Prophet Harold B Lee on the disabled and race

[VideoGameJunkie]

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

[Rivers]

A human prophet.

[VideoGameJunkie]

So we should give a pass to the mean thing he said just because he's a "human"? I think it was a disgusting thing to say that no prophet should have ever thought.

[strappinglad]

Do you know why people end up in the bodies they end up in ? Born into extreme wealth or extreme poverty, born into highly athletic  bodies or badly deformed ones, born with extraordinary intelligence or very mentally challenged. What kind of God etc. etc.? Brother Lee could be mistaken in his understanding. He could also be dead on even though our current thinking is in substantial disagreement . I am reasonably sure that the first part of his statement about gaining a body being a major event and so prized as to be acceptable in whatever the circumstances ,is true. But why some get one kind and some another has been speculated on for ever. apparently this life is a test, not only for the disabled, but more likely for how we respond to seeing the disability. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by strappinglad
Matt 7:2 haunts me still.

[VideoGameJunkie]

But what he said was the disabled and of different race were unvaliant in the pre mortal life and faced a penalty on earth.

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So we should give a pass to the mean thing he said just because he's a "human"? I think it was a disgusting thing to say that no prophet should have ever thought.

 

I hear you and maybe if Pres. Lee was around today he'd think differently-have you ever thought that he might think things you think are bad too?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

Yeah, I hate stupid people that say stupid things too.  In fact, I think we need to round up all the stupid people in the world that think or say stupid things and just kill them or at least burn them at the stake for a while so that know that we think they are stupid.  I particularly want to round up all the Christians that sin or say stupid things because they should know better!  Then I would take all the people that don't think like me and burn them at the stake also.  If there is anyone that claims to know God and is not perfect they should either be forced to demonstrate their perfection or should be stoned to death.  

You know that big throne you sit on when you determine what a man should think or at least should know better....that is exactly the standard of judgment with which you will be judged.  

You burn hot and then you are cold.  You are difficult to keep up with at times.  There is value in finding a balance and a deeper understanding of what it means to be a disciple of Christ; what it means to judge others; what is a prophet and how should they be judged by everyone else; what it means to serve.  

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm just getting at as someone with a mental disability and knowing people with worse disabilities it hurts to think that a prophet of God thought we were unvaliant in our pre mortal life. 

[Jeanne]

Ouch.  For those of us who have disabilities, no matter what race we are, this is heartbreaking. 

[Rivers]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Ouch.  For those of us who have disabilities, no matter what race we are, this is heartbreaking. 

Yet we also hear a contradictory teaching on this topic.  I'm sure everyone has heard the stories of disabled people being told they helped Michael cast Lucifer out of heaven in their patriarchal blessings. 

 

 

[Jeanne]

Just now, Rivers said:

Yet we also hear a contradictory teaching on this topic.  I'm sure everyone has heard the stories of disabled people being told they helped Michael cast Lucifer out of heaven in their patriarchal blessings. 

 

 

I did here about that..this is why this quote above from Harold B. Lee really through me for loop.  I was told that we we valiant and we chose to be tested..

[strappinglad]

I feel your pain. Now if you could give your reason for why you have certain flaws and another human doesn't. For that matter, why some other human has a particular disability and you don't. Is it just the luck of the draw?  Is it the fault of parents lifestyle choices or perhaps genetic mutations? If past actions of yourself or your parents in this life , ie a traffic accident or heavy alcohol consumption during pregnancy ,   have resulted in your disability ,is it not even remotely possible that some action in the pre-existence may also had an effect ? This is not to say that I fully support the ideas expressed by Bro Lee, I don't, but I can't totally discount them either. The idea that race and valiancy are connected has now been rejected by the Church leaders. Bro. Lee wasn't around to get the memo. Shame on him for being so not in tune. 

[PeterPear]

Silly. Someone posts a short quote by President Lee and the rest go off on him;  while none even contemplate to research his other teachings - as if for an excuse to criticize the Prophet.

"

Harold B. Lee
From The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p. 23
Between the extremes of the "noble and the great" spirits, whom God would make His rulers (see Abraham 3:22-23), and the disobedient and the rebellious, who were cast out with Satan, there were obviously many spirits with varying degrees of faithfulness. May we not assume from these teachings that the progress and development we made as spirits have brought privileges and blessings here according to our faithfulness in the spirit world? Now don't be too hasty in your conclusions as to what conditions in mortality constitute the greater privileges. That condition in life which gives the greatest experience and opportunity for development is the one to be most desired and any one so privileged is most favored of God...

Now, don't misunderstand as to just what may be a great privilege or opportunity. Sometimes to be born through the channels of adversity is to have had the greatest opportunity. Just because we haven't been born rich, for instance, may be the greatest blessing we could possibly have. Perhaps some physical infirmities might be a blessing. " 

I guess the posts do demonstrate who the faithful and noble were in the pre-mortal life.

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So we should give a pass to the mean thing he said just because he's a "human"? I think it was a disgusting thing to say that no prophet should have ever thought.

 

So 21st century political correctness is to be the yardstick for all statements by LDS leaders, ever?

 

I think that's a disgusting argument that no plausible Latter-day Saint should ever make.

 

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

There is no reason to believe that all spirits in the premortal world were clones of each other.  Abraham 3 says all spirits varied in degrees of intelligence.  So more than others.  It is reasonable to believe that since we were all different, some were more valiant and faithful than other spirits.  In any large group one is going to see individuals cover the spectrum from most faithful to least faithful.  Some probably took a long time to decide whether to choose Jesus or Satan in their respective plans offered.   What can't be established is that less faithful ones were placed in a certain race or group and is are not represented in other groups.  I have always taken the view that those born with serious defects were some of the most faithful spirits. 

 

I have no problem with what Brother Lee said in the sense he was just doing his best to understand things that are not well understood.  I am sure we all have views on different subjects that are off the mark of what is correct.  As to what kind of a prophet in the 20th century talks like that?  Why can't a prophet talk like that.  Must they always use the same words or say things that we would say?  Prophets are human beings and individuals.  Lets give them some slack just as we would want people to give us some slack in some of the areas we are not perfect in.

Edited December 6, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Sleeper Cell]

2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

But what he said was the disabled and of different race were unvaliant in the pre mortal life and faced a penalty on earth.

He said that the unvaliant were permitted to take such mortal bodies. He did not say that all who had taken such bodies had been unvaliant.  

[Nevo]

Fortunately, one isn't duty-bound to agree with everything that Harold B. Lee ever said or thought about a given subject. God has apparently, at different times, called racists, anti-Semites, young earth creationists, and inconsiderate people, among others, into high callings in the Church. That's his business. I'm just glad he throws us enlightened types a bone once in a while in the form of a Hugh B. Brown or Dieter F. Uchtdorf .

Edited December 6, 2015 by Nevo

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Rivers said:

A human prophet.

 

 

When we don't like what they said they are simply fallible.  When we like it they are prophets.  But the leaders never distinguish the two and we are told by them to follow the brethren.   

Edited December 6, 2015 by Teancum

[Tony Frank]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

Thanks VGJ. You have opened my eyes. Since God has seen fit to afflict people in Africa in such horrendous ways, it must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong.. I notice that things are going well where the gospel is preached in Africa.

How about China with their forced abortions? It must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong. BTW, the gospel is not preached in China yet.

[VideoGameJunkie]

33 minutes ago, Tony Frank said:

Thanks VGJ. You have opened my eyes. Since God has seen fit to afflict people in Africa in such horrendous ways, it must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong.. I notice that things are going well where the gospel is preached in Africa.

How about China with their forced abortions? It must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong. BTW, the gospel is not preached in China yet.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

 

 

When we don't like what they said they are simpl fallible.  When we like it they are prophets.  But the leaders never distinguish the two and we are told by them to follow the brethren.   

We follow the brethren because they have been called and given stewardship over the church. Not because they are perfect.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rivers

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So we should give a pass to the mean thing he said just because he's a "human"? I think it was a disgusting thing to say that no prophet should have ever thought.

What if it were true?  It might be, you know.

Do you remember when the disciples brought the young man who had been born blind to Jesus and asked him if his blindness was due to his own or his parents fault?  Jesus said it was neither, but that he was born blind in order to demonstrate the power of God in his healing.  Now isn't that interesting?  Jesus didn't deny the possibility that he was born blind as a result of something done in the pre-existence, did he?  In fact, wouldn't you say that this was a horrible thing to do to someone, to make them be blind just so Jesus could be seen to heal them?

Genghis Khan was a horrible man who raped and plundered all across Asia.  He was so diligent a rapist, in fact, that something like 1/5th of the population of central asia carry his genetic markers in their genomes.  Now, was God blessing or punishing a young woman to live in a time and place where she could be brutally raped and made with child outside of wedlock, and then be forced to raise that child in abject poverty because half her male relatives were dead as a result of the war that Genghis Khan brought?  

And then we have me.  I was born to reasonably prosperous parents in the greatest and most prosperous nation the world has ever seen, able to get as much education as I wanted, with the freedom to enter into any profession that i wanted to follow, live anywhere I wanted in a vast realm, and on top of everything else I was born in a time and place when the fullness of the Gospel was freely available.  Have I not been blessed beyond 95% of the rest of Father's children who have ever lived upon this earth?  If I am not being rewarded for previous faithfulness, it is beyond me to try to figure out why I should be so advantaged, when others were given terrible disadvantages.

And again, how do you know that President Lee was wrong?  Just because you don't like it?  Unconvincing.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

A very conservative, narrow minded one.  God didn't speak this, a man did. 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

 

 

When we don't like what they said they are simply fallible.  When we like it they are prophets.  But the leaders never distinguish the two and we are told by them to follow the brethren.   

We are told by them to think it out, pray and follow the Spirit.

[oremites]

Could we get a reference for this quote so we can read it in context and verify its accuracy?

That may or may not change the meaning of this quote in any way, but I've been fooled too many times in the past to get all worked up about a supposed "quote" from a prophet before it's been verified.