life : such are not worthy to be called kings. Some of the daughters of those kings who are to reign on the earth for ever and ever, and who are in reality kings, will be among His "honorable wives," one being chosen to stand as Queen at His right hand and worship Him, unto whom is made the following promise: "Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make Princes in all the earth. I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations : therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever." (verses 16, 17.) We are not informed at what time Jesus was to be married to this king's daughter or to any of the rest of His wives. But from what John the Bap- tist says, He may have been married to some of them previous to that proph- ets martyrdom : The passage is as fol- lows ; " He that hath the Bride is the Bridegroom : but the friend of the Bridegroom, which standeth and hear- eth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the Bridegroom's voice : this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease." (John 3 : 29, 30.) And again, " Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as lono- as the Bridegroom is with them \ but the days will come, when the Bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast." (Ma- thew 9 : 15.) John represents Jesus as already in the possession of the Bride; while the Saviour confirms 170 CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. what John says, by calling- Himself " the Bridegroom" and the disciples "the children of the Bridechamber," but who the Bride was neither of them informs us. Whether Jesus had mar- ried any of His wives at that time or not, it is very evident that there will be a marriage of the Son of God at the time of His second coming: for Jesus said, " The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the welding : and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold I have prepared my dinner : my oxen and fallings are killed, and all things are ready : come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise : and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, lie was wroth : and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find bid them to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered to- gether all as many as they found, both bad and good : and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wed- ding garment : and he saith unto him, Friend how earnest thou in hither not having a wedding garment I And he was speechless. Then said the king to his servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away ami east him into outer darkness ; there si all be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22: 1-14.) All will admit that the king's son, here spoken of, is Jesus Christ, and that the last servants who are sent forth have a commission to gather together from the high aj and hedges both bad and good : and that by this gathering, " the wedding was furnished with guests." The Bridegroom, the servants, and the guests are all mentioned ; but the parable does not inform us who the Bride is. John the Revelator des- cribes the greatness, the glory, and the magnificence of this marriage cel- ebration. He says, " And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia : for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad, and rejoice and give honor to him : for the Marriage of the Lamb is come, and His Wife hath made herself rea- dy. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white : for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage sup- per of the Lamb." (Rev. 19:^6-9.) That the wife was to be a very good and holy woman, is very clearly indi- cated by her being clothed with " the righteousness of the saints." compared to fine linen, clean and white. Her rai- ment is more fully described in the Psalm already epioted, being composed of fine needle work of wrought gold, while many virgins were to be her attendants. That the Bride will continue to be the Wife of the Son of God in Eternity as well as time, is most clearly revealed in the twenty-first chapter of the Rev- elations, where St. John beheld the New Earth, and the angel said unto him, " Come hither, I will shew thee the Bride, the Lamb's Wife ;" and he was carried in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and saw a great city called the holy Jerusalem, descending from the heavens upon the New Earth. This city contained the throne of God and the Lamb, and was inhabited by a great nation of kings who were to " reign for ever and ever" being Gods, as is evident from the name of God being written on each of their fore- heads. The inscription upon their foreheads was not intended as a mere sham or mockery, but was in reality the name given to each, that all the inhabitants of eternity, when they saw CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. 171 GOD conspicuously inscribed upon all their foreheads, might know most as- suredly that each one was a God, as the written title or name expressly declar- ed. The grandeur and glory of this city are still further described ; the ci- ty and the streets thereof were of pure gold, clear as glass, while the walls and the gates were of the most pre- cious stones ; and the glory of God en- lightened the city, so that they had no need of the light of the sun or moon. This light was so great that all the na- tions that were saved that dwelt upon all the face of the New Earth, walked in the light of it. There was no night there, but the whole Earth was clothed in one eternal day. It was in the midst of this city that the King of kings and Lord of lords sat upon His throne, while upon His "right hand did stand the Queen,"- ar- rayed in the most costly apparel. In order that John might see the glory of God, the glory of His kingdom, and the glory of His Bride, it was necesary to show him, the Palace, the place of the Throne, and the city in which the Bride resided. It is expressly said, concerning this Queen, that her name should be remembered in all genera- tions, and that the people should praise her for ever and ever, (Psalm 45 : 17.) As John saw in vision the Bride, the Lamb's Wire more than a thousand years after her marriage — after she and all the rest of the inhabitants of the earth had been raised from the dead and become immortal — it is quite cer- tain that she was in reality a Wife af- ter the resurrection as well as before, and that she will be the Lamb's Wife forever and ever ; and in that capacity she will, as the Psalmist has said, be respected and praised by all the jteo- ple for ever and ever. That the marriage will be celebra- ted at the second coming of the Mes- siah, is also clearly expressed in the parable of the ten Virgins : for Jesus said, " Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten Virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the Bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them : but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the Bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the Bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him. Then all those Virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil ; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so ; lest there be not enough for us and you : but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the Bridegroom came ; and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage : and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saving, Lord, Lord, open to us. But He answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of Man cometh." (Mathew 25 : 1-13.) This parable, like that of the marriage of the King's son which we have al- ready quoted, plainly shows that there will be a gathering out from among the nations — a going forth to meet the Bridegroom; but among those who gather, there will be some with- out a weddiug garment — without oil in their lamps. But the five wise vir- gins who are ready, will go in with the Bridegroom to the marriage, and the door will be shut. And here let us ask the following questions : Are these five wise virgins, to be married unto the Bridegroom, or are they only the invited guests ? And if they are guests who constitutes the Bride ? In the parable of the marriage of the King's son, it is said, " And the wed- ding was furnished with guests ; " the guests being those who received the invitation of the servants and gath- ered together. If the five wise virgins constitute the guests, then the Bride must be some wise holy virgin, chosen to be the royal consort or Queen. On the other hand, if the five wise virgins represent all the saints, both male and female, and if they all constitute the Bride, then where will the guests come from, or who will they be .' Again, if CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. the five virgins are actually virgins or females who are to be married to the Bridegroom, then all the rest of the saints would constitute the guests. Are not these five wise virgins the " honorable Wives" which the Psalm- ist represents the Son of God as hav- ing taken from among king's daughters? From the passage in the forty-fifth Psalm, it will be seen that the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion, was a Polygaraist, as well as the Patriarch Jacob and the prophet David from whom He descen- ded according to the flesh. Paul says concerning Jesus, " Verily he took not on him the nature of angels ; but he took on him the seed of Abraham." (Heb. 2 : 16.) Abraham the Polygamist, being a friend of God, the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed ; and by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future gen- erations that he approbated the plu- rality of Wives under the Christian dispensation, as well as under the dis- pensations in which His Polygamist ancestors liv r ed. We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Je- sus, as His Only Begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the ex- ample of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable Wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time ; and that God the Father has already begotten many thousand millions of sons and daughters and sent them into this world to take tabernacles; and that God the Son has the promise that " of the increase of his government there shall be no end ;" it being express- ly declared that the children of one of His Qus is should be made Princes in all the earth. (See Psalm 45: 16.) Jesus says there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13 : 28.) There are many in this generation so pious that they would consider themselves greatly dis- graced to be obliged to associate with a man having a plurality of wives ; would it not be well for such to desire a place separate from the kingdom of God, that they may not be contamina- ted with the society of these old Po- lygamists ? And then it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, and visiting one another, and conversing about their numerous children and their kingdoms. Oh, ye delicate ladies of Christendom, how can you endure such a scene as this ? Oh, what will you do, when you behold on the very gates of the holy Jerusa- lem the names of the Twelve sons of the four wives of the Polygamist Jacob ? If you do not want your morals cor- rupted, and your delicate ears shocked, and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the holy Jerusalem, nor come near the New Earth; for Polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom. Peter says, Likewise ye wives be in subjection to your own husbands, * *. * * even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord : whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well." (1 Peter 3: 1, 6.) The females in the first age of Christianity considered it a great honor to become the daughters of Abraham, but now thev have become so righteous that they think it a disgrace to be found in the society of a Polygamist ; and no doubt they would think their char- acters ruined for ever, if any one should be so immodest as to call them the daughters of the Polygamist Abraham. But we will tell them how to avoid this deep disgrace ; they can cease to do well ; for Peter says that it is only on CELESTIAL MARRIAGE. 173 this condition that they become the daughters of Abraham. It will be ne- cessary for you to reject Christianity and not obey the gospel ; for in so doing you might very much endanger your rep- utation by becoming the daughters of that noted Polygamist. To become the daughters of a Polygamist by voluntarily embracing Christianity would be at once sanctioning father Abraham's deeds. Only think how awfully shocking it would be, to have your neighbors point the finger of scorn at you, and say, " There goes a daugh- ter of Abraham — she has been adopt- ed into the family of that old Polyga- mist — she must be a very immodest woman to want to get into his family," among his wives and concubines — who would have ever thought, that she would have embraced the faith of Abraham, and thus consent to be adopt- ed as one of his daughters, when she very well knew his character ! what a disgrace ! I wonder if she will not want to go and sit down with her adopted father and with all his wives in the kingdom of God. I dare say she will ; for there is no telling how far Christianity will lead them, when they get so far gone as to be adopted into Abraham's family. The doctrine that she has embraced tells her that many shall come from the east, and from the Avest, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down with Abra- ham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God. O how shameful ! I wonder why the law dont put a stop to Chris- tianity when it produces such an im- moral influence as to cause so many not only to be adopted into these dis- graceful families, but to pretend that such characters are going to be in the kingdom of God, and that all their adopted children will go there too. She not only disgraces herself by com- ing into such a family, but according to her doctrine she will have to associ- ate with beggars, for her book says, that the angels laid hold of a poor beggar named Lazarus and carried him off to Abraham's bosom. Oh what a family ! Polygamists and beggars all together ! and that poor silly woman is one of his daughters, and expects when she dies to be carried to his bosom al- so. I wonder if there will not be some great gulf or some other barrier to keep such disgraceful characters from intruding upon the society and cor- rupting the morals of the good pious people who die in the nineteenth cen- tury ! I wonder if the angels will have the impudence to drag us away as soon as we die to the bosom of such a no- ted Polygamist as Abraham !" If you do not want to suffer such deep dis- grace, you must keep out of Abraham's family by neglecting the Gospel; and when you die, the angels will not trou- ble you with his society, but there will be a great gulf intervening between you and his family over w T hich there will be no passage. Inasmuch as the saints in Utah con- sider it moral, virtuous, and scriptural, to practice the plurality system, they .should seek by every means to Eradi- cate, not only from their own minds, but from the minds of their children, every erroneous improper prejudice which they have formerly imbibed, by their associations with the nations of modern Christendom. Parents who have daughters should seek to instil into their minds, that it is just as hon- orable for them to be united in marri- age to a good man who is already a husband, as to one that is single : they should be taught to reject the society and proposals for marriage of all wick- ed men, whether single or not. A father should be impartial to all his chil- dren, and cultivate the same love for them all ; while each wife should instil into the minds of her own children the necessity of loving the children of each of the others, as brothers and sisters. Each wife should, not only care for the welfare of her husband and her own children, but should also seek the hap- piness of each of his other wives and children. And likewise, the children of each wife should not only respect, honor, and love their own mother, but also the mothers of all their brothers and sisters. By observing these pre- cepts, peace and tranquility will reign throughout every department of the family, and the spirit of God will flow freely from heart to heart. https://archive.org/stream/seereditedbyorso01unse/seereditedbyorso01unse_djvu.txt Edited December 8, 2015 by Zakuska
Walden Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Oh, and once again, I said GOD'S morality and law doesn't change, not the Church. Wait, are you saying that the Church's morality and law is not the same as God's? Then what is the point???
Gray Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Again, that is NOT polygamy, it is the sinful way David and Solomon lived polygamy. If it was polygamy that was abominable he probably would have said Abraham and Jacob, more significant names to Israelites everywhere, not to mention their actual polygamous ancestors. So something can be called an "abomination", but still be okay under differentcircumstances? I agree. 1
Zakuska Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Gray said: So something can be called an "abomination", but still be okay under differentcircumstances? I agree. If Polygamy can be an Abomination in one circumstance and not an Abomination in Another. Whats to say that Gay Marriage can't be the same way? Edited December 8, 2015 by Zakuska 2
Gray Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Zakuska said: If Polygamy can be an Abomination in one circumstance and not an Abomination in Another. Whats to say that Gay Marriage can't be the same way? Exactly my thoughts Taking scriptures in historical context, when they're talking about homosexuality, they're talking about prostitution and fornication. They're not talking about gay marriage. Gay marriage seems exactly the right situation where "abomination" becomes blessing. Edited December 8, 2015 by Gray 1
Russell C McGregor Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 14 hours ago, Zakuska said: Amatures... if you want to prove Polygamy came from God... Might I suggest Apostle Orson Pratt. The seer pg 168-173 Actually the word is "Amateurs." Big long copy and pastes are a waste of bandwidth. And people arguing in good faith don't rely upon repudiated sources like "The Seer." Just so you know. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 43 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Big long copy and pastes are a waste of bandwidth. And annoying as all get-out.
Daniel2 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) On Sunday, December 06, 2015 at 7:01 AM, janderich said: I was at lunch with a couple of friends at work who are not LDS. We started discussing the new policy regarding children and a homosexual couple being the primary care provider. One of them said, "Why can't you just accept these people (gays and lesbians) for who they are?" I had to tell him that I accept them and would never reject them as people but that I believed their lifestyle would never ultimately make them happy. We then got into a short discussion about how they were born that way and couldn't change it. I again felt I needed to tell them that people may be born with certain tendencies but that they always have a choice. After that, the conversation sort of died. It felt awkward for a few minutes until we finally moved on to other topics. Face to face is more awkward than on the internet. I left disappointed. Disappointed that our society cannot recognize homosexual behavior as a choice, and disappointed in almost the sure knowledge that I will have to face this again and again with people who will refuse to understand. I too wonder how far this will go. I think we will be hated more and more by society for our views. Ostracized more and more for what we believe. But I'll square my shoulders and move forward. Sin is sin and we cannot be unclear about such things, it does no one any good. janderich, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As a gay man who ultimately left the church because of many of the experiences you describe above, I can appreciate and have shared feelings of disappointment when certain populations don't arrive at the same beliefs that I have, as well as disappointment knowing that I will have to repeatedly face people who refuse to understand. I can even relate to the sorrow of knowing that the loving relationship I have with my husband, which I have come to cherish as one of the most fulfilling relationships I have on this earth, is and will increasingly become the object of more and more hatred and derision by LDS society righteously bent on "hating" what they consider to be a sin, and ostracized more and more in the coming years for my beliefs and relationship. As the recent policy change demonstrates, it's likely to get worse for gays and lesbians who desire to maintain activity in relation to or within Mormonism before it gets better. As a gay kid who spend my childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood deathly afraid of and doing everything I could to avoid losing the love and acceptance of my parents, friends, Faith, and community but ultimately faced a church court and either resignation or excommunication from the community which I trusted and loved, I can attest that it's never easy to confront being ostracized, let alone social, religious, or cultural rejection of (or, at best, a mandatory, enforced waiting period for membership for) our children, because of who we are or what we feel and believe. But... like you, I squared my shoulders and will continue to move forward. Love is love, a divine gift and, as the scriptures teach us, love is the greatest of all, even more than hope or faith. Mistaking or musjudging love for sin is not something I can unclear about, for it ultimately will do no one any good. Here's the good news: despite our divergent approaches to the subject of the inherent worthiness of same-sex relationships, there is and should be room for us both. While many Latter-day Saints may hate same-sex relationships (which they perceive as sin), and while many LGBT allies may hate religious beliefs (which they believe to be outmoded bigotry), BOTH groups have a choice when it comes to how we treat one another. And far too many on both sides allow themselves to be drawn into hateful manifestations of what they believe are good intentions. Yes, there is room on this earth even for religious folk who don't believe gays and lesbians will ultimately ever be happy or right---so long as such individuals treat gays and lesbians with respect and the same considerations they claim for themselves. Yes, there is room on this earth even for LGBT allies who don't believe Latter-day Saints and other LGBT-averse religions will ultimately ever be happy or right---so long as such individuals treat Latter-day Saints and other religious people with respect and the same considerations they claim for themselves. I came across a Facebook Meme recently that I thought was the epitome of The Golden Rule, as applied to the issues involving the struggle between Gays and Religion: "Give to every human being every right that you claim for yourself." Ultimately, I maintain faith that love CAN and WILL conquer misunderstanding and division, even in the face of divergent beliefs. Edited December 9, 2015 by Daniel2 1
Daniel2 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 On 12/06/2015 at 8:50 AM, filovirus said: Confusion on my part for misunderstanding you. But he did say "homosexual behavior", not homosexuality in general. The question of whether heterosexual OR homosexual behavior is (or should be) a moot point--it's a red herring, to most of these discussions. Sexual conduct/behavior is ALWAYS a choice. Period. The question that I believe is worth far more attention is whether or not any given emotional, romantic, and sexual expression is spiritually, emotionally, and physically authentic and fulfilling (both individually and as shared between the participating parties), and therefore worthy of cultivation through our time, efforts, and development within "the best" relationship we can and should strive for.
The Nehor Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: And annoying as all get-out. Especially when you are too lazy to even format it.
Zakuska Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: 3 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Actually the word is "Amateurs." Big long copy and pastes are a waste of bandwidth. And people arguing in good faith don't rely upon repudiated sources like "The Seer." 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: And annoying as all get-out. Repudiated? SInce when. It was just as "official" for the church as the Ensign or New Era are today. Quote The Seer was an official periodical of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) which first appeared in 1853 and was published throughout 1854.[1] After the LDS Church publicly acknowledged that it was teaching and practicingplural marriage at its September 1852 conference, LDS Church presidentBrigham Young dispatched Apostle Orson Pratt to Washington, D.C., where he was asked to publish an apologetic magazine targeted at non-Mormons. The primary purpose of the magazine would be to explain and defend the principles of Mormonism. The first edition of The Seer was published in January 1853, with future editions being produced monthly. The contents of The Seer were composed almost entirely of original writings by Pratt. Throughout its publication history, the majority of Pratt's writing stressed the rationality of the doctrine of plural marriage.[2] For example, Pratt dedicated 107 of the 192 total pages of The Seer to a twelve-part exposition on what he called celestial marriage. The Seer was published in Washington, D.C. until July 1854, when publication was shifted to Liverpool, England. After only 18 issues, Pratt was forced to cease publication due to mounting financial losses. Circulation peaked at 400 copies in late 1853. "The world will not subscribe for nor read The Seer,"[3] Pratt lamented to his brother Parley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seer_(periodical) Its teachings on Polygamy especially. It wasnt until 1865 that it was repudiated. Intrestingly coinciding with the Anti Bigamy Laws institution by the US government, Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act of July 8 , 1862 Edited December 8, 2015 by Zakuska
Daniel2 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) On 12/06/2015 at 11:13 AM, Teancum said: Joseph Smith April 11 1842: Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.""God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation.""A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have One of my favorite quotes by Joseph Smith--including the following paragraphs: "This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret. But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances. Blessings offered, but rejected, are no longer blessings, but become like the talent hid in the earth by the wicked and slothful servant; the proffered good returns to the giver; the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy; for unto him that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundantly, but unto him that hath not or will not receive, shall be taken away that which he hath, or might have had." "Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive." Edited December 8, 2015 by Daniel2 2
Scott Lloyd Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 7 minutes ago, Zakuska said: Repudiated? SInce when. It was just as "official" for the church as the Esngin or New Era are today. The Seer was an official periodical of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) which first appeared in 1853 and was published throughout 1854.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seer_(periodical) Its teachings on Polygamy especially. For a discussion of The Seer and its disavowal by Church leaders, see this treatment at "FairMormon Answers."
Daniel2 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) On 12/06/2015 at 2:39 PM, why me said: Should the lds church rewrite the proclamation on the family and make it conform to current secular values? Or should it still speak for what god expects the family to be? For what it's worth, many people I speak with believe that a revelation in which God could endorse marriage (or a similar eternal sealing ordinance by another name) for same-sex couples would not require "re-writing" a single word of the proclamation, which could stand in its current entirety. Just because God ordains marriage between a man and a woman doesn't mean He cannot also endorse marriage (or, again, a sealing ordinance by an alternate name) between two men, or two women. Quote Either the lds church is led by god or it is led by human beings. No, not necessarily. The above statement is a false dichotomy. A third alternative is that in one sense, the LDS church is led by God, who's thoughts are not man's thoughts, ways are not man's ways, and time is not man's time; and in another sense, the church is ALSO led by flawed, imperfect, limited, biased, but well-intentioned human beings whom God allows to grow and receive further light and knowledge, when they and the body of the church are ready. Edited December 8, 2015 by Daniel2 1
Daniel2 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) On 12/08/2015 at 9:13 AM, Gray said: So something can be called an "abomination", but still be okay under differentcircumstances? I agree. Exactly. That's what Joseph Smith taught (see the quoted posts above). On 12/08/2015 at 9:36 AM, Zakuska said: If Polygamy can be an Abomination in one circumstance and not an Abomination in Another. Whats to say that Gay Marriage can't be the same way? Exactly. That's what one of Joseph Smith's successors will eventually teach... (sometime within 39 years and change... just ask Scott for the exact countdown ) Edited December 9, 2015 by Daniel2 1
Russell C McGregor Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 3 hours ago, Daniel2 said: Exactly. That's what Joseph Smith taught (see the quoted posts above). Exactly. That's what one of Joseph Smith's successors will eventually teach... (sometime within 39 years and change... just ask Scott for the exact countdown ) No. They will not.
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