Why Do I Bother?

[The Nehor]

What sins do you think would disqualify a person from exaltation? I can think of murder, blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, and possibly adultery or fornication after being temple endowed.

 

Unrepented ones.

[Storm Rider]

I am not sure I actually agree with much of what people say about Exaltation.  Once people start going beyond being a joint-heir with Christ, I tend to think some of them are nice thoughts, some of it is logical, and then a whole lot of it has the wrong emphasis.

 

For me to be a LDS is to be willing to take upon me the name of Christ; to renew that covenant every week.  That is why I am a member and why I stay a member.   

[filovirus]

Sorry is this comes across as a little preachy, I don't mean to offend.

 

Here is what I have found (anecdotal only). Most members understand really well the laws of the gospel. Ask any member about the Law of Chastity and they will tell you all the do's and don'ts associated with it. Same with Word of Wisdom, fasting, Sabbath Day observance, etc. Ask those same members what they understand about grace, justification, and sanctification, and they will not have a clue where to even begin. And those are three core principles of the Doctrine of Christ. In fact, they are the basis of our returning to our Father in Heaven. 

 

So why go to church every week? It is not to hear the newly married bride testify that she would not have married if her "soul mate" was not a returned missionary. We go to repent and be justified through Christ by partaking of the Sacrament. That is it. We can obviously get more out of church attendance as we learn more about the gospel and strengthen our brethren, but partaking of the Sacrament is first and foremost.

 

When we learn the principle of justification, we loose that hopelessness that we will never live up to a standard we have in our mind. We will stop trying to avoid the sins that will keep us from celestial glory; but instead start living the Gospel as it was intended.

 

I recommend that those who have not read Believing Christ by Robinson to get it and read it. Use it to lay a base for a proper understanding of justification, as outlined in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11, and 3 Nephi 27. Once justification is understood, then work on understanding what "enduring to the end" means and how it relates to sanctification.

 

Once grace, justification, and sanctification are understood, like a puzzle being put together, the entirety of the Plan of the Eternal Father will make more and more sense. Historical facts about the beginning days of the restored church will mean less and less. How the BOM was translated will mean less and less. Whether Joseph Smith had 40 or 41 wives will mean less and less.

 

Joseph will then be viewed as the restorer of Gospel Truths. We will know we are accountable for our own sins, and not for any perceived sins by Joseph Smith. We will understand that the BOM is here to reveal to us the word of God, not whether Mormon meant the Red Sea or the Mediterranean Sea. In essence, we will center our lives in Christ, and not in the Law of Chastity, or Joseph Smith, or the BOM, or anything else.

 

Again, sorry if I offend. I am not the best with words.

[Garden Girl]

  I wish the church were more well rounded, for those that aren't sure about the church. 

 

Tacenda...

I tried to PM you yesterday, but it said you couldn't have new messages... is your message space filled?  I wanted to  recommend a book to you in regard to something you mentioned a few days ago... one I know you'll enjoy and find quite interesting...

 

Note: Sorry... had to leave a message here since I couldn't PM...

 

NOW TO STEMELBOW... I want to encourage you... will PM you off board so I can talk freely...  just a couple thoughts...

 

GG

[Crypto]

I'm not sure I get your point. I agree with the passage you quote.

The point was the quote, any words that I add are just extra xD

[Garden Girl]

 

Here is what I have found (anecdotal only). Most members understand really well the laws of the gospel. Ask any member about the Law of Chastity and they will tell you all the do's and don'ts associated with it. Same with Word of Wisdom, fasting, Sabbath Day observance, etc. Ask those same members what they understand about grace, justification, and sanctification, and they will not have a clue where to even begin. And those are three core principles of the Doctrine of Christ. In fact, they are the basis of our returning to our Father in Heaven. 

 

I do not agree, filovirus, with your broad-brush application of this statement that the members will not have a clue where to begin in regard to grace, justification, and sanctification... by far the majority of members in my ward know exactly where to begin... Granted, there are some who are not as knowledgeable, but this statement does not fit the majority of my ward brothers and sisters. 

 

---------------

 

 

I recommend that those who have not read Believing Christ by Robinson to get it and read it.

 

Filovirus... I agree, this is a wonderful book and very helpful...

 

GG

[theplains]

I'm a lost and fallen soul. I'll always be, I suppose. I don't know that I'll dig my way out. I'm troubled by doctrinal teaching and many things associated therewith. I'm sure I'm as faithless and foolish as any ever could be. That's probably my problem and someone might conclude, well you just have to pray harder to fix yourself, or whatever..

 

The church says everything God does he does so he can make you into a god like himself (1997 Gospel

Principles, chapter 1, page 9).  So there is a lot of stress related to falling short or not enduring to the

end. Many other Christians do not believe that this is the primary work of God for their lives.  They believe

families will be together if all the family members are faithful. Following dietary laws or getting married is

not a requirement to live in the kingdom of God.

 

It seems that what you are going through is this type of anxiety, unconfessed sin, or satanic attacks.

 

You cannot fix yourself or pick yourself up by your bootstraps.  Jesus has already done this for you.

 

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

[Bobbieaware]

The church says everything God does he does so he can make you into a god like himself (1997 Gospel

Principles, chapter 1, page 9). So there is a lot of stress related to falling short or not enduring to the

end. Many other Christians do not believe that this is the primary work of God for their lives. They believe

families will be together if all the family members are faithful. Following dietary laws or getting married is

not a requirement to live in the kingdom of God.

It seems that what you are going through is this type of anxiety, unconfessed sin, or satanic attacks.

You cannot fix yourself or pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Jesus has already done this for you.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

If all a faithful Christian has to do is "sit back and enjoy the ride," why did Christ severely rebuke and chasten the already believing Laodiceans saints, commanding them to be zealous and repent? And why did the Lord go on to most solemnly warn the Laodiceans believers that only those among them who overcome the world -- as he overcame the world -- would have the right to be seated upon his throne and crowned as kings? And speaking of stressful, it seems to me it would be incredibly stressful to have God himself warn a group of believers, who foolishly thought they already had it made, that they were, in reality, lukewarm, wretched and miserable practioner of the Christian faith, and that if the saints were not careful to sincerely mend their ways, he would spue them out of his mouth (reject them).

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3)

If the saints have it made from the start, why is it that the Lord is always chastising his people? Just for the heck of it?

In his second General epistle, the Apostle Peter warned the saints the world over that Paul's teachings were difficult to understand and that the foolish and spiritually unstable of his day were twisting Paul's words to say something he never intended to say -- the heresy that there is no need for the believers in Christ to continue steadfast in the faith and be sure to continue growing in the power and gifts of God. So I hope you will excuse we Latter-day Saints if we seriously heed the warnings of the Lord and Peter.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3)

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[strappinglad]

I often ponder Stemelbow's point about the Church being a tiny group in a vast sea of humanity. I recognize that Christ's church in 200 AD was not very large either. All of Christianity together today still represents under 25% of the earth's population. Do the rest still have to ' endure to the end ' and what does it mean for them ?

Many here easily accept 10 million years for evolution to move creatures from pre-ape to homo-sapiens and yet want humans to become godlike in a flash. This earth life is just a necessary rung on a very long ladder. Some of us will have to slip and fall and hang on for dear life often . Some , I suspect, will be happy to reach a certain level and plateau for a long time before again looking up and desiring a better view. No answers for you Stem other than to recommend you stick with the basics as jwhitlock mentioned .

[Rain]

A few weeks ago DH was big time stressed because he just couldn't do everything. We talked about this and he had the impression he just needed to "work harder". I didn't agree. He needed to. Work more effectively.

I was reminded of this when you talked about praying harder. I think lots of people think that and they get frustrated and lose faith in the process. I think instead we need to prayer more effectively.

So how do you do that? It's going to depend. Something that helped me was WORKING through Wendy Watson Nelson's book, "Change your questions. Change your life" - I think that is the title. It helped me to see that there were better ways for me to talk to the Lord.

Or you could take notes from the scriptures. They rarely say pray harder (Enos because of the length of time may be an example of that, but there are others things that could be learned from him - praying in the mountains may be something that makes prayers more effective for some.

So maybe search the scriptures for ways to pray that you are not praying. Ways that work better for you that you haven't thought of before.

[Calm]

My husband quotes Scrooge McDuck a lot to his students (generally in the topic about atarting businesses, but it applies to everything in life): "Work smarter, not harder."

Edited September 15, 2015 by Calm

[filovirus]

Here is what I have found (anecdotal only). Most members understand really well the laws of the gospel. Ask any member about the Law of Chastity and they will tell you all the do's and don'ts associated with it. Same with Word of Wisdom, fasting, Sabbath Day observance, etc. Ask those same members what they understand about grace, justification, and sanctification, and they will not have a clue where to even begin. And those are three core principles of the Doctrine of Christ. In fact, they are the basis of our returning to our Father in Heaven. 

 

I do not agree, filovirus, with your broad-brush application of this statement that the members will not have a clue where to begin in regard to grace, justification, and sanctification... by far the majority of members in my ward know exactly where to begin... Granted, there are some who are not as knowledgeable, but this statement does not fit the majority of my ward brothers and sisters. 

 

---------------

 

 

I recommend that those who have not read Believing Christ by Robinson to get it and read it.

 

Filovirus... I agree, this is a wonderful book and very helpful...

 

GG

Thanks for keeping me honest GG. I think I'm so used to visiting the less active members of my ward that I lose touch with the faithfulness of many. I probably overstated a bit.

[stemelbow]

What you are experiencing often turns out to be a very normal and to-be-expected part of the journey toward ultimate salvation. Some members of the human family seem to need to taste a lot of life's bitterness before they're truly able recognize and fully appreciate God"s light, and prize the good. Alma and the sons of Mosiah spent plenty of time wandering in strange roads and darkness before the time was right for them to receive the light of God with relief and great gladness. Just think of it as being an essential part of your heavenly education. The Lord himself said no less:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, AND THEY TASTE THE BITTER, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW TO PRIZE THE GOOD. (Moses 5)

Even some of the most noble and great spirit children of God have experienced what you're going through. So take heart, you might very well be one of them.

Thanks. I'm surely not far off of thinking this same way. I have a path I must follow. It's mine. And though I can't really get to the end without going through it, I also don't think I have the option of jumping off the path and starting my own. I don't see the difference between good and bitter. They are both there before me at any given time. I can enjoy my kids while also feeling pain for my neighbor. The pain and station of others it what really brings me down, though. It makes little sense to continue, like at Church, to spew out platitudes and repeat them over and over, in my mind. We're not even scratching the surface of our lives. That seems to be a problem to me.

[stemelbow]

Sorry is this comes across as a little preachy, I don't mean to offend.

 

Here is what I have found (anecdotal only). Most members understand really well the laws of the gospel. Ask any member about the Law of Chastity and they will tell you all the do's and don'ts associated with it. Same with Word of Wisdom, fasting, Sabbath Day observance, etc. Ask those same members what they understand about grace, justification, and sanctification, and they will not have a clue where to even begin. And those are three core principles of the Doctrine of Christ. In fact, they are the basis of our returning to our Father in Heaven. 

 

So why go to church every week? It is not to hear the newly married bride testify that she would not have married if her "soul mate" was not a returned missionary. We go to repent and be justified through Christ by partaking of the Sacrament. That is it. We can obviously get more out of church attendance as we learn more about the gospel and strengthen our brethren, but partaking of the Sacrament is first and foremost.

 

When we learn the principle of justification, we loose that hopelessness that we will never live up to a standard we have in our mind. We will stop trying to avoid the sins that will keep us from celestial glory; but instead start living the Gospel as it was intended.

 

I recommend that those who have not read Believing Christ by Robinson to get it and read it. Use it to lay a base for a proper understanding of justification, as outlined in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11, and 3 Nephi 27. Once justification is understood, then work on understanding what "enduring to the end" means and how it relates to sanctification.

 

Once grace, justification, and sanctification are understood, like a puzzle being put together, the entirety of the Plan of the Eternal Father will make more and more sense. Historical facts about the beginning days of the restored church will mean less and less. How the BOM was translated will mean less and less. Whether Joseph Smith had 40 or 41 wives will mean less and less.

 

Joseph will then be viewed as the restorer of Gospel Truths. We will know we are accountable for our own sins, and not for any perceived sins by Joseph Smith. We will understand that the BOM is here to reveal to us the word of God, not whether Mormon meant the Red Sea or the Mediterranean Sea. In essence, we will center our lives in Christ, and not in the Law of Chastity, or Joseph Smith, or the BOM, or anything else.

 

Again, sorry if I offend. I am not the best with words.

Its not that it's preachy that is the problem. It's that it's completely off topic, as to my concerns and issues. But that's ok, really. I get where you're coming from. I too have read Robinson, and find the line of thought here reasonable. It simply doesn't scratch the surface of the real problems as I see them though.

[stemelbow]

Tacenda...

I tried to PM you yesterday, but it said you couldn't have new messages... is your message space filled?  I wanted to  recommend a book to you in regard to something you mentioned a few days ago... one I know you'll enjoy and find quite interesting...

 

Note: Sorry... had to leave a message here since I couldn't PM...

 

NOW TO STEMELBOW... I want to encourage you... will PM you off board so I can talk freely...  just a couple thoughts...

 

GG

Thanks GG, looking forward to it.

[stemelbow]

The church says everything God does he does so he can make you into a god like himself (1997 Gospel

Principles, chapter 1, page 9).  So there is a lot of stress related to falling short or not enduring to the

end. Many other Christians do not believe that this is the primary work of God for their lives.  They believe

families will be together if all the family members are faithful. Following dietary laws or getting married is

not a requirement to live in the kingdom of God.

 

It seems that what you are going through is this type of anxiety, unconfessed sin, or satanic attacks.

 

You cannot fix yourself or pick yourself up by your bootstraps.  Jesus has already done this for you.

 

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

I dont' see a difference between the other Christians and LDS in terms of levels of anxiety. Either one posits you must be faithful and individuals on both sides seem worried about that.

[stemelbow]

I often ponder Stemelbow's point about the Church being a tiny group in a vast sea of humanity. I recognize that Christ's church in 200 AD was not very large either. All of Christianity together today still represents under 25% of the earth's population. Do the rest still have to ' endure to the end ' and what does it mean for them ?

Many here easily accept 10 million years for evolution to move creatures from pre-ape to homo-sapiens and yet want humans to become godlike in a flash. This earth life is just a necessary rung on a very long ladder. Some of us will have to slip and fall and hang on for dear life often . Some , I suspect, will be happy to reach a certain level and plateau for a long time before again looking up and desiring a better view. No answers for you Stem other than to recommend you stick with the basics as jwhitlock mentioned .

I like the concept of sticking to the basics. I find that encouraging alone, but I also just can't pretend that others don't have it hard. That some lives seem extraordinarily difficult and painful. It tears me up. I suppose it's a view of what's to come. Some will eternally suffer. Some will eternally find themselves in a lesser place. As I suggested I don't know if I can handle that. It feels like eternal misery awaits either way.

[stemelbow]

A few weeks ago DH was big time stressed because he just couldn't do everything. We talked about this and he had the impression he just needed to "work harder". I didn't agree. He needed to. Work more effectively.

I was reminded of this when you talked about praying harder. I think lots of people think that and they get frustrated and lose faith in the process. I think instead we need to prayer more effectively.

So how do you do that? It's going to depend. Something that helped me was WORKING through Wendy Watson Nelson's book, "Change your questions. Change your life" - I think that is the title. It helped me to see that there were better ways for me to talk to the Lord.

Praying is difficult for me these days. I admit. I pray and pray for others but the suffering continues. Most often I don't feel like I want anything from God. That sounds awful I'm sure, but what really do I want? I don't want to be healthier or richer. I don't want to be more righteous because that just breeds self-righteous. I don't want to be blessed with the Spirit because others supposedly are not. I want that for others. It'll come for me if I see it for others, I figure. If I pray to God that I get a promotion and get it, then I'll be pissed. I simply don't want it to be about me. And all I hear from Church is "you will be blessed". Who cares?

Or you could take notes from the scriptures. They rarely say pray harder (Enos because of the length of time may be an example of that, but there are others things that could be learned from him - praying in the mountains may be something that makes prayers more effective for some.

So maybe search the scriptures for ways to pray that you are not praying. Ways that work better for you that you haven't thought of before.

Sounds fair. I'll think on this some more. Appreciate your input.

[stemelbow]

Shoot I made this all about me. I'm a selfish jerk. I meant this to lead to discussion about various principles we hear at Church. I tend to hear a message of "we're better than others", which I'm sure many here view as my problem as no one actually says that. I tend to hear a pharisaical approach at Church or a people gathered at Rameumptum. I get why we remain small in the world and why our growth rates are declining. Who wants to be a part of that? I guess plenty do. It just seem misdirected to me.

[ERayR]

Shoot I made this all about me. I'm a selfish jerk. I meant this to lead to discussion about various principles we hear at Church. I tend to hear a message of "we're better than others", which I'm sure many here view as my problem as no one actually says that. I tend to hear a pharisaical approach at Church or a people gathered at Rameumptum. I get why we remain small in the world and why our growth rates are declining. Who wants to be a part of that? I guess plenty do. It just seem misdirected to me.

 

I agree that there is some of the "we are better" attitude but (personal observation only) it is in the minority.  Having said that the question (for me) is shouldn't we be?  What I find troublesome is that I just can't seem to make it.

Edited September 15, 2015 by ERayR

[stemelbow]

I agree that there is some of the "we are better" attitude but (personal observation only) it is in the minority.  Having said that the question (for me) is shouldn't we be?

I say no. We should realize we are more a product of chance and circumstance than anything special.

What I find troublesome is that I just can't seem to make it.

I'm less concerned about not being able to make than I am about others not making it while I make it. That'd suck.

[Rain]

I tried replying to that part of your post as well, but had technical difficulties last night.

I've read in the scriptures a number of times when the Lord tells people that they will win over their enemies or their enemies will be destroyed etc. I've heard people talk about this as if it is a great comfort to them and I understand why.

I struggle with that. When I read those things I think, "but those are God's children. Those are my brothers and sisters." On a more personal level I know people who fight against the church.

So how do I reconcile enemies being destroyed with "love your enemies. Bless them that curse you"? We are talking about eternal consequences for them here so how do I find a measure of peace that my sister/brother may not have exaltation?

In large part I just don't know.

I do know lately it's been said that we shouldn't give up on people, assuming they will be headed for a lower level. We don't know God's mind and knowledge so we don't know his full plan for someone else.

Some years ago I searched the scriptures for preparedness when I became provident living specialist. I was amazed to find out extensive God's plan in all the details everywhere. Still I find evidence of that years later.

I've also been blessed to feel just a small portion of his love for individuals. Not my love for them. His love. The depth of the small portion I felt was amazing.

These two combined shows me that I comprehend so little of the whole plan. I have faith that through his love and plan it will work out for each of his children. I do not know what that means now. Just somehow God loves his children and sees more for them than we do.

I get that probably won't mean much to you. Without the preparation readings and feeling of his love for just a couple of people it wouldn't have meant much to me either.

[strappinglad]

I remember reading about a pride of lions in Africa who ,upon hearing about another pride some distance away who were starving for want of game, killed a gazelle and hauled it 20 miles over to the starving pride. There was also an article about a family of beavers who made every effort to avoid cutting down any trees with the spotted owl nest. Ya, right !

   We humans can be very destructive and cruel in order to achieve our own desires, but there is something different about us that urges us toward empathy for others outside of our own family group and even our own species. What is it ? Why is it? Why does God command us to love one another and to lose our lives in the service of others? What is my motive for improving my finances? To get a better car? To eat at a fancier restaurant? To better my children's education? To feed the homeless? To help support research into a cure for cancer?

 I think it was Paul who spoke of Faith , Hope and Charity and said that without Charity we are nothing, in other words we are just a natural man. So , I guess we better strive for Charity in our lives. Fortunately , the world is full of ways to express that charity  ( dang it ) .

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks. I'm surely not far off of thinking this same way. I have a path I must follow. It's mine. And though I can't really get to the end without going through it, I also don't think I have the option of jumping off the path and starting my own. I don't see the difference between good and bitter. They are both there before me at any given time. I can enjoy my kids while also feeling pain for my neighbor. The pain and station of others it what really brings me down, though. It makes little sense to continue, like at Church, to spew out platitudes and repeat them over and over, in my mind. We're not even scratching the surface of our lives. That seems to be a problem to me.

That's where the three most essential spiritual gifts come in -- faith, hope and the pure love of Christ. Simply put, I have made a conscious decision to choose to believe a perfectly loving and wise Almighty God rules over the universe; and that by divine design we must pass through sorrow -- as did God's Son who suffered more than all -- so that we can truly learn to love, value and fully appreciate eternal life, light and truth, and thereby find true happiness.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[jkwilliams]

Back to the OP: the reason you bother is that you care. Half the battle of this life is learning to empathize and love others as yourself. Seems to me your concerns are all rooted in your love for other people. Take that as a great starting point, and do something that matters with your life to help others. It may not be much, but it will matter.