ERayR Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I say no. We should realize we are more a product of chance and circumstance than anything special.I'm less concerned about not being able to make than I am about others not making it while I make it. That'd suck. If we are only of chance and circumstance then we are indeed a sad person. Through knowledge and education and choices we should become much more than our "chance and circumstance". As we become it is incumbent on us to help others to also become more than their chance and circumstance.
ttribe Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Back to the OP: the reason you bother is that you care. Half the battle of this life is learning to empathize and love others as yourself. Seems to me your concerns are all rooted in your love for other people. Take that as a great starting point, and do something that matters with your life to help others. It may not be much, but it will matter. Indeed, my observation over the years is that stem appears to have an overabundance of the empathy gene. Given the number of people (on this very board) who seem to lack said gene, I wonder if a transplant might help even out the situation.
Avatar4321 Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Ill quote brother Brigham for this."Tell those thoughts to go to hell, because that's where they came from"
stemelbow Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Excellent contributions Strappinglad and Rain. I think your posts are a great insight into who you both are. Thanks. It is very encouraging to me. Everyone else have offered good ideas too, which I appreciate. As per Bobbie, I agree with what you've said. I don't know why or how but it does seem like as we travel through life going through our many phases we learn and grow. I admit sometimes I'm impatient with that. I'm impatient that I feel slow growth and sometimes none at all. In some ways I've taken steps backward. I can probably gain from those backward steps. With your point I agree.
stemelbow Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Back to the OP: the reason you bother is that you care. Half the battle of this life is learning to empathize and love others as yourself. Seems to me your concerns are all rooted in your love for other people. Take that as a great starting point, and do something that matters with your life to help others. It may not be much, but it will matter. I certainly don't know where else to go. I certainly feel better when I do the littlest things for others. I know it's all I can do. But it certainly doesn't wash away my concerns. I do appreciate the advice, and find it to have merit. Thanks.
stemelbow Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 If we are only of chance and circumstance then we are indeed a sad person. It seems by chance we find ourselves on earth today in the condition we have. We could have been those who lived in conditions of starvation or cannibalism. What do we make of the lives of those who lived in the darkest of times, the harshest of conditions? We make very little. We assume that somehow their temple work will get done, no? even though in most cases we won't have a chance to figure out anything about them, like names, or relationships. We just assume as the Millennial reign comes along God will tell us their names. We'll do temple work 24-7 and fulfill everyone's need to have ordinances done. We can only hope. For all we know everyone is numbered to God. Why not just start the work today for all the numbers of people? We don't need name or place. Oh oops. I got off topic. Just saying...some people who have lived and do live have it way harder than you or I can imagine. It seems chance is as likely as any to say why we find ourselves in the conditions we are in. Through knowledge and education and choices we should become much more than our "chance and circumstance". As we become it is incumbent on us to help others to also become more than their chance and circumstance. I'm fine with that. It'd be nice to be able to feel like we're helping rather than just claiming we're helping.
jkwilliams Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I certainly don't know where else to go. I certainly feel better when I do the littlest things for others. I know it's all I can do. But it certainly doesn't wash away my concerns. I do appreciate the advice, and find it to have merit. Thanks. Nothing is ever going to wash away your concerns, IMO. We're never going to end human suffering, so why not just do the best we can and be OK with that?
stemelbow Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Nothing is ever going to wash away your concerns, IMO. We're never going to end human suffering, so why not just do the best we can and be OK with that? I can only be ok with that if by chance I'm able to see what God sees. I know not that anyone will be treated justly. I can't imagine being awarded exaltation. It is way too much. and really, the way we teach it, it is very little for us to do in order to get there. If so, why assume anyone has to do anything? Does it really mean anything?
jkwilliams Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 I can only be ok with that if by chance I'm able to see what God sees. I know not that anyone will be treated justly. I can't imagine being awarded exaltation. It is way too much. and really, the way we teach it, it is very little for us to do in order to get there. If so, why assume anyone has to do anything? Does it really mean anything? Obviously, I don't believe we will be awarded exaltation. Heck, most days I struggle to maintain belief in a just God, for many reasons, including some of the ones you've shared here. But one thing I decided a long time ago: even if this mortal life is all we have, it still has meaning when we create our own meaning. Would the lives of Lincoln or Martin Luther King--or even Joseph Smith, for that matter--mean anything less if this life were all there is? I don't think so. In my view, truly loving our neighbors means letting go of what's in it for us and simply doing good and being good because we want to. Serving others is much more rewarding when we want to do it, not when we feel obligated or assigned, or we expect to be rewarded. I am not even close to getting to that point, but I'm working on it, and it sounds like you are too. We make our own meaning.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 My mind is interesting. Maybe it's cuz I have Tourettes syndrome adhd depression and anxiety but when I'm not sinning I have high anxiety and fears about my past sins affecting my salvation 24/7. Yet when I actually sin is when I'm at my most relaxed and that's when my anxiety goes down and I actually have fun in life. My only conclusion is that Satan is causing my anxiety when I don't sin and getting in my head and he let's go on that brake pedal when I do sin to try and force my mind to feel most comfortable in sin. It's strange. But maybe it's also my mental disabilities. I just don't know.
Jeanne Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Even in my most Mormon days..my best friend and cousin and i often talked about the exaltation and the Celeistial Kingdom and thought...how absolutely boring!! Boring people.. See...I don't want a plan..I want to keep living in real fun and impulsive freedom. I can't see the happiness there. And..if I am being honest..I don't know that I would want so much responsibility. I like to think and thank God that I am so easy to please.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Does anyone on these boards want exaltation or is that just desire for power, glory and grandeur?
The Nehor Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Does anyone on these boards want exaltation or is that just desire for power, glory and grandeur? Can't it be both? Even in my most Mormon days..my best friend and cousin and i often talked about the exaltation and the Celeistial Kingdom and thought...how absolutely boring!! Boring people.. See...I don't want a plan..I want to keep living in real fun and impulsive freedom. I can't see the happiness there. And..if I am being honest..I don't know that I would want so much responsibility. I like to think and thank God that I am so easy to please. That's the thing about exaltation. The boring people who make it will be healed of their dullard status somewhere along the way. In any case exaltation will not be the same for all people. God prepares a place for us. Your exaltation would not be mine though through the magic of omniscience and charity I will rejoice in your enjoyment of your exalted state as much as you do. As to being impulsive not sure how that would apply to a God but every good attribute will find expression there. When we arrive in heaven it will be as if our niche there was designed specifically for us because it was. We will be made whole.
Rain Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Does anyone on these boards want exaltation or is that just desire for power, glory and grandeur?I never think of those three things. More I think what a fascinating opportunity! I love when I have gained enough knowledge to do something. I love learning how the body works. I love creating rooms that look put together. When I go into these rooms I sometimes just sigh. How much cooler will be the Celestial kingdom when I can play with this knowledge and creativity! 1
Rain Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Edited because I wasn't comfortable with how I was answering, but can't figure how else to do it. Edited September 16, 2015 by Rain 1
Tacenda Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I've only wanted to go to the CK because that was the only kingdom God would preside, atleast that's what I was told.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Tacenda I'm with you on that. I want the CK too because that's where God and Jesus sit on their throne and only place where families are together and where my cats probably will be. Would hate to be lonely in one of the lower kingdoms. It seems so cruel that families only exist in the top of the Celestial Kingdom and everyone else has to be alone for eternity. That creates worry and fear because loneliness sucks big time. Edited September 16, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Also I have seen how some people beat themselves up over the responsibilities of being Mormon. There was a guy in my university ward who attempted suicide because he was temple endowed and committed fornication with a number of women and said how the scriptures say sexual sin is 2nd only to murder and that really put guilt and fear in his mind. He was disfellowshipped for the fornication but thankfully is alive. Does the church put too much fear into people's sins especially the law of chastity for Mormons when so many people in the world who aren't mormon break it. Are they committing a sin 2nd only to murder every day or is that only for Mormons?
The Nehor Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Tacenda I'm with you on that. I want the CK too because that's where God and Jesus sit on their throne and only place where families are together and where my cats probably will be. Would hate to be lonely in one of the lower kingdoms. It seems so cruel that families only exist in the top of the Celestial Kingdom and everyone else has to be alone for eternity. That creates worry and fear because loneliness sucks big time. If it is any consolation everywhere except Outer Darkness is better then here. Also I have seen how some people beat themselves up over the responsibilities of being Mormon. There was a guy in my university ward who attempted suicide because he was temple endowed and committed fornication with a number of women and said how the scriptures say sexual sin is 2nd only to murder and that really put guilt and fear in his mind. He was disfellowshipped for the fornication but thankfully is alive. Does the church put too much fear into people's sins especially the law of chastity for Mormons when so many people in the world who aren't mormon break it. Are they committing a sin 2nd only to murder every day or is that only for Mormons? Not enough fear to stop him from doing it. I am not convinced this is the Church's fault. Oh how the devil will play with sinners. There is a kind of twisted vanity and melodramatic arrogance about the whole despair thing. They take this despair at never being forgiven and feed on it as if they are some great fallen saint sunk beyond redemption as opposed to a human who screwed up like humans have since the dawn of time and will until the Final Judgement. I am not trying to mitigate the seriousness of sin but greater sinners then them have been forgiven. I saw this a lot on my mission. A missionary does a stupid 19 year old thing and believes the world is ending and they are cut off forever. I know one guy who had just testified with burning conviction that God would forgive a woman shrouded in multitudes of sins of extreme severity and the next day fall to pieces because he had a hard day, succumbed to human weakness, and broke a few relatively minor rules. The woman who had committed every sin under the sun is fine but somehow he is the tragic fallen demigod who can never be forgiven for having a late start one morning and getting short with his companion. God wants to forgive. He does not have to be begged or cajoled into it. You don't have to force yourself to suffer in order to try to duplicate the atonement. He's eons into you and loves you. God more then once has looked at me with a feeling of reproach when I sink into that state and pointed out how ridiculous I was being; as if he would give up on me over something so trivial. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 It's comforting to realize how far reaching the atonement is.
stemelbow Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 If it is any consolation everywhere except Outer Darkness is better then here. Not enough fear to stop him from doing it. I am not convinced this is the Church's fault. Oh how the devil will play with sinners. There is a kind of twisted vanity and melodramatic arrogance about the whole despair thing. They take this despair at never being forgiven and feed on it as if they are some great fallen saint sunk beyond redemption as opposed to a human who screwed up like humans have since the dawn of time and will until the Final Judgement. I am not trying to mitigate the seriousness of sin but greater sinners then them have been forgiven. I saw this a lot on my mission. A missionary does a stupid 19 year old thing and believes the world is ending and they are cut off forever. I know one guy who had just testified with burning conviction that God would forgive a woman shrouded in multitudes of sins of extreme severity and the next day fall to pieces because he had a hard day, succumbed to human weakness, and broke a few relatively minor rules. The woman who had committed every sin under the sun is fine but somehow he is the tragic fallen demigod who can never be forgiven for having a late start one morning and getting short with his companion. God wants to forgive. He does not have to be begged or cajoled into it. You don't have to force yourself to suffer in order to try to duplicate the atonement. He's eons into you and loves you. God more then once has looked at me with a feeling of reproach when I sink into that state and pointed out how ridiculous I was being; as if he would give up on me over something so trivial. Such a perspective makes the whole tiered heavens seem ridiculous. why would anyone not repent at some point? It seems easy enough and God is just wanting to forgive everyone. I know we tell ourselves there are people who just want less, or people who will not repent, but we're also told many will go to God thinking they on board with God and will be told they are nothing but wicked. Most times we're nothing if not some pile of contradiction.
The Nehor Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Such a perspective makes the whole tiered heavens seem ridiculous. why would anyone not repent at some point? Almost everyone will. It seems easy enough and God is just wanting to forgive everyone. I know we tell ourselves there are people who just want less, or people who will not repent, but we're also told many will go to God thinking they on board with God and will be told they are nothing but wicked. Most times we're nothing if not some pile of contradiction. God wants to forgive but he cannot forgive the unrepentant. Not a lot of things God can't do but there are a few.
stemelbow Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 Almost everyone will. God wants to forgive but he cannot forgive the unrepentant. Not a lot of things God can't do but there are a few. So nearly everyone will repent but as it turns out most won't be fully forgiven because most won't be exalted? So everyone is forgiven, except the few unrepentant, but they are eternally less because they simply didn't believe hard enough at some point?
Calm Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 My opinion....There is being purified and then there is aligning your will to God's. Everyone will need to become sinless/pure, but then they will need to choose how much they want to be like God, align their will with his.Some will not want to do that because they will see it as losing theirselves, others won't want to because they don't want the responsibility that comes with it. There will probably be many other reasons as well.
Rain Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Also I have seen how some people beat themselves up over the responsibilities of being Mormon. There was a guy in my university ward who attempted suicide because he was temple endowed and committed fornication with a number of women and said how the scriptures say sexual sin is 2nd only to murder and that really put guilt and fear in his mind. He was disfellowshipped for the fornication but thankfully is alive. Does the church put too much fear into people's sins especially the law of chastity for Mormons when so many people in the world who aren't mormon break it. Are they committing a sin 2nd only to murder every day or is that only for Mormons?This is where the book Believing Christ comes in. Some people believe Christ is there for everyone and all sins except for themselves. If asked if someone else can be forgiven they strongly believe they can, but when asked if they themselves can be forgiven they give all sorts of reasons why it would be hard to forgive someone like them. In a nutshell the author shows they believe in Christ, but don't believe Christ when he says he is there for them. 1
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