Prophet Harold B Lee on the disabled and race

[Avatar4321]

I tend to like references as well.

Are we really going to suggest that what we did in our premortal life has had no influence on our lives now?

edit: I hate autocorrect

Edited December 6, 2015 by Avatar4321

[SamIam]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

.

 

Edited December 6, 2015 by SamIam

[Rivers]

30 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I tend to like references as well.

Are we really going to suggest that what we did in our premarital life has had no influence on our lives now?

The Book of Abraham talks about "noble and great ones" in the pre-mortal life becoming "rulers."  So there is definitely scriptural precedence for our how we lived before affecting what we become in this life. But we shouldn't over-speculate either.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rivers

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

But what he said was the disabled and of different race were unvaliant in the pre mortal life and faced a penalty on earth.

So? Many people face penalties on earth due to their being broken in some way. I have been told I was reasonably valiant yet before coming to this earth but was given a Pauline type "thorn in my flesh" to keep me in line because of a weakness I brought to this earth from the premortal world that did not express itself as much there. It has limited me in many ways in this life and often seems to cut off opportunities.

It is annoying, often painful, and can easily lead to envy and even despair. But so what? It may never be cured in this life but if I endure it well the weakness will be eventually removed and I will be exalted above all things and achieve perfection.

Being worried about premortal worthiness is like arriving to take a test and spending the whole time taking the test worrying about how much time you spent studying. Premortality has a large influence on us but it is now out of our control. We can still pass the test whether we were studious or spent the night before the test playing video games, watching sports, or wasting time on whatever the Premortal version of the internet was. It matters but it is out of our control. We just have to figure out what we are going to do now.

We might know a little bit about our own premortality. We definitely do not have the ability to judge individual cases of others. The Prophet was possibly wrong, speaking in generalities, or has insight that we scoff at because it offends our sensibilities. I admit it offends mine but my sensibilities are not really worth trusting. They come from the culture I was raised in which is not of divine origin. Being a "noble and great one" does not seem to give one an easier life if the lives of the prophets are any indication. The worst man I know who, if his behavior in this life is any indication, was a scumbag in premortality too has lived a life of relative ease. It is great to imagine you are the chosen people of God until you read in scripture how God treats his chosen people at which point you may not want to remain in that group.

And again, when the rubber meets the road what does it matter? Even if you know that the person down the street was a premortal wastrel your duty to them does not change. Even if you know another person was a premortal general who once beat Lucifer in single combat it does not mean they have not fallen with us due to that fruit from Eden and if they invite you to their house for dinner and to share how their "not a pyramid scheme" business plan will make you rich I still would not join.

God loves both the premortal "hero" and the premortal "almost a fence sitter" and wants both to come home exalted. If you want exaltation here he will give it to you. I don't imagine anyone in heaven worries about premortal worthiness and comparing themselves to each other and I bet boasts of premortal prowess elicit only mockery in hell. Premortality is like here. Today the vilest sinner can turn their life around and be forgiven and the greatest saint can sin and fall. We are told not to spend our time fixated on past glories or forgiven sins. Faith looks forward.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Rivers said:

A human prophet.

deleted

Edited December 6, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We are told by them to think it out, pray and follow the Spirit.

But the purpose of praying about what they say is just to confirm what they say is true.    What happens if you pray about what they say and the answer you get is what they said is wrong?  Over and over the leaders have told follow the brethren.   We have been told we should follow the prophet and even if what he says is wrong we will be blessed for it.   So why pray about it?

[CV75]

14 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

One that gets called home fairly quickly... (just kidding)

Do you have a link so we can see his speech in context and exact judgement upon him more fairly?

The rejoinder, which is also often taught, is that the valiant were undoubtedly granted mortal bodies under severe testing of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations. Can you find out whether he ever taught anything like that as well? I bet he did.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

But the purpose of praying about what they say is just to confirm what they say is true.    What happens if you pray about what they say and the answer you get is what they said is wrong?  Over and over the leaders have told follow the brethren.   We have been told we should follow the prophet and even if what he says is wrong we will be blessed for it.   So why pray about it?

You pray about it to live your life accordingly within your stewardship. 

[volgadon]

I don't know that we should equate one's abilities or handicaps with ones premortal valour.

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I did here about that..this is why this quote above from Harold B. Lee really through me for loop.  I was told that we we valiant and we chose to be tested..

So in essence it is wonderful and loving for someone to be told they are special, they were more valiant than other people in the preexistance (thus regulating the nondisabled to the less valiant status), but when the reverse occurs it is mean and nasty?

I think Brother Lee's comment was an attempt to understand why people suffer.  Compassionate people may feel horrible when they see what they believe is unnecessary suffering.  I think speculation as to why such suffering occurs is an attempt to gain control so that suffering can be seen as beneficial if it must exist (not saying someone who sees this uses it as an excuse to ignore, often it means they are more involved in helping because they see real and significant progression beyond the current state as possible, even if only spiritually).  Some speculate that suffering is borne by the more advanced, thus implying it isn't as hard for them to bear the burden they are given.  Some speculate the suffering is given to those less advanced so they have the opportunity to work harder and move further so their past does not limit their future.

 

I think it is better not to speculate at all, there are more than likely a variety of reasons for each person to be where they are.  

[Kenngo1969]

Consistent with The Nehor's observations, I don't know how valiant I was or was not in the premortal life.  A veil has been drawn over that experience.  And frankly, I'm too dang preoccupied with trying to navigate successfully through this giant minefield called mortality to worry about it too much.  And, while I'm sure President Lee was a great man in many ways, he's been dead for forty years.   That fact alone seems like more than reason enough to not worry much about anything he said unless it appears in Teachings of Presidents of the Church or in other current curricula.  (And, while this might be the equivalent of trading my birthright for a mess of pottage, if my challenges or my response to them make me "special" to any degree, frankly, I would trade that "specialness" for a quicker, cleaner, more satisfactory resolution to other challenges that seem  more immediate and more weighty.)  

In His wisdom, God, apparently, feels otherwise.  I look forward to having a lengthy, detailed (and preferably "wet") Personal Priesthood Interview with Him about these issues someday.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Traela]

The whole fence-sitters theory never made sense to me.  I mean, here we are told that God saved His strongest, most valiant children for the Last Days, except apparently for those with certain limitations who were so wimpy in the pre-existence that they were lucky to get a body at all.  It's especially ridiculous when applied to the priesthood ban.  I personally think those members of African descent had far more strength and faith than the average member to endure in that situation.

My theory is that the early leaders understood, correctly, that our trials in this life are based on our "performance" (for lack of a better word) in the pre-existence.  What they did not necessarily understand was how that is reflected in this world.  I suspect it takes a special kind of strength to go through all of the chaos existing in some parts of the world, but still continue to be a good person and even recognize the Gospel when they learn about it.

 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Traela said:

The whole fence-sitters theory never made sense to me.  I mean, here we are told that God saved His strongest, most valiant children for the Last Days, except apparently for those with certain limitations who were so wimpy in the pre-existence that they were lucky to get a body at all.  It's especially ridiculous when applied to the priesthood ban.  I personally think those members of African descent had far more strength and faith than the average member to endure in that situation.

My theory is that the early leaders understood, correctly, that our trials in this life are based on our "performance" (for lack of a better word) in the pre-existence.  What they did not necessarily understand was how that is reflected in this world.  I suspect it takes a special kind of strength to go through all of the chaos existing in some parts of the world, but still continue to be a good person and even recognize the Gospel when they learn about it.

 

Though if you want to look at it more closely we are told that this world is the worst of the lot so being the most valiant of this world might be the premortality equivalent of being an honor student at St Brutus's Secure Center for Incurably Criminal Boys.

[Zakuska]

Personally I like what the Lord taught on this subject...

John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

This man's pre-existance valiantness or lack there of had nothing to do with his disability.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Zakuska

[VideoGameJunkie]

43 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

Personally I like what the Lord taught on this subject...

John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

This man's pre-existance valiantness or lack there of had nothing to do with his disability.

Then why didn't Harold B Lee know that? Hadn't he read the New Testament before?

Edited December 6, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Russell C McGregor]

2 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Then why didn't Harold B Lee know that? Hadn't he read the New Testament before?

VGJ, there are two CFR's for the quote in the OP.

 

I'd like to add mine as well. Please tell us where you sourced this quote.

 

Thanks.

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

VGJ, there are two CFR's for the quote in the OP.

 

I'd like to add mine as well. Please tell us where you sourced this quote.

 

Thanks.

The quote is from his book 'Decisions for Successful Living' pages 164-165. You can find the book here on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Decisions-Successful-Living-Harold-Lee/dp/B000KCJRSE

Edited December 6, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I think the greater question is why folks just can't say, "I don't rightly know." instead of speculating? I think that is the issue people are having. Bro. Harold was supposed to be the mouthpiece of God, if he didn't really know, he should've stated so.

 

[Tony Frank]

1 hour ago, Zakuska said:

Personally I like what the Lord taught on this subject...

John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

This man's pre-existance valiantness or lack there of had nothing to do with his disability.

19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Then why didn't Harold B Lee know that? Hadn't he read the New Testament before?

 

Jesus explained what the situation was for "this man" in particular, but the disciples obviously knew there was a doctrine concerning man's behavior in the pre-existence and how it factors into his afflictions in this life.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Tony Frank

[SamIam]

23 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

This is an obvious act at pulling a quote out of context in order to create an illusion of insensitivity concerning a prophet of the Lord.  Peter Pear on page one provides the entire quote but since so many seem to be following VGJ down his rabbit hole I would like to post it again.  The whole quote:

Quote

The privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations. Between the extremes of the "noble and the great" spirits, whom God would make his rulers, and the disobedient and the rebellious, who were cast out with Satan, there were obviously many spirits with varying degrees of faithfulness. May we not assume from these teachings that the progress and development we made as spirits have brought privileges and blessings here according to our faithfulness in the spirit world? Now don't be too hasty in your conclusions as to what conditions in mortality constitute the greater privileges. That condition in life which gives the greatest experience and opportunity for development is the one to be most desired and any one so privileged is most favored of God. It has been said that "a smooth sea never made a skillful mariner, neither do uninterrupted prosperity and success qualify for usefulness and happiness. The storms of adversity, like those of the ocean, rouse the faculties and excite the invention, prudence, skill and fortitude of the voyager. The mariners of ancient times, in bracing their minds to outward calamaties, acquired a loftiness of purpose and a moral heroism worth a lifetime of softness and security. (Harold B. Lee, Decisions for Successful Living [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1973], 165 - 166.)

The implications are clear that both the valiant and those less than valiant will all potentially find themselves in circumstances that will be trying and difficult and all may be blessed to find tehmselves subject to the "storms of adversity".

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

I think the greater question is why folks just can't say, "I don't rightly know." instead of speculating? I think that is the issue people are having. Bro. Harold was supposed to be the mouthpiece of God, if he didn't really know, he should've stated so.

 

This advice, if taken by all past prophets would have avoided many of the issues that the church is dealing with now or had to deal with in the recent (1978) past.

[Storm Rider]

32 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This advice, if taken by all past prophets would have avoided many of the issues that the church is dealing with now or had to deal with in the recent (1978) past.

If only we could live by the same standard that we judge others.  The unfortunate thing is that we may very well be stuck with the standard when we face God and will condemn our own selves.  

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

I think the greater question is why folks just can't say, "I don't rightly know." instead of speculating? I think that is the issue people are having. Bro. Harold was supposed to be the mouthpiece of God, if he didn't really know, he should've stated so.

 

This advice, if taken by all past prophets would have avoided many of the issues that the church is dealing with now or had to deal with in the recent (1978) past.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If only we could live by the same standard that we judge others.  The unfortunate thing is that we may very well be stuck with the standard when we face God and will condemn our own selves.  

This isn't judgement, it is hindsite.

[SamIam]

56 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This isn't judgement, it is hindsite.

Hmmm.  A location where female red deer gather together?