Meridian Magazine: Can You Help Your Children Choose Heterosexuality? (Answer: Yes)

[KevinG]

No one is saying agency takes a back seat to lusts. I do not believe you or I have a choice in being sexually attracted to men or women. Do you?

 

I have not had the experience.  And I am vehemently opposed to aversion therapy and other coercive measures.

 

However I am also a recovered addict, and I know even strong drives can be tempered in order to trade short term pleasure or escape for longer term joy and peace.

[jkwilliams]

Obviously homosexuality exists.

 

The question is, is it eternal? (or Must it exist)?

 

I am not convinced.

What do you mean by "must it exist"? It exists. Are you suggesting you can make it go away? I understand the LDS position that it won't exist eternally, but we get into trouble believing that we can make it not exist in this mortal life.

[ttribe]

The article mentions two.

 

Ugggh, two out of how many in the world?

 

Nevertheless, John Williams has articulated the problems with using this article as the basis for your argument much better than I.  Perhaps you could respond to him?

[jkwilliams]

I have not had the experience.  And I am vehemently opposed to aversion therapy and other coercive measures.

 

However I am also a recovered addict, and I know even strong drives can be tempered in order to trade short term pleasure or escape for longer term joy and peace.

Of course, but the drives don't go away. Anyone who says they will is lying.

[CV75]

It doesn't matter whether or not he was a real person - either your idea can withstand scrutiny or it can't, right? I don't think Lehi's teachings on opposition have anything to do with gender. It's really about good vs bad. Which is why I asked you which gender is the evil one. 

 

 

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility

 

even the forbidden fruit in opposition to thetree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter

I’m glad you brought up Lehi’s teachings on opposition. “An opposition” can be either complementary (by receiving the atonement), adversarial (by rejecting the atonement), liberating (by enabling choice or agency), or differentiating (by providing a reference to exist). The law of opposition is laid out along with the story of Adam and Eve and the atonement. All these relationships are seen in the chapter. Here is how gender is covered by these principles:

 

Opposition as adversarial: righteousness and wickedness, holiness and misery, good and bad (verse 11).

 

Opposition as complementary (both by receiving the atonement, and by answering the ends of the atonement): Verses 15, and 19-25 show the complementary role of parents (mother and father, opposite sexes) in bringing the plan of happiness (“joy”) to fruition. This is the model for all God’s children. Verse 10 shows how, by answering the ends of the atonement, punishment and happiness are complementary.

 

The teachings about mercy and justice being reconciled in the Atonement reflects a complementary relationship between two otherwise opposing principles. This opposition between mercy and justice is demonstrated in other scriptures (Alma 42, Alma 34, Mosiah 3 and other places). Wisdom is associated with knowledge and power with faith; these opposing forces are both good and work well together according to Alma 32. All the interactions contribute to His eternal purposes (the immorality and eternal life of man which involves exaltation and the continuation of the seeds, etc.) and are all expressed through the experience of Adam and Eve, people of opposing genders brought into a marriage.

 

President Hunter spoke of opposition in terms of gravity, friction and resistance (life’s adversities and challenges)—not in an adversarial but in a complementary, strengthening sense.

 

Opposition as liberating by enabling choice or agency: “…the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life,,, so that he should act for himself. …man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.” (verse 16). When Lehi mentions the tree of knowledge and the tree of life, they are both good. One is forbidden and the other (with all the others) not, but that does not make one good and one bad.

 

The two trees were originally in opposition to be enticing to Adam and Eve (verse 16). The Atonement brings them together as one so that God’s purposes are fulfilled. For now, we access the tree of knowledge through our physical/temporal experience, and access the tree of life through our spiritual/eternal experience. Because of the Resurrection, our access to the tree of life will be also accessed physically and our access to knowledge becomes eternal. Thus opposing principles, all good, are brought together.

 

Opposition as differentiating by providing a contrasting reference point for existence: “if it should be one body [and not a compound in one] it must needs remain as dead …wherefore, all things must have vanished away” (Verses 11 and 13). If all things were the same thing, there would be no sense of or viability in what anything is. (Gay marriage does not form a compound in one of the partners because they are of the same gender. The compound in one of 2 Nephi 2 specifies that opposing principles be brought together.)

[KevinG]

Ugggh, two out of how many in the world?

 

Nevertheless, John Williams has articulated the problems with using this article as the basis for your argument much better than I.  Perhaps you could respond to him?

 

Between this grilling of Danzo's use of social constructs and your insistence I was using the word butthurt incorrectly, I'm getting a pedantic vibe from your comments.

[jkwilliams]

I have not had the experience.  And I am vehemently opposed to aversion therapy and other coercive measures.

 

However I am also a recovered addict, and I know even strong drives can be tempered in order to trade short term pleasure or escape for longer term joy and peace.

To make an obvious analogy, Danzo's point is about as valid as saying that blond hair isn't real because there's a tribe in Africa that doesn't have a word for blond because there are no blonds in their tribe.

[CV75]

The "compound in one" is an adjoining principle. “Compound in one” means a union or placement of any two opposing principles. The two opposing genders (as in opposite sexes) are brought together through marriage to create their “compound in one” (Genesis 2:24). That they are “opposite” is shown in the several scriptures that use the two genders in the contrasting sense (showing “oppositeness”, along with other contrasting principles:

 

1 Nephi 8: 27, “And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female…”

 

2 Nephi 10: 16, “Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female…”

 

2 Nephi 26: 33, “… he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female…”

Alma 1: 30, “… therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church…”

 

Alma 11: 44, “Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous…”

 

A "compound in one" does not oppose itself but acts in concert to bring to pass the purposes of God and not vanish away (2 Nephi 2:11-13). The "compound in one" is able to do this because its component elements are harmonized or reconciled through the atonement, where God exercises mercy and justice as a "compound in one."

 

Eve, “an help meet” for Adam  is consistently referred to as a female character, a woman, one of the first the parents (meaning mother and father, as defined by Nephi). The only time the phrase is ever used in scripture is in reference to Eve.

 

Two of the same element cannot form a “compound in one,” so two of the same gender can’t meet the criterion for “helpmeet” in the sense of mutual opposition and atonement. Two like things exist without contrast or distinction, and without an opposing complement remain as dead, having no “at-one-ment.”

 

The various definitions of “opposition” in the dictionaries are not at all adversarial relationships. From one of these definitions, gender is likewise the most basic, distinct unit of character or attribute that distinguishes the children of God from one another.

[ttribe]

Between this grilling of Danzo's use of social constructs and your insistence I was using the word butthurt incorrectly, I'm getting a pedantic vibe from your comments.

 

What can I say?  I'm an accountant.  Pedantic is in my blood.  I'll bet there are "some cultures" who don't know what the word "pedantic" means, though.  So, it must not be real.

Edited September 30, 2015 by ttribe

[KevinG]

Of course, but the drives don't go away. Anyone who says they will is lying.

 

The scales don't balance in mortality, and I don't expect them to.  Navigating the covenants we have made with God require faith, hope, and charity.

 

I would never claim that drives go away.  We can dull them with time and self discipline to not expose ourselves to risky situations, but they are always there.  

[CV75]

To make an obvious analogy, Danzo's point is about as valid as saying that blond hair isn't real because there's a tribe in Africa that doesn't have a word for blond because there are no blonds in their tribe.

I think the point is, human sexuality is human sexuality no matter how we try to categorize it. The same with human race, there is only one but we have come up with labels based on anything but.

[Danzo]

Yes, thanks for that. Fascinating. They said the same thing I just did: homosexuality may be "unarticulated" in the culture, but still present. 

 

If you read the article, the people couldn't understand what was meant, I would find it difficult to believe it was present.

[Scott Lloyd]

As though to add fuel to the fire, I'm pasting in this item that just showed up in my in-box. I do it purely as an FYI:

 

***NEWS RELEASE***


For Immediate Release
September 30, 2015




Safe Exit Summit a Place for Parents to Find Peace, Restoration and Resources

Conference This Weekend in Washington, D.C., Helps Parents Support Loved Ones Struggling with Sexual Identity Issues
 

RICHMOND, Va.—When sons or daughters reveal they are homosexual or struggling with same-sex attractions or gender identity issues, it can be a shock to parents. But there are resources available that can make a world of difference. Regina Griggs knows this well, as she was once one of those parents.

Griggs, executive director of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays (PFOX, www.pfox.org), the nation’s leading advocacy organization that offers love and support to families and friends of individuals with unwanted same-sex attractions and gender confusion, will be one of the many expert speakers at this weekend’s Safe Exit Summit in Washington—an event designed to help navigate some of these complicated challenges.

The third annual conference, following September’s Ex-Gay Awareness Month, will aim to encourage, educate and edify parents, church leaders, family members and friends, as well as those struggling with gender confusion and unwanted same-sex attraction.

“When our children, whether in adolescence or adulthood, struggle with homosexuality or other sexual or gender issues, it can be alarming to parents at first,” Griggs said. “They don’t know where to turn, if their relationships with their kids will ever be the same, or what the future holds. But rather than hide or retreat, parents must know that there is help available, and that change is possible. At the Safe Exit Summit, our passionate speakers are proof, and as they share their stories, parents will see they are not on this journey alone and that they will be stronger on the other side with the support and prayers of people just like them.”

Registration is open for the two-day conference on Oct. 2-3 at www.safeexitsummit.org, and an inspiring lineup of speakers will offer hope and resources, answer questions and share their own stories. A promo code of SAFECHURCH2015 gives pastors and church leaders a special rate of $99 for Safe Exit Summit.

Friday, Oct. 2 will feature a legislator education day on Capitol Hill for those who support ex-gays and individuals with unwanted same-sex attraction, as well as a time of praise with musician Dennis Jernigan and the viewing of the documentary “Such Were Some of You,” produced by Safe Exit Summit speaker Dr. David Kyle Foster. Oct. 3 features the full lineup of speakers, along with breakout sessions, a luncheon, a panel discussion and the presentation of the Friends of Ex-Gays Freedom Award to attorney Charles LiMandri, who defended the counseling group JONAH this summer.

Those traveling to the Washington, D.C., area for the Safe Exit Summit will be connected with the host hotel upon registration. The hotel—close to the conference site—is offering attendees a discounted rate, a free breakfast and other amenities. Registration for the two-day event is still open, and co-hosting with PFOX is Voice of the Voiceless and Equality And Justice For All.

Serving as the keynote speaker for the Safe Exit Summit will be Dr. Michael Brown, one of the most respected conservative voices in America and author of the new book, “Outlasting the Gay Revolution: Eight Principles for Long-term Cultural Change.”

Brown is widely considered to be the world’s foremost Messianic Jewish apologist. Since coming to faith in 1971 as a 16-year-old, heroin-shooting Jewish rock drummer, he has devoted his life to fostering awakening in the Church, sparking moral and cultural revolution in society, raising up gospel laborers for the nations and reaching out to his own Jewish people.

He is the host of the nationally syndicated “Line of Fire” radio program (Brown will broadcast live from the Safe Exit Summit on Oct. 2) and is the president of FIRE School of Ministry and a professor of Bible and Hebrew Studies at several leading seminaries. Brown has preached in more than 25 nations and is the author of 25 books and numerous scholarly and popular articles. He has debated Jewish rabbis, agnostic professors and gay activists on radio, TV and college campuses. Read more at askdrbrown.org or view his columns for The Christian Post.

For information on additional conference speakers, visit www.SafeExitSummit.org/speakers.

PFOX is a national non-profit organization that supports families and educates the public on sexual orientation and the ex-gay community. PFOX supports an inclusive environment for the ex-gay community and works to eliminate negative perceptions and discrimination against former homosexuals by conducting public education and outreach to further individual self-determination and respect for all Americans, regardless of sexual orientation.

PFOX believes that every person seeking positive life change needs the love and support of family, friends, the community and the church, and strives to offer a place for help, a place for truth, and a place for ex-gays to participate in the conversation about same-sex attraction. PFOX families love their homosexual children unconditionally, believing that unconditional love between them and their child is based on treating each other with kindness and respect. Each year, men and women with unwanted same-sex attractions make the personal decision to seek help in overcoming a homosexual identity through gender-affirming programs, including counseling, support groups, faith-based ministries and other non-judgmental environments.

For more information on PFOX, visit its web site at www.PFOX.org, its Facebook page, its Twitter feed @PFOX4U or email info@pfox.org.

Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays is a 501©(3) national non-profit organization with a mission to support families and educate the public on sexual orientation and the ex-gay community. PFOX is committed to supporting parents and friends of homosexuals who want help, hope and community, and exists to provide education and resources. PFOX works toward understanding and acceptance of the ex-gay community.
 

###
 

 

[ttribe]

If you read the article, the people couldn't understand what was meant, I would find it difficult to believe it was present.

 

He obviously read the article.  Did you consider the accuracy of the peoples' responses and whether their culture would allow for such an admission?

[Danzo]

 They also suggest that there could be a genetic component, such that in that small community there is no genetic predisposition to homosexuality. 

 

I was not aware that genes have been identified that determine attraction.

[jkwilliams]

The scales don't balance in mortality, and I don't expect them to.  Navigating the covenants we have made with God require faith, hope, and charity.

 

I would never claim that drives go away.  We can dull them with time and self discipline to not expose ourselves to risky situations, but they are always there.

What would you say to someone who said you could simply choose not to have those drives at all?

[KevinG]

What would you say to someone who said you could simply choose not to have those drives at all?

 

God bless you that you have never faced temptation and failed.  The rest of us human beings aren't as lucky.  (read with appropriate dripping sarcastic tone).

[Gray]

On the contrary, the Church has made it clear that homosexuality is a condition that will not transcend mortality.

 

From the pamphlet "God Loveth His Children."

 

This notion that "the Church "doesn't even claim to know how these things work in the eternities" is a persistent and pervasive myth that deserves to die a quick and merciful death.

 

That one is already sounding pretty dated. I refer to this sentence:

 

"While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life."

 

I think the church is wiser now and no longer makes claims that people can change their sexual orientation either through prayer or discredited practices like "reparative therapy". 

 

But, even on the more contemporary Mormons and Gays website, it makes it clear that the current position that sexual orientation is not something that will persist in the resurrection if you are gay. So you're right, church leadership has taken a position on the issue. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Gray

[jkwilliams]

I was not aware that genes have been identified that determine attraction.

Hence the word "could."

[KevinG]

I was not aware that genes have been identified that determine attraction.

 

You didn't see X-men The Last Stand?

 

Seriously be it nature or nurture we are still faced with the choice to feed or tame our appetites.  

[jkwilliams]

If you read the article, the people couldn't understand what was meant, I would find it difficult to believe it was present.

What you find difficult to believe is irrelevant. The researchers themselves said they didn't know.

[KevinG]

The article link does not work now, and I cannot find it on Meridian.  Sounds like the excrement hit the air agitator.

[ttribe]

The article link does not work now, and I cannot find it on Meridian.  Sounds like the excrement hit the air agitator.

 

Yes.  It was removed as of this morning.

[Danzo]

What you find difficult to believe is irrelevant. The researchers themselves said they didn't know.

 

 

From the article

 

sounds like they had a conclusion

 

"Given all this, the Hewletts conclude, "Homosexuality and masturbation are rare or nonexistent [in these two cultures], not because they are frowned upon or punished, but because they are not part of the cultural models of sexuality in either ethnic group.""

Edited September 30, 2015 by Danzo

[jkwilliams]

From the article

 

sounds like they had a conclusion

 

"Given all this, the Hewletts conclude, "Homosexuality and masturbation are rare or nonexistent [in these two cultures], not because they are frowned upon or punished, but because they are not part of the cultural models of sexuality in either ethnic group.""

Of course they had a conclusion, as you so kindly quote. They also said the following:

When I put this to the Hewletts, they replied that indeed, the desire may exist in some individuals in these groups, but we simply do not know.

And this.

If homosexual orientation has a genetic component to it -- and there is increasing evidence that it does, in many cases -- then it would not be surprising that this complex human trait (one that involves non-procreative efforts) would be found in some populations but not others.

I don't know how to say more plainly than I have that it's not as cut-and-dried as you suggest, and even if it was, it's extremely problematic to extrapolate from a tiny, isolated population.