Meridian Magazine: Can You Help Your Children Choose Heterosexuality? (Answer: Yes)

[smac97]

As I noted, this caught my eye, as an adoptive parent. I don't appreciate the point she raised there.

 

Can you quote the part where she "diminished adoptive parents"?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[cinepro]

The article did confuse me about one thing though.

 

Ms. Smith theorizes the following:

 

For youth who do not have a genetic predisposition to homosexuality, but choose homosexuality for other reasons, we can help them choose heterosexuality if we simply make heterosexuality more appealing to them.

 

With that in mind, I recognize that I could support heterosexuality for our young men by encouraging my daughter and other young women to dress immodestly.  Yes, it is something that they used to be taught they shouldn't do, but sometimes we must make sacrifices for the greater good.

[cinepro]

Can you quote the part where she "diminished adoptive parents"?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless of whether we bake them exquisite wedding cakes, take phenomenal photographs at their receptions, or rent them a room with the very best view in the building, homosexuals will still be deprived of some of the privileges afforded heterosexual couples.

A husband and wife who bear children together can look at their progeny and exclaim, “She has your nose, and my mouth,” or “Our daughter got her musical talent from her mom and her sense of humor from her dad,” or “Look at this gorgeous child. She’s the best of both of us.” A husband and wife can celebrate posterity that will last through the eternities. Their union, sanctioned not just by the government, but by God Almighty, can last forever.

The part about the genetic sense of humor is especially interesting. I have three adopted siblings, and I always wondered why my dad would tell jokes at dinner and I would be laughing uncontrollably while my brothers and sister just sat there looking confused.

Edited September 29, 2015 by cinepro

[Russell C McGregor]

Some good points there... thanks for pulling these over from Facebook for everyone to read.

 

The ones that I removed are those that, agreeing with you, I consider to be pointless attacks.

 

So you think those points are good because you actually believe them, or because, despite (or because of) their falsity, they are useful to manipulate people?

 

Is it the "gays commit suicide because heteros disapprove of sodomy" trope that you like best?

[ERayR]

It's been a while since Merdian surprised me.  Consider me surprised!

 

 

 

 

I don't plan on teaching my children they "have a choice", but if any other parents do have this conversation with their children (especially their homosexual children), please let us know how it goes!

 

 

 

 

I'm not entirely clear on her theory, so can someone explain if it would also be possible for pornography or sexual abuse to trigger someone away from homosexuality as well?

 

Note it does not say they have a choice to have homo-sexual impulse but that they have a choice to give in to those impulses.  She is right on in this analysis.

 

Quote: "They also have a choice of whether or not they will give in to same-sex attraction".

Edited September 29, 2015 by ERayR

[ERayR]

There's a choice to act in a certain way but not a choice to feel a certain way.

 

That is exactly what is said read it again.

[ERayR]

The choice is whether to act on your desires or not. I don't think anyone believes you can choose your sexual orientation, except this author, it seems.

 

Please read for comprehension.

[ALarson]

I just went over to the Meridian Facebook page and the comments are pretty interesting to read.   They (Meridian Magazine) are really being taken to task and I wonder if they'll pull this article?

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[The Nehor]

With that in mind, I recognize that I could support heterosexuality for our young men by encouraging my daughter and other young women to dress immodestly.  Yes, it is something that they used to be taught they shouldn't do, but sometimes we must make sacrifices for the greater good.

 

[ALarson]

From the feedback and comments I've read, this quote is one from the article that is offensive to parents of gay children (and I can understand why it is):

 

When the only heterosexual relationships available for an adolescent to model are miserable, a child or an adolescent may decide they want “anything but” that type of relationship. As homosexuality is currently in vogue, particularly among adolescents, he or she may decide to experiment with this type of relationship. If a child is to choose heterosexuality, it is very helpful for him to have happy, loving heterosexual role models.

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[cinepro]

Note it does not say they have a choice to have homo-sexual impulse but that they have a choice to give in to those impulses.  She is right on in this analysis.

 

Quote: "They also have a choice of whether or not they will give in to same-sex attraction".

Everyone is familiar with the idea that LDS who feel homosexual desires should choose not to act on those desires.

The problem is that the article goes way beyond that. It presents those desires in the context of them being created from the attitudes (and bedtime stories?) of their childhood.  That for many homosexuals, there is a pull between heterosexuality and homosexuality, and parents can tip the scales in favor of heterosexuality.

 

There are people like that.  They're called bi-sexual.  For them, it truly is a choice whether they'll have sex with a man or woman; they are attracted to both.

 

But Sister Smith presents the theory that how we treat our children can have a direct influence on whether they choose to be attracted to men or women in the future:

 

 

 

In our culture we do a pretty good job of exposing little girls to the joys of motherhood. We buy them dolls, let them cuddle up to the new baby on the sofa, read them stories about princesses and princes. They dress up in bridal wear, and play house with their toddler-sized kitchen full of plastic food. We prepare them for their future as mothers, “When you grow up you will be such a good mommy…”

 

Boys are afforded fewer opportunities to visualize their bright futures as fathers. I’ve seen little boys put a doll to their chest, as if to nurse the baby, only to have a parent snatch the doll away as if the action were evil. Boys can be as tender and loving as girls if we will let them. Why don’t we help our boys look forward to becoming fathers just like we help our girls look forward to becoming mothers?

 

I know a woman who would tell her sons a bedtime story about themselves every night. “One day you will grow up, and fall in love with a beautiful young woman whom you will take to the temple, and you will be married forever and ever and you will have children that climb on your back and ride on your shoulders and they will adore you and you will be so happy.” The story began as a fairy tale for a small boy, but the little boys believed in the fairy tale and made it come true.

 

My head actually hurts when I try to read that.  How could a sane person (who claims to actually be a mental health professional) write something like that?  The desire to be a mother or father is unrelated to homosexual (or heterosexual) feelings.  This is proven by the heterosexual people who don't want kids, and the many, many gay people who do want kids (and have them!)

 

I honestly wonder if she had ever met and spent time around adult homosexuals.  Especially those who adopt and raise children. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by cinepro

[rockpond]

So you think those points are good because you actually believe them, or because, despite (or because of) their falsity, they are useful to manipulate people?

 

Is it the "gays commit suicide because heteros disapprove of sodomy" trope that you like best?

 

I'm sorry if you feel manipulated by them.

 

The "trope" that you refer to is not something I've suggested.  You could try to understand the actual point being made... but I won't spell it out for you.

[The Nehor]

From the feedback and comments I've read, this quote is one from the article that is offensive to parents of gay children (and I can understand why it is):

 

Something being offensive does not make it untrue.

 

I know many people who are terrified of marriage because of their parents. I see no reason not to believe it might influence others in unhealthy ways to have bad parental relationship role models. Of course it becomes dangerous to generalize. I was terrified of marriage for some time and my parents are happy together and have a great relationship.

[ALarson]

Something being offensive does not make it untrue.

 

I know many people who are terrified of marriage because of their parents. I see no reason not to believe it might influence others in unhealthy ways to have bad parental relationship role models. Of course it becomes dangerous to generalize. I was terrified of marriage for some time and my parents are happy together and have a great relationship.

So you believe that having a gay child may be a reflection on the type of marriage you have with your spouse?  And, that a child may choose to be gay in order to avoid marrying someone from the opposite sex because their parent's marriage wasn't good? 

Edited September 29, 2015 by ALarson

[Buckeye]

You've got to hand it to Meridian. They seem to go overboard with any controversy. Consider their take down of Julie Rowe, aka "false prophet of doom": http://ldsmag.com/why-do-some-latter-day-saints-flock-to-false-prophets-of-doom/

[smac97]

So you think those points are good because you actually believe them, or because, despite (or because of) their falsity, they are useful to manipulate people?

 

Is it the "gays commit suicide because heteros disapprove of sodomy" trope that you like best?

 

So Rockpond appears to be approving of comments that blame gay suicides on the trope you mention.  He specifically identifies as "good points" the following comments:

 

• "It's time to go look for dead bodies because clearly this is damaging to LGBT people."
• "Maybe for your next article, you could look up statistics on suicide among gay youth, and more particularly gay Mormon youth."

A while back (early 2013), Rockpond sneeringly blamed the LDS Church and its members for causing gay suicides.  See here (And, of course, there are the "surprising number of active, faithful members of the church who have SSA" either left the church and/or chosen to end their lives under the crushing weight of our loving and compassionate outreach.").

 

At the time I said:

 

Ah, I was wondering when the unfortunately-frequent "Hey, Mormons! Either change your doctrines or I'll kill myself and blame you for it!" trope would be trotted out.

 

When it comes to people with SSA - and specifically young Latter-day Saints with SSA, I think it is tragic that some of these brothers and sisters are treated poorly by some because of that orientation. And I am appalled and saddened that anyone would kill themselves for any reason, including despairing Latter-day Saints. However, I firmly believe that homosexual conduct is not compatible with the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I also believe that there is a concerted effort to legitimize homosexual conduct and undermine any organization that feels differently. I also believe that this concerted effort bears substantial responsibility for inculcating vulnerable Latter-day Saints (those with same-sex attraction) with the notion that their orientation is either compatible with or superior in importance to the Restored Gospel.

 

At the end of the day, the Restored Gospel prohibits homosexual behavior (along with many other sexual behaviors). Consequently, people who advocate the notion that same-sex behavior is compatible with the Restored Gospel exhibit a profound lack of judgment. In attempting to alleviate despair among young Latter-day Saints with SSA, I fear that these folks may be tacitly recommending a course of action that will only deepen that despair and lead young LDS away from the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

RockPond complaint that this comment was "callous", to which I responded: 

 

Not callous. Mine was an appropriate response to the cynical exploitation of suicides as a guilt-trip tactic against those who believe in and defend the precepts of the Restored Gospel.

 

I find such exploitation repellant, and I am not shy about expressing my disgust with such exploitation.

...

I have no doubt that same-sex attraction can be a tremendous struggle. But rhetorical references to gay suicides in discussions such as this, with the attendant implication that such suicides are to be blamed on people who do not embrace/endorse same-sex behavior, are pretty much the equivalent of calling the other guy a Nazi. It just ain't cool.

 

While I'm at it, I suppose I should re-post some of my other remarks as well:

 

Perhaps the next time you and your heart could avoid suggesting that gay suicides are to be blamed on people who disagree with you. "Callous" I can handle, no problemo. But the "We've gotta embrace same-sex behavior 'cuz otherwise homosexuals will kill themselves and it'll be our fault" meme just doesn't work for me. AKAIK, there is no correlation between gay suicides and social opprobrium. In fact, it appears that the correlation is not between "gay suicide" and "social opprobrium," but between "gay" and "suicide."

 

According to a study in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted and mainstreamed for years, homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders, negating the mindset that society's lack of tolerance of homosexual behavior and lifestyle produces these psychoses. Youth are four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide. (Study of 5,998 Dutch adults) Theo G.M. Sandforte et al., "Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence," Archives of General Psychiatry 58, 10 (2001): 85-91.

 

Researchers found "an elevated suicide risk for homosexuals" even in tolerant Denmark. Ping Qin, Esben Agerbo, and Preben Bo Mortensen, "Suicide Risk in Relation to Socioeconomic, Demographic, Psychiatric, and Familial Factors: A National Register-Based Study of All Suicides in Denmark, 1981-1997." American Journal of Psychiatry 160 (2003): 765-772.

 

Moreover, people who like to go around blithely accusing active Latter-day Saints of fomenting gay suicide generally don't pay attention to (or are altogether ignorant of) stuff like this:

 

Active Latter-day Saints Seven Times Less Likely to Commit Suicide

 

SOURCE: American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419. Write-up in: "High Religious Commitment Linked to Less Suicide", by Charnicia E. Huggins (Reuters Health), Daily News (6 March 2002), URL: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20020

 

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Young Mormon men living in Utah who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church, study findings show.

 

The Mormon Church is known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

 

For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24.

 

"These results provide evidence that a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide," Dr. Sterling C. Hilton of Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, and his colleagues write in the March 1st issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.

 

Hmm. The Latter-day Saints who are at increased risk for suicide, then, are those who do not live according to the teachings of the LDS Church.

 

Put another way, the teachings of the LDS Church decrease the risk of suicide. This kinds contradicts the whole "We gotta let homosexuals ditch the Law of Chastity, else they'll kill themselves" narrative.

 

Here's a sincere question for you: Based on the data set forth above (and I could provide much more if need be): If folks are so concerned about homosexuals committing suicide, why aren't they encouraging them to to maintain high levels of religious observance (which includes, you know, abstinence from homosexual behavior)? And why are they instead trying to persuade/cajole the LDS Church into altering its teachings about homosexuality when living in accordance with those teachings appears to lower the risk of suicide?

 

RockPond also conceded as correct some of the key points made in the Meridian Magazine article.  For example, he said "I agree with you that there is much that we desire that we cannot act on."  Isn't that the same point made in the article?

 

And, sadly, RockPond also specifically apologized for his remarks about gay suicides (see here), so it's disappointing to see him apparently revive those accusations in this thread.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[bcuzbcuz]

Can you quote the part where she "diminished adoptive parents"?

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

What, you didn´t red the part about parent comments?, "She has your nose......etc, etc.

It`s in paragraph six. Read the opening paragraphs again and try to think outside the box. The comments are construed to say that only genetically related children to heterosexual parents can receive the heart-warming comments of proud parents. Do you not see the criticism it implies?

I was a foster parent to a severely handicapped child for 15 years. She didn`t have my nose, she didn`t have my skin colour, ....Did that make her less my child?

The children to my second wife have a different skin colour, they speak a different language, they definitely do not have my nose. But I`m proud to introduce them as my children.

The article tried to make the point that homosexual parents can never make similar "proud parent" comments about their children as heterosexual parents can.

I guess I need to rip off the "I am the proud parent of an A student" bumper sticker and replace it with "My step-child who is neither genetically related to me nor has any of my genetic brilliance has, never the less, achieved A grades. Congratulations are due to his mother and his dead-beat dad." I can see it as a big seller.

[smac97]

I'm sorry if you feel manipulated by them.

 

The "trope" that you refer to is not something I've suggested.  You could try to understand the actual point being made... but I won't spell it out for you.

 

You haven't "suggested" the trope, but you've endorsed it as a "good point" when expressed by someone else.

 

That seems like a distinction without a difference.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

Please read for comprehension.

How do you comprehend her statement that some people choose homosexuality and thus can be taught to choose heterosexuality? Seemed pretty clear to me.

[Bob Crockett]

The choice is whether to act on your desires or not. I don't think anyone believes you can choose your sexual orientation, except this author, it seems.

 Having lawyer friends who are bisexual, I'd say that engaging homosexual acts is usually and largely a "choice".   I read the biography of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen who reported having homosexual encounters in the seminary and decided that it just wasn't what he wanted to do.  We read on the other "board" about a major on-line apologist who, one day, left his wife and children and eventually picked up a homosexual lifestyle.  I'd say he chose to do those things.

 

Homosexuality operates on a continuum, according to Masters & Johnson.  There is a significant percentage of people willing to have a bisexual experience and a much smaller percentage who cannot be attracted to the opposite sex. 

 

I have also said many times that in the Church, as well as other conservative faiths, there are plenty of men who commit to follow Christ and suppress their homosexual urges in following Him.  I've known a few, including leaders.  As we've discussed before, there was a General Authority who was excommunicated, was rebaptized and serving as a high councilor when he died.   I'd say that's a choice.

[jkwilliams]

Having lawyer friends who are bisexual, I'd say that engaging homosexual acts is usually and largely a "choice". I read the biography of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen who reported having homosexual encounters in the seminary and decided that it just wasn't what he wanted to do. We read on the other "board" about a major on-line apologist who, one day, left his wife and children and eventually picked up a homosexual lifestyle. I'd say he chose to do those things.

Homosexuality operates on a continuum, according to Masters & Johnson. There is a significant percentage of people willing to have a bisexual experience and a much smaller percentage who cannot be attracted to the opposite sex.

I have also said many times that in the Church, as well as other conservative faiths, there are plenty of men who commit to follow Christ and suppress their homosexual urges in following Him. I've known a few, including leaders. As we've discussed before, there was a General Authority who was excommunicated, was rebaptized and serving as a high councilor when he died. I'd say that's a choice.

You have just repeated what I said. We don't choose our orientation, just whether we act on it. But I am glad we agree.

[ALarson]

 Having lawyer friends who are bisexual, I'd say that engaging homosexual acts is usually and largely a "choice". 

A choice for those who are bisexual?  

[Damien the Leper]

It's considerably less dangerous than the evil lie that homosexual entrapments are morally equivalent to divinely instituted authentic marriage.

Because your position is religiously informed does not make it correct. In a single sentence you delegitimize people you've never met and are unaware of theirs stories. The LDS position on this matter is not the "be all, end all"...not by a long shot.

I respect your ability to disagree with those of us in the other camp but your vitriolic, un-Christlike, un-charitable, unmerciful and condescending "you'll never be as good as us" attitude is vile, despicable and absolutely reprehensible. It's people like you who turn many off to the church.

This is hardly an emotive response but a carefully concluded characterization based on the evidence. I love you, Russell. I respect your apologetics as they are passionate, informed and insightful. But I have zero respect for your hatred of an area that you obviously are not well informed on. I'm not talking about trivial church pronouncements, political agendas or psychology. I'm talking about real people with real lives. It would be ridiculous and illogical to sit and have a conversation with a 16 year old gay kid but do so through a preconceived religious lens.

Look, I just want to live my life, grow to love my boyfriend, get married, live a stable life with a good career, pay taxes and maybe adopt kids. But I want this without idiots like Maggie Gallagher and Rick Santorum who think some guy's marriage to another guy is somehow ruining their marriages and society shoving their propaganda and rhetoric down my throat. I'm not asking for much.

[The Nehor]

So you believe that having a gay child may be a reflection on the type of marriage you have with your spouse?

 

Yes. The most important word there being "may".

 

And, that a child may choose to be gay in order to avoid marrying someone from the opposite sex because their parent's marriage wasn't good? 

 

Yes, this one I think I have seen but admittedly I cannot read minds. I know one guy who came from an abusive home where both parents abused each other though, with my limited knowledge, I would guess the father was far worse. He seemed afraid of becoming his father when he dated women and yet seemed to crave his father's affection which he never got (he kept trying to prove himself to his idiot loser dad). After developing some addictions he later went through a series of gay relationships with physically abusive men. I suspect it was to try to find validation in the classic way the abused often do.

 

It is possible that he was always gay and his earlier dating was due to societal pressure but I would guess he is not and fell into it as a maladaptive coping mechanism.

 

Either way I feel bad for the guy and think his parents deserve some of the blame.

[Teancum]

I thought that was self-evident. You have a choice. Basic agency. How is this controversial?

 

 

Oh?  Do you have a choice to be male or female?  Do you have a choice to be Caucasian or something else?