Bobbieaware Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I don't think "opposition in all things" has the least bit to do with male/female issues. Opposition in all things is usually referring to the dichotomy between good and evil.It also refers to the opposites that make existence and life possible: Atoms could not exist unless there are positively and negatively charged particles within each atom that create substance and structure through polarity. In the same way, men and women need each other if they are going to produce children. If a gay man is going to have a child, like it or not he needs a woman; and if a gay woman is going to have a child, like it or not she needs a man.
Bobbieaware Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Right, so are men sinful or are women sinful? Which is the dark side of the gender divide?See my post just below yours.
The Nehor Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Those who are afflicted in whatever respect it may be will be compensated eternally for whatever sacrifice they make in trying to do right and serve and obey God. I just found this in an old pamphlet authored by Charles W. Penrose, a Church leader of an earlier era:That often seems cold comfort now. I understand why when people suffer in this life that they doubt the goodness of God. If he gives these gifts now why should we expect better gifts later. I do not agree with the sentiment now (though I once did) but I definitely understand it. 1
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 4- The most basic question underlying most of these other questions is this. Is being alcoholic a mortal condition that alcoholics should expect to overcome in the next life or is an eternal expression of their creation? vs. 4- The most basic question underlying most of these other questions is this. Is being introverted a mortal condition that introverts should expect to overcome in the next life or is an eternal expression of their creation?I think there’s a difference between being something and having something. There is also a difference between having an unresolved sin and having a weakness or disadvantage, etc. There as a recent Ensign article about it; not sure which one, maybe this: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/04/it-isnt-a-sin-to-be-weak?lang=eng I think those who are more inclined to say “I’m an addict” rather than “I have an addiction” are more likely to hang on to that addiction—unless they say this as an early step of many to admit they have a problem and then separate themselves from their addiction and overcome it. A very ambitious introvert who wishes to change his type could also say, “I have introverted tendencies.” Whether we call them weaknesses, disadvantages or disabilities, I think we can overcome everything we want to, between our efforts in this life and the next. I think the Lord’s covenants (chastity and marriage, in the case of same-sex attraction) can help one overcome whatever obstacle he has in sustaining the principles of chastity and marriage. That is where the real strength is. The weakness is in the shame (see how the devil shamed Adam and Eve after the Fall), which very often society facilitates and enables.
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I don't think "opposition in all things" has the least bit to do with male/female issues. Opposition in all things is usually referring to the dichotomy between good and evil. LOL not that again! Let me copy and paste my notes that show otehrwise... LOL
Gray Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 It also refers to the opposites that make existence and life possible: Atoms could not exist unless there are positively and negatively charged particles within each atom that create substance and structure through polarity. In the same way, men and women need each other if they are going to produce children. If a gay man is going to have a child, like it or not he needs a woman; and if a gay woman is going to have a child, like it or not she needs a man. Men and women are not really opposites though. But which particles are the satanic ones - protons (+) or electrons (-)? What about the neutral neutrons (no charge)? Are they the fence sitters in this world view? What about animals that reproduce asexually? Where is their "opposition"?
Bobbieaware Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) That often seems cold comfort now. I understand why when people suffer in this life that they doubt the goodness of God. If he gives these gifts now why should we expect better gifts later. I do not agree with the sentiment now (though I once did) but I definitely understand it.If I understand you, I must say it is not a sentiment but a revelation from God. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)and, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)Why would a believer in the Almighty God of miracles lose faith and come to believe this life is a not a flash in the pan compared to eternity, and no longer believe the God of love, mercy and justice will much more than compensate those who sacrifice temporal pleasure and comfort to fulfill the commandments of God? What motivation would there be in worshipping God if what I say is not true? Fear? Edited September 30, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Gray Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 LOL not that again! Let me copy and paste my notes that show otehrwise... LOL
KevinG Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 If I understand you, I must say it is not a sentiment but a revelation from God.18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)and,21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)Why would a believer in the Almighty God of miracles lose faith and come to believe this life is a not a flash in the pan compared to eternity, and no longer believe the God of love, mercy and justice will much more than compensate those who sacrifice temporal pleasure and comfort to fulfill the commandments of God? What's motivation would there be in worshipping God if what I say is not true? Fear? I think the confusion comes when we try to define what God has identified as sin, as a normal variation on human behavior. Perhaps it is a normal carnal behavior, and it can bring us short term happiness. But anything that does not bring us closer to God, His plan, and His knowledge of what will bring us eternal joy would by its nature be settling for less than exaltation. 1
The Nehor Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 If I understand you, I must say it is not a sentiment but a revelation from God. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)and, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Romans 8:21)Why would a believer in the Almighty God of miracles lose faith and come to believe this life is a not a flash in the pan compared to eternity, and no longer believe the God of love, mercy and justice will much more than compensate those who sacrifice temporal pleasure and comfort to fulfill the commandments of God? What's motivation would there be in worshipping God if what I say is not true? Fear?Because we are not creatures of pure intellect. Passions and desires rule us and are supposed to rule us.If you have reached the point where mere intellectual acceptance of that fact makes you live the gospel fully you are either near translation or are less then human, I am not sure which. 1
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Men and women are not really opposites though. But which particles are the satanic ones - protons (+) or electrons (-)? What about the neutral neutrons (no charge)? Are they the fence sitters in this world view? What about animals that reproduce asexually? Where is their "opposition"? "Opposite sex" -- why do you use that term? The opposition to an organism's asexual process depends on the type (binary fission, budding, or spores), but generally has to do with one being the parent and the other being the offspring. The one being old and the other being new.
KevinG Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Anyone who does not see the opposition in heterosexual marriage has not been married, or is still honeymooning.
Bobbieaware Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Men and women are not really opposites though. But which particles are the satanic ones - protons (+) or electrons (-)? What about the neutral neutrons (no charge)? Are they the fence sitters in this world view? What about animals that reproduce asexually? Where is their "opposition"?Are you being deliberately obtuse? The eternal law of opposition in all things pertains to both the moral issues of good and evil encompassed within the law of God; and it ALSO pertains to morally neutral opposing principles (neither good nor evil) that exist within the nature of the universe. These things are easy enough for a child to understand.
The Nehor Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Anyone who does not see the opposition in heterosexual marriage has not been married, or is still honeymooning. Obviously the Plan of God is that every marriage relationship or group of relationships must have exactly one Y chromosome. The number of X chromosomes vary with the times. Hope this clarifies everything. 2
california boy Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Consistent with what I wrote in #91 on a personal level, God gives us (at least) two kinds of answers: explanations and guidance. The policy reflects the guidance from above, not the explanation. As with individuals, the Church makes correct and faithful decisions without clear explanations, yet at the same time with crystal-clear guidance from the Lord (these are two different types of answers). No one need break himself against the doctrines we do have and the policy in place, as there certainly remains comfort and perspective to be found in the Lord, for all involved. God structured his universe upon an everlasting and immutable principle of opposition in all things. For this reason, he commanded all of his children to engage in male/female coupling through the institution of committed marriage so as to make it possible for men and women to multiply and replenish the earth with children in a manner that accords to his will (and to ultimately bring about the continuation of populating new worlds in eternity). For these reasons, I believe same sex attraction is a manifestation of the carnal nature that came about as a consequence of the fall of man; and except for the sons of perdition, all will eventually be healed from the effects of the fall when all things are set in their proper order and all men and women are reconciled to the will of God as a prerequisite to being forgiven and entering a post-resurrection kingdom of heavenly glory. This is my carefully considered opinion -- an opinion that accords with the scriptures and the counsel of the living prophets of God. These are the exact kinds of posts I was referring to when I wrote: Counsel him to listen to the Spirit in the choices he makes. They may very well be different for him then expectations of others. As you have already found out, the expectations of others can be toxic. If they haven't dealt with this issue, they really have no understanding of it. It is all just a theory where they piece together scriptures and talks to try and come up with some design that fits the answers they want to a very complexed issue. Like the member of the first quorum of 70 said. The church is struggling to find the answers. If they don't have the answers to your sons questions, I doubt very much that a poster on this board or a person writing a magazine article is going to quote a scripture or talk that will make any sense to your son. Neither one of these posters could actually answer any of the questiions that HappyJack actually asked. Instead these are glib answers that gloss over the real issues gay members ask. These questions are some of the questions that the member of the first quorum of 70 were probably referring to when he said the church was still searching for answers from God. Can either one of you posters point to a revelation scripture or even accepted doctrine on whether a gay person will have to become straight in the next life in order to be exalted? And if a gay person has chosen to remain celibate throughout his entire mortal life, what will change that will want him to be with someone of the opposite sex for eternity?? Just what is he overcoming since it is not a sin to be gay? This is exactly why I suggested listening to the Spirit rather than the OPINIONS of so many who have probably not spent nearly the time in fasting and prayer seeking the Spirit for real answers to a real person that you and your family have. Trust in God with all your heart and lean not on the guessings and speculations of others. 2
Bobbieaware Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Because we are not creatures of pure intellect. Passions and desires rule us and are supposed to rule us.If you have reached the point where mere intellectual acceptance of that fact makes you live the gospel fully you are either near translation or are less then human, I am not sure which.Excuse me if I am naive enough to believe the prophets. It's called living faith in the infinite and eternal atoning and healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ suffered the sum total of all human suffering, degradation and spiritual alienation and it worked out marvelously well for him. So why shouldn't we believe the prophets when they say as long as we keep the faith it will more than work out for the best for us as well? I'm mystified.
ttribe Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Excuse me if I am naive enough to believe the prophets. It's called living faith in the infinite and eternal atoning and healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ suffered the sum total of all human suffering, degradation and spiritual alienation and it worked out marvelously well for him. So why shouldn't we believe the prophets when they say as long as we keep the faith it will more than work out for the best for us as well? I'm mystified. More like, sanctimonious. 3
Gray Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 "Opposite sex" -- why do you use that term? The opposition to an organism's asexual process depends on the type (binary fission, budding, or spores), but generally has to do with one being the parent and the other being the offspring. The one being old and the other being new. We use that term because we're not precise with our language.
Gray Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Are you being deliberately obtuse? The eternal law of opposition in all things pertains to both the moral issues of good and evil encompassed within the law of God; and it ALSO pertains to morally neutral opposing principles (neither good nor evil) that exist within the nature of the universe. These things are easy enough for a child to understand. I'm just showing you that your theory about "opposition" breaks down very quickly once you actually examine how things really work. Edited September 30, 2015 by Gray 2
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 We use that term because we're not precise with our language. I said, "you" -- I am very precise when I use it!
jkwilliams Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 These are the exact kinds of posts I was referring to when I wrote: Neither one of these posters could actually answer any of the questiions that HappyJack actually asked. Instead these are glib answers that gloss over the real issues gay members ask. These questions are some of the questions that the member of the first quorum of 70 were probably referring to when he said the church was still searching for answers from God. Can either one of you posters point to a revelation scripture or even accepted doctrine on whether a gay person will have to become straight in the next life in order to be exalted? And if a gay person has chosen to remain celibate throughout his entire mortal life, what will change that will want him to be with someone of the opposite sex for eternity?? Just what is he overcoming since it is not a sin to be gay? This is exactly why I suggested listening to the Spirit rather than the OPINIONS of so many who have probably not spent nearly the time in fasting and prayer seeking the Spirit for real answers to a real person that you and your family have. Trust in God with all your heart and lean not on the guessings and speculations of others. Well said. What I see is people seeing these issues through ideological lenses, so where you and I see individuals and families, they see rigid rules and categories applied to all situations. It's easy to condemn "sodomites" and "perverts" until it's your son or sister or friend. "Suppressing" unwanted desires sounds great until you realize that you're telling someone they have to live a life devoid of physical affection, let alone sexual intimacy. No, we get shallow reassurances that God didn't intend for people to live this way, and it will all be "fixed" or "healed" in the next life. It all comes across to me about as helpful as a Hallmark sympathy card. 1
KevinG Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 If you dismiss everything you disagree with as glib or sanctimonious then why start a discussion? Try the Mormon preaching and editorializing board instead.
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 These questions are some of the questions that the member of the first quorum of 70 were probably referring to when he said the church was still searching for answers from God.And divine guidance always comes before divine explanations. I believe they seek guidance and are led to explanations as the Lord deems necessary. This is exactly why I suggested listening to the Spirit rather than the OPINIONS of so many who have probably not spent nearly the time in fasting and prayer seeking the Spirit for real answers to a real person that you and your family have. Trust in God with all your heart and lean not on the guessings and speculations of others. This is exactly what I've been saying (in so many words).
CV75 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Well said. What I see is people seeing these issues through ideological lenses, so where you and I see individuals and families, they see rigid rules and categories applied to all situations. It's easy to condemn "sodomites" and "perverts" until it's your son or sister or friend. "Suppressing" unwanted desires sounds great until you realize that you're telling someone they have to live a life devoid of physical affection, let alone sexual intimacy. No, we get shallow reassurances that God didn't intend for people to live this way, and it will all be "fixed" or "healed" in the next life.It all comes across to me about as helpful as a Hallmark sympathy card.Sounds like you need a sympathy card! LOL
california boy Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) If you dismiss everything you disagree with as glib or sanctimonious then why start a discussion? Try the Mormon preaching and editorializing board instead. Because they both did not address even one of happyjacks questions. Their answers were glib, and completely glossed over the questions. Or more truthfully, they seemed to imply they had an answer when the church has none. Here is the question waiting for a real answer that is not just an opinion. Because you are talking about someone's eternal exaltation, opinions just seem to be a bit inadequate. Can either one of you posters point to a revelation scripture or even accepted doctrine on whether a gay person will have to become straight in the next life in order to be exalted? And if a gay person has chosen to remain celibate throughout his entire mortal life, what will change that will want him to be with someone of the opposite sex for eternity?? Just what is he overcoming since it is not a sin to be gay? Edited September 30, 2015 by california boy 1
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