Why Do I Bother?

[The Nehor]

So nearly everyone will repent but as it turns out most won't be fully forgiven because most won't be exalted? So everyone is forgiven, except the few unrepentant, but they are eternally less because they simply didn't believe hard enough at some point?

 

No, some will just repent too late to get exaltation. If there is movement between kingdoms I expect it will just be a delay but I have no idea if that is possible or not.

[jkwilliams]

This is where the book Believing Christ comes in. Some people believe Christ is there for everyone and all sins except for themselves. If asked if someone else can be forgiven they strongly believe they can, but when asked if they themselves can be forgiven they give all sorts of reasons why it would be hard to forgive someone like them. In a nutshell the author shows they believe in Christ, but don't believe Christ when he says he is there for them.

 

I read that book years ago, and it really helped me. Because of a GA's visit to our mission, I came to believe I would never be "good enough" in my life. Reading that book helped me get out of that trap, but I wonder why it is that the lack of belief in being personally forgiven is so common in the church (at least from my experience)? Why is it that so many don't understand the Atonement until they read a book not published by the church? My guess is that there is so much emphasis on becoming perfect that we gloss over our total inability to perfect ourselves. Too often I have seen the Atonement portrayed as something that Christ does only after you have scratched and clawed and worn yourself out perfecting yourself. That's not how it works.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think it's because the church puts so much pressure on people to be perfect and more righteous than other people since we are the one and only true church. A lot to live up to. Also we have to be on the ball 24/7 with church callings home teaching scripture study etc. We invest so much of our lives into the church that when we mess up we feel like we failed our lifelong duties and that guilt can be overwhelming when Satan gets in our heads causing guilt. So much pressure from leaders and GAs.

[thesometimesaint]

The Lord takes EVERYTHING into consideration, but we are still expected to do our part(however large or small) that maybe.

SEE https://www.lds.org/bible-videos/videos/the-parable-of-the-talents?lang=eng

Edited September 16, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Tacenda]

I think it's because the church puts so much pressure on people to be perfect and more righteous than other people since we are the one and only true church. A lot to live up to. Also we have to be on the ball 24/7 with church callings home teaching scripture study etc. We invest so much of our lives into the church that when we mess up we feel like we failed our lifelong duties and that guilt can be overwhelming when Satan gets in our heads causing guilt. So much pressure from leaders and GAs.

Yes, and I think what members need to do is not take it too seriously.  Listen or find messages that aren't so overwhelming, they're there.  I think Elder Ballard's recent talk, mentioned on the board, was good to a point.  But not to those that do all they can and still don't experience the "living waters".  And feel it's not enough, and is Satan entering in when they aren't doing all they can.  It's like people are on a race track and Satan is nipping at their heels if they don't do enough.  Or if they fall away or become inactive, their family members may not have anything to do with anyone who's been affected by Satan. 

 

Elder Ballard told the South Area how well they've been doing but cautioned that they could do better, not his exact words, but wonder how many took that too far.  The members who do the best IMO, are the ones that love the church for it's social community, like the moral teachings, and really think God loves his children etc.  But when we bring Satan in the picture it can do more harm than good.  Having Christ as our redeemer/defender should give us more confidence.  Not throw in Satan as good measure to get the members to work harder, IMO.  Throw in a lot about forgiveness and that the Saviour took care of sin.  So the recipient can do good out of love for their Saviour's gift.  Not for fear Satan's gonna get them.  I liked the talk, but I also think differently than I use to in the church, once felt like I had to check off so many boxes. 

[rpn]

Didn't read any but OP

 

I am sorry you feel lost.   You might remember the mists and the darkness of Lehi's vision.  The only requirement for getting through it was keeping your hand on the rod.   So think of that as the purpose, and keep living the commandments and loving God.   Turn the rest over to God, or simply accept that you are weighed down my your internal discussions and outside research on them, and might be there a while, but you can be alright anyway as you live the way Jesus wants you to live.

 

And use good music, art and beauty and service to those within your sphere of influence, and within your community to push away the thoughts that you cannot resolve, but continue to trouble you.

[VideoGameJunkie]

It seems kind of interesting that a major prophet of the church Brigham Young, said that only those who enter into polygamy sealings will be Gods in the next life. So are we to expect getting additional wives in the eternities or was the prophet wrong?

[The Nehor]

I read that book years ago, and it really helped me. Because of a GA's visit to our mission, I came to believe I would never be "good enough" in my life. Reading that book helped me get out of that trap, but I wonder why it is that the lack of belief in being personally forgiven is so common in the church (at least from my experience)? Why is it that so many don't understand the Atonement until they read a book not published by the church? My guess is that there is so much emphasis on becoming perfect that we gloss over our total inability to perfect ourselves. Too often I have seen the Atonement portrayed as something that Christ does only after you have scratched and clawed and worn yourself out perfecting yourself. That's not how it works.

 

I think part of it is the independent streak a lot of people in the church have. There is also an arrogance amongst some that they believe if they really really tried they could be perfect. Add to that that some people think mistakes and human weakness are sin and things can spiral out of control.

 

I think it's because the church puts so much pressure on people to be perfect and more righteous than other people since we are the one and only true church. A lot to live up to. Also we have to be on the ball 24/7 with church callings home teaching scripture study etc. We invest so much of our lives into the church that when we mess up we feel like we failed our lifelong duties and that guilt can be overwhelming when Satan gets in our heads causing guilt. So much pressure from leaders and GAs.

 

I found my burden eased when I started trying to get more of my plans approved by God. I was almost shocked at how lenient he was. One night I was dead tired and just wanted to lay in my hammock with some popcorn and watch a movie but felt I should help with a move in the ward that was about a 35 minute drive away. I offhandedly prayed expecting to be told to help the person move and got the answer to pop popcorn. Found out that Sunday that they had a ton of people show up and finished in 20 minutes.

 

It seems kind of interesting that a major prophet of the church Brigham Young, said that only those who enter into polygamy sealings will be Gods in the next life. So are we to expect getting additional wives in the eternities or was the prophet wrong?

 

Maybe, maybe not. I personally doubt it is necessary but I am not worried about it if it is. Most of the difficulties associated with polygamy that made it such a trial won't exist in the next life.

[Rain]

I read that book years ago, and it really helped me. Because of a GA's visit to our mission, I came to believe I would never be "good enough" in my life. Reading that book helped me get out of that trap, but I wonder why it is that the lack of belief in being personally forgiven is so common in the church (at least from my experience)? Why is it that so many don't understand the Atonement until they read a book not published by the church? My guess is that there is so much emphasis on becoming perfect that we gloss over our total inability to perfect ourselves. Too often I have seen the Atonement portrayed as something that Christ does only after you have scratched and clawed and worn yourself out perfecting yourself. That's not how it works.

I don't know. I didn't read it for a number of years, but everyone kept saying I should so I finally picked it up. I was disappointed because there was nothing new there to me. Everything I read in the scriptures and conference talks were in sync.

The only thing I can think of is the idea of hinting. John Lund talks of this idea. He feels you should say what you mean (and I agree). He then says in a relationship if you say what you mean then the other person should assume that is all that is meant.

The problem is many people were raised with hinting or they naturally come by it. If the prophet says we should go to the temple more he means as a whole, but you are going to get the hint experienced lady who is at the temple 10 hours a day every day thinking the prophet is hinting that she is not going enough. She automatically assumes it is the best (good, better, best) thing for her instead of prayerfully evaluating the counsel to find out what id best for her.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I would love exaltation, but am unsure if I'll ever find the right girl to get sealed to and I never see myself as a Stake President, Temple, President, Mission President, or General Authority so I doubt I'll ever be invited to receive the 2nd anointing either. I just have to be able to learn to wortk with the cards I've been dealt.

[Rain]

Video - your exhalation is not dependent on you finding a wife or become a stake president etc. In this life. It is dependent on you repenting as often as you need to, going to the Lord and asking what he wants of you and trying to do that all while having faith that Lord has done all that you cannot.

[VideoGameJunkie]

That's a pretty positive way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure I've been told I have to be sealed to a spouse in the temple to be able to achieve exaltation.

[Calm]

you don't have to be sealed in this life.

 

And in the next one, there will likely be millions of single women who are looking to be sealed as well and probably at least one of them will be happy with you as a spouse.

 

God promises that any commandment or blessing we are not able to do in this life through no fault of our own we will be able to achieve in this life.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hmm well I hope if I don't marry in this life that I fall under the "No fault of our own" category. My patriarchal blessing says I'll take one of Heavenly Father's choice daughters to one of the great temples HERE ON THE EARTH and be sealed together for time and all eternity. I hope I don't let my patriarchal blessing down.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-eternal-blessings-of-marriage?lang=eng

 

I feel sorry for any man who hasn’t yet made the choice to seek an eternal companion, and my heart weeps for the sisters who haven’t had the opportunity to marry. Some of you may feel lonely and unappreciated and cannot see how it will be possible for you to have the blessings of marriage and children or your own family. All things are possible to the Lord, and He keeps the promises He inspires His prophets to declare. Eternity is a long time. Have faith in those promises and live to be worthy of them so that in His time the Lord can make them come true in your life. With certainty, you will receive every promised blessing for which you are worthy.

 

[Stargazer]

I read that book years ago, and it really helped me. Because of a GA's visit to our mission, I came to believe I would never be "good enough" in my life. Reading that book helped me get out of that trap, but I wonder why it is that the lack of belief in being personally forgiven is so common in the church (at least from my experience)? Why is it that so many don't understand the Atonement until they read a book not published by the church? My guess is that there is so much emphasis on becoming perfect that we gloss over our total inability to perfect ourselves. Too often I have seen the Atonement portrayed as something that Christ does only after you have scratched and clawed and worn yourself out perfecting yourself. That's not how it works.

The problem as I see it is that when Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" those who read it (in English, at least), believe that this commandment commands us to achieve perfection, or as close to it as possible, in this life -- why would the Lord command that which was impossible (they think)? So it must be possible, and to work we go. Even the Book of Mormon continues the misunderstanding, for when Jesus repeats this directive to the Nephites, it is given (in English, again) as: "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Ne 12:48)

The clue here is that in the first time this was formulated, Jesus only spoke of his Father's perfection, not his own. Yet was he not perfect? Why would he not use his own self as the example? Well, consider the difference betwee the two formulations. The difference is that Christ had been resurrected, and he had gone through the Atonement. Therefore, one must conclude that the directive can only be fulfilled once one has been resurrected, and sanctified by the Atonement! It is not possible to achieve perfection in this life.

There's another thing to consider. The word is "perfect" in English. What is it in Koine Greek? It's τέλειοι, which according to Strong's Concordance (q.v.) does not connote perfection in the sense of without fault, but "perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, © specially of the completeness of Christian character."

In other words, you can be perfect without being perfect. If you get my drift.  And when you achieve this, you will be like Heavenly Father.  Who is an exalted being, something YOU cannot be in this life.

[name]

Hi Stem!

 

I'm a lost and fallen soul. I'll always be,

Yes, we all are friend.

 

 

 

I don't know that I'll dig my way out.

You won't! Nor will any of us that try to dig on our own.

You can spend the rest of your life digging, if you wish, but you need not.

Perhaps you should consider putting your shovel down - Rest - All of the digging has already been done - It is finished!

 

 

That's probably my problem and someone might conclude, well you just have to pray harder to fix yourself, or whatever.

There seems to be little doubt that some might make these conclusions, but I do not happen to be among them.

You need not pray harder to fix yourself as prayer doesn't fix!

 

 

Fine. I'm fine if that's the case.

It's not the case (No matter if you're fine with it or not)

 

 

Perhaps I'm one of those--he who many members look down upon

I wouldn't get overly concerned with where or how these "many members" look at you.

 

 

And let's face it, every message we've ever received would suggest by far most people won't be exalted.

If by "most people won't be exalted" you mean zero people will be exalted, then we agree

Every Sunday afternoon after I attend Church, these are the types of thoughts running through my head. I welcome your thoughts. I need fixing, after all.

If these are really the thoughts that run through your head every Sunday afternoon - after attending church - you may want to make a change - consider staying home and gardening, playing with your kids, attending a different church and/or just sleeping in next Sunday.

Just my advice!

Name

Edited September 22, 2015 by name

[Garden Girl]

Hmm well I hope if I don't marry in this life that I fall under the "No fault of our own" category. My patriarchal blessing says I'll take one of Heavenly Father's choice daughters to one of the great temples HERE ON THE EARTH and be sealed together for time and all eternity. I hope I don't let my patriarchal blessing down.

 

Then claim it and live for it... the promise is there...

 

GG

[stemelbow]

Hi Stem!

 

Yes, we all are friend.

We all always will be, huh? That's quite a revelation, name. If all we are is lost and fallen for eternity than what is eternity? I'd think we'd be better off just ending it all and fading out of eternity somehow.

 

You won't! Nor will any of us that try to dig on our own.

You can spend the rest of your life digging, if you wish, but you need not.

Perhaps you should consider putting your shovel down - Rest - All of the digging has already been done - It is finished!

Sure I could do that, but it seems antithetical to what I am. Why stop and rest when there is so much ahead of me? that'd just confuse me worse than all other paradoxes.

 

There seems to be little doubt that some might make these conclusions, but I do not happen to be among them.

You need not pray harder to fix yourself as prayer doesn't fix!

I agree'ish. Thanks.

 

It's not the case (No matter if you're fine with it or not)

How do you know the case so well? Seriously. Why pretend to know more than LDS folks?

 

I wouldn't get overly concerned with where or how these "many members" look at you.

Then you're better than the rest of us, but you haven't done a thing. Ah well...I can't take this not doing anything seriously, name. What do you do?

 

If by "most people won't be exalted" you mean zero people will be exalted, then we agree

Sounds even more boring than the LDS view of things. You sure you want nothingness for eternity?

 

If these are really the thoughts that run through your head every Sunday afternoon - after attending church - you may want to make a change - consider staying home and gardening, playing with your kids, attending a different church and/or just sleeping in next Sunday.

Just my advice!

Name

I've tried. they come anyway.

Nice to see you. and thanks for the advice, I might get to the point of not wanting to do anything, but I ain't there yet.

Edited September 24, 2015 by stemelbow

[Tacenda]

Stemelbow, would you mind me asking a question on this thread?  If so I'll delete right away.  I'm wondering if anyone knows if this institute class is offered to non student adult members. 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/foundations-of-the-restoration-teacher-manual?lang=eng

 

I know they use to offer classes but it seems they are fading away.  Or could be totally wrong.  Maybe if members like you and I had a classroom to discuss these things we wouldn't just rely on discussion boards to discuss.  Because we all know this isn't offered through the local ward or stake.

[name]

Hey Stem,

After reading your replies to my above post, I am nearly certain that we are having significant struggles with communication.Perhaps these struggles are, in large part, due to my failure to communicate what I intended to communicate to you in the first place. If this is the case, I offer you, old friend, my sincere apology.

Anyway, I hope this finds you well and peaceful.

Name

[Guest]

I'm a lost and fallen soul. I'll always be, I suppose. I don't know that I'll dig my way out. I'm troubled by doctrinal teaching and many things associated therewith. I'm sure I'm as faithless and foolish as any ever could be. That's probably my problem and someone might conclude, well you just have to pray harder to fix yourself, or whatever.Fine. I'm fine if that's the case. Perhaps it's me, inherently. Perhaps my eternal-self was meant to be a bit of a faithless fool who would never catch on and never be expected to be saved or exalted. Perhaps I'm one of those--he who many members look down upon and perhaps shrug because after all not all will be exalted. It simply won't happen. And let's face it, every message we've ever received would suggest by far most people won't be exalted. I've asked here a number of times why anyone would want exaltation if most will not get it? It seems to me it'd be far too painful to be he who is exalted while many of his loved ones are not. I couldn't bare it, myself, I figure, and so I'd probably be happiest in the lesser place anywho. Oh but there is pain in me wondering what'd be like to settle for something less. I don't know which eternal pain would be worst. Honestly. my hope is is that the Church is wrong in how it's defined things--he who is exalted and all that exaltation means. Maybe someday we'll learn all will be exalted. Well, I'd probably gladly accept if child rapists aren't, but I mean nearly all.I go to Church these days feeling like no one else gets it, realizing when it comes down to it, I'm probably the one who doesn't get it. Everything I hear at Church would be painful to everyone, it seems, who are not members (well save for a very few). I wish it was different, that Church was such a place that it was meaningful to more people. It's not and for thinking like that I'm rebellious, faithless and on the brink of apostasy to most of my supposed ward-family members. I think the Church makes mistakes, but overall hopes to do good. I don't see it as inspired as most in my ward do. I see it as semi-inspired, frankly, much like I see many people and orgs. The Church is little in the world...little in impact and little in influence (I realize many would argue for having such a small percentage we make a pretty big impact, which I concede, but it should be a bigger impact with more people, I'd argue). There are too many other things for God to work with to make a bigger impact, and probably does. If He does, that must mean something. I'm going with that, for now...the Church is just one tiny teeny little piece of all that God does. And with everything else, it is doing things wrong in some respects.Every Sunday afternoon after I attend Church, these are the types of thoughts running through my head. I welcome your thoughts. I need fixing, after all.

I tried to respond...but it vanished...it was lengthy, so never mind...just know you are love and that God is more forgiving that you might suppose. Edited September 26, 2015 by Pa Pa

[stemelbow]

Stemelbow, would you mind me asking a question on this thread?  If so I'll delete right away.  I'm wondering if anyone knows if this institute class is offered to non student adult members. 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/foundations-of-the-restoration-teacher-manual?lang=eng

 

I know they use to offer classes but it seems they are fading away.  Or could be totally wrong.  Maybe if members like you and I had a classroom to discuss these things we wouldn't just rely on discussion boards to discuss.  Because we all know this isn't offered through the local ward or stake.

Don't mind, but don't know the answer. Sorry.

[stemelbow]

Hey Stem,

After reading your replies to my above post, I am nearly certain that we are having significant struggles with communication.Perhaps these struggles are, in large part, due to my failure to communicate what I intended to communicate to you in the first place. If this is the case, I offer you, old friend, my sincere apology.

Anyway, I hope this finds you well and peaceful.

Name

heh, name. It's always the same with you--what we have here is a failure to communicate. We got some contrasting styles, you and I, that's for sure. Probably not a bad idea to end it before we really confuse each other. see ya. I appreciated your initial response, BTW. Just liked the idea of challenging you a bit too--being the devil that I am.

[BTH&T]

heh, name. It's always the same with you--what we have here is a failure to communicate. We got some contrasting styles, you and I, that's for sure. Probably not a bad idea to end it before we really confuse each other. see ya. I appreciated your initial response, BTW. Just liked the idea of challenging you a bit too--being the devil that I am.

It seems that in my short time on MD you and I haven't been best of "friends" sorry if I have caused any continued stress.

 

We all have the ebbs and flows in life some more severe than others. In reading your OP I feel very impressed to share the link to a talk.

This has helped me to feel better about my chances at succeeding at this thing called life, and the Gospel. Hope this helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVUPWd7s-4c