Meridian Magazine: Can You Help Your Children Choose Heterosexuality? (Answer: Yes)

[Bobbieaware]

Yes it did....didn't make it right or exemplary. Don't understand your question (rhetorical?)...could be my migraine kicking in though. 

 

 

Many were for at least parts of their lives. Most have fairly diverse lives so I feel ill at ease as labeling them as "practicing homosexual" or not. But yes, they often had great faith.

I just looked it up and an analogy is primarily considered to be a literary device -- in this instance used in hope of scoring a rhetorical point.

[BlueDreams]

I just looked it up and an analogy is primarily considered to be a literary device -- in this instance used in hope of scoring a rhetorical point.

Bobbie, i'm still confused as to what exactly you're talking about on this one. I literally meant, I don't understand your question or what you were getting at with the question and was wondering to myself if it was rhetorical.

[Scott Lloyd]

that's what I give when I feel uncomfortable representing the position of a group i'm not actually apart of nor want to mispeak for...adroit nonanswers

 

 

What cal says....I'm a little tired, so this part may not make sense...if so feel free for clarification. I don't think what is intrinsically us is inherently wrong, but inherently good. The parts of us that equals the "natural man" are not permanent fixtures into our divine natures.  But even that, I don't feels like it's an act of suppression. The words used in scriptures include overcome, put off, and yields to the spirit. All assume a level of self-mastery. Suppression, in common day vernacular is probably closest to therapeutic ideas such as white knuckling it. It isn't actually conquering something. Even for things that are inherently wrong, such as addictions, the steps for healing aren't generally about pushing the addiction down but yielding the addiction up to a higher power and recognizing one is not in control.

 

I think sometimes when we talk about overcoming we give way too much credit at our own capacities to alter ourselves or our circumstances. People who "overcome all" have only mastered one thing above all else IMO: accepting dependency and need of our Savior. 

 

With luv,

BD

A scriptural passage I really like that I think has relevance to this subject is in Alma 38:12,

 

 

Bridle all your passions that ye may be filled with love.

 

In the context of human sexuality, this to me is saying that channeling one's appetites within the bounds the Lord has set fosters and nurtures love; the selfish gratification of the same is hateful and harmful.

[The Nehor]

That's why Paul said of himself, "I am crucified with Christ."

 

I agree with the sentiment but see it more as letting the great physician perform surgery. Unfortunately there are times there is no anesthetic.

[ttribe]

Bobbie, i'm still confused as to what exactly you're talking about on this one. I literally meant, I don't understand your question or what you were getting at with the question and was wondering to myself if it was rhetorical.

 

You're arguing with someone who is convinced her understanding of the world is superior to everyone else; and you're doing so under the disadvantage of suffering through a migraine (I get them too).  It's a no-win situation.

[The Nehor]

In the context of human sexuality, this to me is saying that channeling one's appetites within the bounds the Lord has set fosters and nurtures love; the selfish gratification of the same is hateful and harmful.

 

True but while some are bridling their passions to use them more fully others it is bridling them when there is little to no hope of ever enjoying them. While I agree it is sometimes necessary it is also like going through life crippled.

[Bobbieaware]

I agree with the sentiment but see it more as letting the great physician perform surgery. Unfortunately there are times there is no anesthetic.

I'm going through one of those "no anesthetic" bouts of tribulation right now... no joke.

[BlueDreams]

You're arguing with someone who is convinced her understanding of the world is superior to everyone else; and you're doing so under the disadvantage of suffering through a migraine (I get them too).  It's a no-win situation.

I hate migraines...i know I should stop....but I hate going to bed before 11. But it's 11:02, so I should probably call it finished for the night.  

[ttribe]

I hate migraines...i know I should stop....but I hate going to bed before 11. But it's 11:02, so I should probably call it finished for the night.

 

Rest is always the best thing for me...medicinally, Maxalt > * in terms of everything I've tried.

[BlueDreams]

Rest is always the best thing for me...medicinally, Maxalt > * in terms of everything I've tried.

 

Asprin and ginger tea for me...a lot of migraine meds make me more nauseous....aspirin takes off the edge and ginger tea shaves off a little more. rest is a double edged sword for me. If I get too much of it I'll wake up with a headache that can turn into another migraine. Ergo why I really try not to go to bed before 11. 

[Calm]

President David O. McKay said that some of the evils we find in ourselves are jealousy, hatred, envy, and animosity. Of them he said: “All such evils you must overcome by suppression. That is where your control comes in. Suppress that anger! Suppress that jealousy, that envy! They are all injurious to the spirit” (Gospel Ideals [1954], 356).

Suppression of wicked impulses by the power of the Spirit is transformative. Paul likens it to crucifying the natural man.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5)

Wouldn't it be better to follow Christ's instructions about being reborn a new man, rather than hold on to one's vices, etc. which is what suppression is...it stays a part of you, continues to burden you.  Cleansing oneself of one's weaknesses requires understanding what those weaknesses and doing something about them, not pretending that by pushing them down that somehow they will disappear.

[Scott Lloyd]

True but while some are bridling their passions to use them more fully others it is bridling them when there is little to no hope of ever enjoying them. While I agree it is sometimes necessary it is also like going through life crippled.

Those who are afflicted in whatever respect it may be will be compensated eternally for whatever sacrifice they make in trying to do right and serve and obey God.

 

I just found this in an old pamphlet authored by Charles W. Penrose, a Church leader of an earlier era:

 

Eternal justice and eternal mercy will operate in each individual case, and a just and righteous judge will deal out that which belongs to all. ... There are people born with certain tendencies and proclivities; there are others who have environments around them which almost impel them to do that which is evil. He who willfully does evil will reap evil. There is an eternal law of compensation which God cannot turn aside and be God. Every tree will bring forth its own fruit. Every seed will bear of its kind.

 

[webbles]

Wouldn't it be better to follow Christ's instructions about being reborn a new man, rather than hold on to one's vices, etc. which is what suppression is...it stays a part of you, continues to burden you.  Cleansing oneself of one's weaknesses requires understanding what those weaknesses and doing something about them, not pretending that by pushing them down that somehow they will disappear.

This is starting to feel like word semantics.  Even after you've come to understand your weaknesses, given them up to Christ, cleansed yourself of them, etc, they are still there.  You live with them and always have to deal with them.  And you have to prevent yourself from acting on those weaknesses.  So you still have to suppress them.  You aren't ignoring them, you aren't burying them.  You are preventing yourself from acting on them while you continuously deal with them.

[rockpond]

I am not quite sure how to put this so its coming from heart and it might be torn apart by those to whom this just an intellectual discussion based on reason and logic. I hope you all realize that souls and precious children are involved in this. I am the dad of a 15 year old gay son trying as hard as I can to figure out how to raise him so that he can have a relationship with his Father in Heaven when there are almost no real answers about why or how he can live his life happily and fully in the Church. I have had a member of the First Quorum of the seventy spend an afternoon in our house listening to our questions and at the end of the day tell us that the leaders of the Church just don't have many of the answers right now. They are praying constantly for guidance but it hasn't fully come. This article is so full of half truths and insinuations that have been tossed at our family over and over again. I have personally seen the damage that such articles and thoughts do to our gay members of the Church. Such articles do not bring peace and the ideas presented simply do not work. The writer has no real evidence that her ideas work. She has never put them in practice. it is simply her theory. I wish that before someone published such an article, they would take the time to really try to apply their theories and see if they work. I understand the outrage voiced over this article. It is so very clear that the writer has no real experience and is simply perpetuating so many myths that Mormon's desperately cling too because they simply cannot believe Heavenly Father would allow someone to be born gay.

Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective here. I really appreciate it.

[rockpond]

Yes, I'm clearly not understanding something. I posted a number of Facebook comments about the article. You then posted the ones you characterized as "some good points" and discarded the others as being "pointless attacks." The comments you characterized as "good points" included the following:

• "It's time to go look for dead bodies because clearly this is damaging to LGBT people."
• "Maybe for your next article, you could look up statistics on suicide among gay youth, and more particularly gay Mormon youth."

Russell then made a comment about "the 'gays commit suicide because heteros disapprove of sodomy' trope". You then said that you haven't "suggested" this trope, after which I observed that abstaining from "suggesting" a trope but endorsing it when espoused by others is "a distinction without a difference."

And now here you are, saying that I'm mistaken about ... something, and that there is a "distinction there that is important to understand."

Well, seeing as I'm not understanding what you are saying, I look forward to you educating me.

Thanks,

-Smac

The post by kimpearson said it better than I ever could.

It's not about "heteros disapproving of sodomy" as Russell so crudely put it.

[Bobbieaware]

True but while some are bridling their passions to use them more fully others it is bridling them when there is little to no hope of ever enjoying them. While I agree it is sometimes necessary it is also like going through life crippled.

It may be considered by some as going through this short life as a cripple, but through faith in Christ those so challenged can be made whole and receive exaltation in the next. Christ himself said some are made eunuchs of men, and others make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. This is the choice: Enjoy fleeting pleasures in this ephemeral realm while they last, or enjoy glory, laud, honor and supreme joy in the world to come. When we enter eternity, and gain full eternal perspective, this life will hardly appear as even a blip on a radar screen and it is then that the choice to live lives of sacrifice virtue on earth will appear to have been the much wiser choice.

[Calm]

 

In the context of human sexuality, this to me is saying that channeling one's appetites within the bounds the Lord has set fosters and nurtures love; the selfish gratification of the same is hateful and harmful.

Exactly, and that is not suppression, but control.  You don't bridle a horse to suppress it, to cripple it, or to prevent it from moving at all...which is what people usually mean by suppress...they push the feelings, ideas, desires away in hopes of not experiencing them, locking them away so they have no influence over you.  But the mind and emotions don't work that way, you can't lock them away...you may not be aware of how they are moving below the surface, but they do and they can cause a great deal of harm at times if they become very twisted.  

 

Instead you bridle your passions so you can use their energy, their power in a positive way rather than leaving them running free uncontrolled or so hobbled it ends up paralyzing oneself.  Like a good horse, you feed an appetite the right food and give it the right kind of exercise, it will grow into a useful animal and not an uncontrolled disaster waiting to happen.  

 

It is not so much the appetite itself you need to learn to understand but why you have that appetite and the right things to feed it in order for it to be turned to the good...for example, it is likely the woman in Nehor's example, hungered to belong and for attention, to be cared for and she inititially got those needs filled through gossiping.  But later when she realized that wasn't the kind of woman she wanted to be, she used those desired righteously by learning about the people around her in good ways and she received attention in a much more positive way.

 

Another problem with using suppression is that it rarely is a 'surgical strike' and more of a nuclear blast...which is unfortunately given how our selves are all intertwined very closely.  In attempting to suppress less desirable traits you will often shut down the desirable ones as well.  Seen this happen a lot in people, they are fearful of temper, of dwelling too much on negative, or even of lust.  They won't say anything that even hints of anger and end up becoming one tone passionless creatures that just endure instead of take risks and have joy or when they end up not seeing and expressing disagreement in good ways, they put on masks and lose the ability to express how they really feel, even when it is good like love, and last some people can become so fearful of expressing any form of lust, they shut down their passions completely and if they love at all, it is a very superficial, non committing type.

 

the selfish gratification of the same 

 

Selfish gratification generally involves suppression of some positive aspects, suppression of the light of Christ, of one's knowledge of what real love can be, etc.  Selfish gratification is not the release of all self suppression, but just a shift to the opposite extreme of unbalanced health.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

True but while some are bridling their passions to use them more fully others it is bridling them when there is little to no hope of ever enjoying them. While I agree it is sometimes necessary it is also like going through life crippled.

It can certainly feel that way, but if one is able to trust God, the promise is his bridle will eventually have us running faster and farther and having lots more fun doing it than we ever could have done so with his bridling.

 

We need to be very sure that if we are taking a bridle upon ourself, that it is God's and we are giving ourself into his hands for sanctification and not just because someone we admire suggested it...thinks it would be good for us or someone we love requires it as a condition of loving us in return because they want us to be a certain type o

Edited September 30, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

 Even after you've come to understand your weaknesses, given them up to Christ, cleansed yourself of them, etc, they are still there.  

 

Some will be there through mortality, but others we can be completely cleansed of them in this life through Christ's healing in my belief.

 

Then there are others that change in their nature and instead of a weakness, they become a strength...something not to be suppressed, but celebrated.

 

This is starting to feel like word semantics. 

 

Considering all we have to understand each other are words, the meanings of words are rather important.  And the assumptions that rest behind them are important as well.  If someone is taught that all he needs to do is suppress his appetites and weaknesses and so he  chooses to "suppress" his violent temper where he won't express any anger and just walks away from situations still upset because nothing is resolved and he stews rather than getting treatment or finding another way to channel the power and drive of his temper into healthy pursuits, that semantical understanding might result with him ending up as an abuser.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Calm

[cinepro]

Sorry folks, but I think there's been a misunderstanding. 

 

It looks like the article was published at the website for "Meridian" magazine.  As we all know, the "meridian" of time was 2000 years ago, when Jesus walked the Earth.   Obviously, this online magazine is some sort of thought experiment in which they publish articles that reflect the culture and attitudes of the people from 2000 years ago.

 

From that perspective, I think we can better understand the mindset of the author, and I apologize for judging her harshly on the assumption that she was presenting "modern" ideas.  I feel foolish for not having seen it sooner, and commend Meridian magazine for their interesting and novel approach to the history of thought towards homosexuality.

[Bobbieaware]

Wouldn't it be better to follow Christ's instructions about being reborn a new man, rather than hold on to one's vices, etc. which is what suppression is...it stays a part of you, continues to burden you. Cleansing oneself of one's weaknesses requires understanding what those weaknesses and doing something about them, not pretending that by pushing them down that somehow they will disappear.

Self-will and crucifying the flesh by the power of the Spirit, as Paul taught, are two different things. When Christ began to struggle with the Father's will in Gethsemane, he overcame the temptation to shrink from drinking the bitter cup by drawing on the power of the eternal Spirit. He suppressed.his own will in obedience to the Father's will by the power of that Spirit. And it wasn't easy -- it took all the faith he possessed to overcome his own desires and yield to his Father's awesome will.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Tacenda]

Sorry folks, but I think there's been a misunderstanding. 

 

It looks like the article was published at the website for "Meridian" magazine.  As we all know, the "meridian" of time was 2000 years ago, when Jesus walked the Earth.   Obviously, this online magazine is some sort of thought experiment in which they publish articles that reflect the culture and attitudes of the people from 2000 years ago.

 

From that perspective, I think we can better understand the mindset of the author, and I apologize for judging her harshly on the assumption that she was presenting "modern" ideas.  I feel foolish for not having seen it sooner, and commend Meridian magazine for their interesting and novel approach to the history of thought towards homosexuality.

Here's the 2015 version..http://rationalfaiths.com/helping-our-children-be-themselves/

[Scott Lloyd]

Seems like discussions on this topic always get so polarized.

 

I have a question, not by way of argumentation but in a sincere quest for clarification: Granting that there are some individuals for whom their homosexual orientation is altogether unalterable and absolutely not a matter of choice, are there not some who self-identify as "bi-sexual? Who find themselves somewhere along the Kinsey scale? Assuming that they are at some point along this continuum and not at either extreme end, would not such individuals have some degree of choice in the way they express their sexuality? Could they not, by suppressing their homosexual tendencies and nurturing their heterosexuality find happiness in a marriage to a spouse of the opposite sex and the progeny that would result from that relationship?

 

Even heterosexual folks, unless they totally give themselves over to promiscuity, must undertake some degree of suppression of their sexual inclinations. One who is determined to be absolutely faithful to his or her spouse must do so.

 

So, could it not be said that the Meridian article would have some useful message to convey to those who do have some choice in their sexual orientation, i.e. those who are at some point along the Kinsey continuum?

In follow-up to this post, we got off on a tangent about word choice, which was not my intent (I'm willing to drop the word "suppress" if it carries too much baggage), and I feel that the point I was trying to make got pushed aside.

 

Are there not among us those who self-identify as being bi-sexual, who have some measure of same-sex attraction but also have enough of attraction for the opposite sex that they could be encouraged and helped to emphasize that part of their nature to the point that they could have a wholesome and lasting marriage as God ordains marriage to be (see "The Family: a Proclamation to the World")? Hasn't there been a man who has spoken a couple of times at the FairMormon Conference (and pardon, but I don't recall his name at the moment) who has demonstrated in his own life this possibility?

 

And maybe the Meridian article is not the best way to accomplish such encouragement, but do we need to discard the concept altogether?

 

Edited to add:

 

The speaker at the conference was Ty Mansfield, and here's a link to his presentation.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Paddy]

Looks like the article has mercifully been withdrawn.

[jkwilliams]

And how orientation (both gay/straight/other) is a 'social construct' that was only called into existence near the end of the 19th century and only became normative towards the end of the 20th century?

And? Race is also a social construct, but that doesn't mean we choose our skin color.