Why Do I Bother?

[jkwilliams]

heh, name. It's always the same with you--what we have here is a failure to communicate. We got some contrasting styles, you and I, that's for sure. Probably not a bad idea to end it before we really confuse each other. see ya. I appreciated your initial response, BTW. Just liked the idea of challenging you a bit too--being the devil that I am.

I am pretty discouraged tonight, and I remembered this thread. I have tried really hard to contribute positively here, but it isn't working. I guess I figured you would understand why I feel so bad about my time here.

[Okrahomer]

I am pretty discouraged tonight, and I remembered this thread. I have tried really hard to contribute positively here, but it isn't working. I guess I figured you would understand why I feel so bad about my time here.

We've not interacted much, but I have to say that I do appreciate your posts and feel sorry that you are feeling discouraged. I find your perspective here valuable, perhaps especially because it differs--in a well-written and sincere way--from my own.

For what it's worth...

[stemelbow]

I forgot about this thread and figured it had died. Didn't realize people had contributed a couple days ago until just now.

Thanks everyone.

I'll take a look at the link you offered, BTH&H. I haven't had any issues with your participation even if we disagree. I like disagreement though.

Yes, JKwilliams. I certainly feel like your contributions speak my language. I somehow missed a lot of the flare up which may or may not have happened. I get discouraged sometimes when I hear all the disagreeing voices. I try not to worry too much because, well, people disagree. But, it's hard when it gets personal and anger seems to come from nowhere.

[Storm Rider]

I have my own soapboxes and will stand on them and complain.  However, I am discouraged with the Forum because it has become so consistently negative toward the Church, its teachings, the gospel, and its leaders.  It is this constant whine that becomes so grating.  At times it as if some have fallen into a rut and all their contributions sound the same.  I cannot point fingers; it does not interest me.

 

I fully comprehend the challenges of faith.  I understand soapboxes, complaints, and issues.  Comments that discuss these issues are appreciated.  What I don't understand is being no negative.  Life is just too short to be in that mode for extended periods.  

 

There are few unique individuals in the world.  Each of us is human and deals with being human.  Most of us need to get over the idea that our challenges are unique and have never been encountered by others.  

 

I have met very few truly brilliant people; I have met many people who would like to demonstrate that they are infinitely smarter than me and most other LDS or other people of faith.  This carries over to those who think they have a unique perspective of Mormonism and its weaknesses or that they may know something that has not been discussed ad nauseum already.  

 

Faith is not easy.  It demands effort, hope, and desire.  It does not fall on your head and remain there without some response from each individual.  We have to engage with God; we have to remain standing holding the door open to God.  If the door is shut it is because we have shut the door.  

 

You should bother only if you are open to God.  If not, then what role are you trying to play?

[Tacenda]

Listening to an old MS's podcast with Grant Palmer.  I know many on here dislike him and think he's anti.  But as I listen to him it doesn't appear to be the case.  He was disfellowshipped or ex'ed because of his book "Insider's View of Mormonism".  Yet I don't think many apologists have come up with where his info was wrong.  In fact many of what he put forth is now part of the church essays.  Just at this moment he mentions that having this faith crisis was worse than chemo, radiation, surgeries, losing his wife etc.  I know some will scoff at this but it's a true scenario, I'm going through it and it's never going to get better unless I jump down on one side or the other.   

[Storm Rider]

Listening to an old MS's podcast with Grant Palmer.  I know many on here dislike him and think he's anti.  But as I listen to him it doesn't appear to be the case.  He was disfellowshipped or ex'ed because of his book "Insider's View of Mormonism".  Yet I don't think many apologists have come up with where his info was wrong.  In fact many of what he put forth is now part of the church essays.  Just at this moment he mentions that having this faith crisis was worse than chemo, radiation, surgeries, losing his wife etc.  I know some will scoff at this but it's a true scenario, I'm going through it and it's never going to get better unless I jump down on one side or the other.   

 

I think this is an interesting question - is either choice equal?  No, I don't think it is.  I honestly believe that a life of faith leads to deeper joy and satisfaction in life.  I honestly believe that we listen to the evil voices and turn our life into a burning hell.  There is just so much "stuff" that people carry around with them and I don't understand why.  Put it down; turn it over to God and let him handle it.  There is freedom and letting him be our Master and Lord.  I have found peace in not knowing and not having an answer.  

 

My path, my journey is about finding the truths I am ready to live and embrace.  I don't have a lot of interest in the trivia of Mormonism because those "facts" people like to argue about have no bearing or impact on my relationship with God.  It is not that I close my eyes to them or even that I think that ignorance is bliss - I don't at all.  I have accepted that some conflicts have no answer at present.  

 

When I was newly married my wife conceived and bore a son.  I had a dream when I was fourteen that I would one day have a son; that my first child would be a son and I knew what his name was.  I was overjoyed.  Three months later he died of SIDS.  All those dreams came crashing down.  One of the things I learned from that experience is that sometimes we have to accept that there is no answer at present.  

 

I see so many people on this site that wrap themselves in a demand of answering every why.  They have abdicated any choice for faith in favor of the false pride of doubt.  Doubt is not required; doubt is not healthy.  Living life doubting that your spouse's fidelity does not build a good marriage.  Living a life doubting God does not build a good relationship with God.  The spirit that sells that bit of illogical chicanery is the evil one.  How many times do you hear that doubt is good?  Who sells that tripe and who is buying?  Do each of them live doubting their spouse?  The love of their parents and children?  They each each ask why they are unhappy!?!  Does Satan ever lead to happiness?  NO.  Not ever.

 

Faith, the choice to hope is an active engagement to live pursuing God's truth.  Faith is never sticking your head in the sand; faith is the willingness to let God captain your ship; to step into the darkness because you have felt the Light.  

 

Put that baggage down and rest; let Him be your Lord and Savior.  

[Tacenda]

Thanks Storm Rider, I'll think about your post and the wisdom it contained. I know you wonder about the negativity on this board and tire of people's doubt, but Mormon Dialogue is a place for some to get valuable feedback like this, so you're doing a great service.

I know it seems we're thick headed. I guess just like Palmer, I want truth. But understand there are the unknowns and the church has finally flung the door open on much in church history, but just haven't condemned some of those that may have harmed. I guess in my mind I want it to do that, but see it's not going to happen and I shouldn't deny a person the happiness they get from living in the church, benefitting from all that it offers just because of some church history I don't like.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

I have my own soapboxes and will stand on them and complain.  However, I am discouraged with the Forum because it has become so consistently negative toward the Church, its teachings, the gospel, and its leaders.  It is this constant whine that becomes so grating.  At times it as if some have fallen into a rut and all their contributions sound the same.  I cannot point fingers; it does not interest me.

 

I fully comprehend the challenges of faith.  I understand soapboxes, complaints, and issues.  Comments that discuss these issues are appreciated.  What I don't understand is being no negative.  Life is just too short to be in that mode for extended periods.  

 

There are few unique individuals in the world.  Each of us is human and deals with being human.  Most of us need to get over the idea that our challenges are unique and have never been encountered by others.  

 

I have met very few truly brilliant people; I have met many people who would like to demonstrate that they are infinitely smarter than me and most other LDS or other people of faith.  This carries over to those who think they have a unique perspective of Mormonism and its weaknesses or that they may know something that has not been discussed ad nauseum already.  

 

Faith is not easy.  It demands effort, hope, and desire.  It does not fall on your head and remain there without some response from each individual.  We have to engage with God; we have to remain standing holding the door open to God.  If the door is shut it is because we have shut the door.  

 

You should bother only if you are open to God.  If not, then what role are you trying to play?

While I have enjoyed my participation on this board over the years, I, too, have gotten rather discouraged over the negativity and lack of faith among members. I expect this from antis, and from skeptical investigators, but so many of the folks here who are members and long-time members but who seem to see only through glasses darkly, which I recognize we all see through, but these folks aren't looking through sunglasses, they are looking through arc-welders' glasses! Only the brightest sparks will ever get through, and since they don't see them, they conclude there aren't any. Meanwhile the sparks are falling on their hair, setting it on fire. And they wonder what's that funny smell? But, as long as they keep trying...

I'm 64. I got baptized in 1966, and except for 2.5 years when I was in Toronto, Canada, where I didn't attend church (still kept the WoW and read scriptures sometimes), I've been as active as I could be. My spiritual life hasn't been going like a house-afire, heaven knows, but I've recognized the clear voice of the spirit many times, and I have had God's gentle guidance when I needed it. And I probably would have had more of it if I had been paying more attention.

I disagree that there are few unique persons in the world. In my experience, there are nothing but unique individuals. What lens you looking through, anyway?

But I agree about that door being shut. The times I have shut my own door is when I have gotten in the most trouble.

[Storm Rider]

The kind of uniqueness that I was referring to is individuals that are unlike anyone else - not in value, but as in experience. I just don't know anyone that has experiences that are unique.  We lost our son; I know many people who have lost children. We have had health issues, but I know many people who have had health issues. My experiences are not unique and I don't think there are many that can honestly say their life cannot find resonance with the lives of other people.  Does that make sense?

[Storm Rider]

Thanks Storm Rider, I'll think about your post and the wisdom it contained. I know you wonder about the negativity on this board and tire of people's doubt, but Mormon Dialogue is a place for some to get valuable feedback like this, so you're doing a great service.

I know it seems we're thick headed. I guess just like Palmer, I want truth. But understand there are the unknowns and the church has finally flung the door open on much in church history, but just haven't condemned some of those that may have harmed. I guess in my mind I want it to do that, but see it's not going to happen and I shouldn't deny a person the happiness they get from living in the church, benefiting from all that it offers just because of some church history I don't like.

 

Tacenda, having doubt is not bad.  As humans we all have doubts.  However, entertaining doubt is simply not healthy.  It appears that some are so proud of doubt that they invite it in and ask it to stay as a favored guest.  This just does not make sense.  If man is that he might have joy then what role does doubt play in our lives?  I don't think doubt is necessary for a fulfilling life.  

 

To me it is a matter of perspective.  How do you want to live your life?  I know some truly positive people and some very happy people.  I don't think those qualities are maintained without effort and without doing many things to continue in that manner.  Life is difficult and trials abound.  However, when Jesus said his yoke is easy, I believe that he means it.  It is easy only if we submit to him and to his will for us.  Bad things will continue to happen, but I know that he lives and he is my joy.  All things can be overcome, lived through, and I can know joy because of him who leads me and guides me.  

[Maedros]

You need to read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle: it will revitalize your faith. 

[Stargazer]

The kind of uniqueness that I was referring to is individuals that are unlike anyone else - not in value, but as in experience. I just don't know anyone that has experiences that are unique.  We lost our son; I know many people who have lost children. We have had health issues, but I know many people who have had health issues. My experiences are not unique and I don't think there are many that can honestly say their life cannot find resonance with the lives of other people.  Does that make sense?

 

Yep!  Perfect sense, sorry I misunderstood!

[jkwilliams]

We've not interacted much, but I have to say that I do appreciate your posts and feel sorry that you are feeling discouraged. I find your perspective here valuable, perhaps especially because it differs--in a well-written and sincere way--from my own.

For what it's worth...

Thanks. I've just had a rough patch lately. Things are OK, and I appreciate the support.

[ERayR]

Thanks. I've just had a rough patch lately. Things are OK, and I appreciate the support.

 

jk,

I don't know if it will help but we all hit a rough patch now and then.  With me I recognize it is something I am doing that upsets the balance of harmony.  Most of the time it is when I neglect to cultivate my connection with God and Christ.  Once I get that back in line everything feels better.  I don't know if this is any help but it works for me.

[jkwilliams]

jk,

I don't know if it will help but we all hit a rough patch now and then. With me I recognize it is something I am doing that upsets the balance of harmony. Most of the time it is when I neglect to cultivate my connection with God and Christ. Once I get that back in line everything feels better. I don't know if this is any help but it works for me.

For me, it was just finally acknowledging I can't patch things up with someone and letting it go. I struggle with this weird need to be liked. I have made a lot of progress dealing with the underlying insecurity, but not there yet.

Some days I feel closer to God than others, and when I am frustrated and don't feel close to him, things happen like the last couple of weeks.

[ERayR]

For me, it was just finally acknowledging I can't patch things up with someone and letting it go. I struggle with this weird need to be liked. I have made a lot of progress dealing with the underlying insecurity, but not there yet.

Some days I feel closer to God than others, and when I am frustrated and don't feel close to him, things happen like the last couple of weeks.

 

What is so weird about wanting to be liked?  I have to console myself sometimes by realizing not everybody is smart enough to see my good points.  

[Stargazer]

What is so weird about wanting to be liked?  I have to console myself sometimes by realizing not everybody is smart enough to see my good points.  

 

You and I must be blood brothers or something.  I could have written this myself.

[ERayR]

You and I must be blood brothers or something.  I could have written this myself.

 

Great minds think alike.

[saemo]

Listening to an old MS's podcast with Grant Palmer.  I know many on here dislike him and think he's anti.  But as I listen to him it doesn't appear to be the case.  He was disfellowshipped or ex'ed because of his book "Insider's View of Mormonism".  Yet I don't think many apologists have come up with where his info was wrong.  In fact many of what he put forth is now part of the church essays.  Just at this moment he mentions that having this faith crisis was worse than chemo, radiation, surgeries, losing his wife etc.  I know some will scoff at this but it's a true scenario, I'm going through it and it's never going to get better unless I jump down on one side or the other.

FWIW, the churn is excruciating. I did all that, twice, once when I left, no internet. Just me and my own thoughts and experiences. I came to the conclusion then, there was no answers, and no God. 15 years later, I discovered people were having discussions about the things I had thought about "back then". It was kind of cool to discover I wasn't alone, but it brought up the churn again, and I stopped reading "anti-Mormon" sites. Over and over the same thing, it was like a gauntlet of razor blades. There isn't anything like it on this forum. But, it was useful to my own internal thinking, the time where I decided I wasn't a very good atheist. Now 15 years past that point, and I don't churn over doctrinal or historical stuff. What gets me, is the disconnect to my all Mormon family. Would be nice to have that connection, that I recall from long, long ago. It. Is what it is. God is a wedge, so to speak.

All that to say, the churn has a use, but I notice some people hang onto it ( not saying you are), and I held onto it for far too long. A friend had an analogy, that there was at one time the need for a team of horses to pull a fire engine. Now, no one has teams of horses in the rush to get to a fire. Have to let go of what was once useful, but now has no purpose.

Not encouraging you to leave Mormonism, by a long shot. Letting go of what is no longer needed, does not mean leaving Mormonism. It means what it means to you.