RevTestament Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 CFR on everything in this posting. There is no lost scroll. That is hearsay. JS translation of the of the facsimiles does not come anywhere close what the real translation is. No Egyptian scholar takes the JS translation seriously. JS took other men's wives and lied to Emma and others about it. This topic has been discussed over and over. Read the Essays if you don't believe me.Prove Joseph "took other men's wives." Where are the children from these alleged "marriages?" DNA studies have been done using his known descendants, and the children of these other women weren't Joseph's. Read the DNA reports if you don't believe me So CFR on your evidence. I concede he sealed himself to them, but that wasn't a temporal marriage.Emma herself wrote about the scroll the Book of Abraham came from. That is not hearsay, but firsthand eyewitness account. Even the Book of Abraham references the first fascimile as an attachment, and says to refer to it, so the Book itself did not come from it. You can see from Joseph Smith's descriptions of the fascimiles that the Book of Abraham itself leaves out a great deal of what Joseph said was in the fascimiles, and therefore is NOT a translation of the fascimile scrolls as you are trying to allege.I've discussed how Joseph's interpretation of fascimile 1 does indeed correspond with some of what the experts say, and again they are interpreting them based upon approx 1000 BC understanding rather than 2000 BC understanding or perhaps even before that. Did Ham have a corrupted language or not?
RevTestament Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 The last 7000 years ie "the millennium"Joseph was the covenant bringer of the 6th seal see D & C 77I will add that John the Baptist and Jesus brought the covenant of the 5th seal.David and Solomon brought the Davidic covenant of the 4rth seal. Because of David's sin, Solomon built the templeAbraham brought the covenant of the 3rd seal.Noah the 2nd sealAdam the 1st seal - covenant of works or the Sabbath.
Tacenda Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) I dunno Tacenda, maybe Satan got into my mind and corrupted my brain. That's talked about in my patriarchal blessing as a warning so looks like it's coming true. And google linked me to a mormonthink article when I googled "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon". I didn't know it was supposed to be an only anti Mormon site since the article gave multiple point of views.Don't blame it on Satan, take responsibility. Your patriarchal blessing comes from a man, he may have interpreted it wrong. Do you want to take a chance and lose all belief in God? Once you disbelieve one thing, it's a dominoe affect. If you're happy in the church, you may be pretty bummed out of the church. Sure it might be made up, same with even most of the Bible, the Bible may be there to keep people from killing each other. Funny thing is, Atheists are still loving and kind, w/o belief. It's basically a choice...many need a religious structure to be their best, others don't do well with that structure or with being extroverted or social. Introverts probably struggle with the social end of church going. What makes you, you? Your best you? The LDS church is a great path to the divine, as well as other faiths. So forget the anti...you're never going to prove the church is false, there's always going to be that 1% chance it's true. Edited September 25, 2015 by Tacenda
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Even if I ever stopped believing in the Mormon church or Joseph Smith I'd never give up my belief in God or Jesus. Those 2 are the basis of my belief. Always have been and always will be. I'm just questioning some church history as I find out about it that I never know that is troublesome.
Calm Posted September 25, 2015 Author Posted September 25, 2015 Hi Calm,Your argument isn't with me - take it up with Thinking. Which is why I quoted Thinking.
readstoomuch Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Hey I'm just asking how Mohammed could write the Quaran too. That must be a God inspired book too right? Since he was illiterate and uneducated. And calm I never see Fairmormon take the other side of the argument. That's a biased site for sure. We're only supposed to take church approved information to read? Isn't that the sign of indoctrination?Try reading the Quaran. I don`t put it in any thing even close to the Book of Mormon. Try a few pages and see what you think. IMO the BoM is a serious roadmap to following Christ.
readstoomuch Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 By the way, it may be time to put the CES Letter away. It will be there for you whenever you want to take it up again. There is the problem of reading for answers and coming up with more questions. CES is just a great list of arguments. It isn`t serious history. Please just read the scriptures or study for your Sunday School lesson or Priesthood lesson. If you can`t do that then read somebody who is faithful and their research is solid. Rough Stone Rolling comes up. How about The Mormon Experience by Leonard Arrington. I sat and talked to Leonard for a few hours and bounced all of the negative questions I had. He wasn`t phased. If he(and I) can get through the issues, then so can you. You NEED to fill the Spirit though. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 I've only felt the spirit strongly once in my life.
readstoomuch Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Then work on that. Read about the Tree of Life whose fruit is the most delicious and desirable. It can be yours and the Book of Mormon is better at helping you feel the Spirit than any other book.
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 It was in September 2013 where I received a priesthood blessing from my Bishop and home teacher where he said I was forgiven of all my sins and he started crying and the spirit hit me like a drug overwhelming my whole body and I felt like I was being pulled out of my body and being hugged even though there were only hands on my head. That is the one time I recognized feeling the spirit.
Thinking Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Of course we make decisions based on consequences. Isn't a choice right or wrong because of the consequences to that choice? Not necessarily. Some choices hide other choices in order to create desirable consequences. Also, we would be naive to believe that the immediate consequences following a choice are the only consequences that will ever result from that choice. It is wrong to discriminate in regards to race because it has the consequence of hurting someone. It is right to be charitable because it has the consequence of helping someone. True. Perhaps you mean it is inappropriate to weight personal consequences of our actions higher than consequences to other people?
RevTestament Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 It was in September 2013 where I received a priesthood blessing from my Bishop and home teacher where he said I was forgiven of all my sins and he started crying and the spirit hit me like a drug overwhelming my whole body and I felt like I was being pulled out of my body and being hugged even though there were only hands on my head. That is the one time I recognized feeling the spirit.When I received the Melchizedek priesthood it was a "tangible" feeling, but I have felt the spirit many other times in my life. I felt it strongly when I finally read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. I have felt the presence of God in various ways, but I can't say I've ever had "a vision." I've heard his voice, but the most powerful were like being lifted up in spirit and just knowledge flowing into me - I don't really know how else to describe it. But I would say yours too was quite "tangible" and memorable. I assume you have completely read the BOM and prayed about it?
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 I've read the Book of Mormon through 4 times and prayed about it.
Tacenda Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Even if I ever stopped believing in the Mormon church or Joseph Smith I'd never give up my belief in God or Jesus. Those 2 are the basis of my belief. Always have been and always will be. I'm just questioning some church history as I find out about it that I never know that is troublesome.Been there, doing that! Here is a place to read other than the CES Letter.... http://mormonismincontext.com/ I found out about it from listening to these podcasts...they discuss the CES Letter....I believe these podcasts or website leans toward having faith in the church. Similar to Richard Bushman or Terryl Givens. http://mormonmatters.org/2015/09/23/297-298-297-the-state-of-public-history-in-todays-mormonism-part-1/ Edited September 25, 2015 by Tacenda 1
BlueDreams Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 It was in September 2013 where I received a priesthood blessing from my Bishop and home teacher where he said I was forgiven of all my sins and he started crying and the spirit hit me like a drug overwhelming my whole body and I felt like I was being pulled out of my body and being hugged even though there were only hands on my head. That is the one time I recognized feeling the spirit. Most the time the spirit is a lot quieter than that. I love those big experiences and have a handful littered throughout my life. But honestly, it would not be enough for me to maintain faith. The more gentler ways of the Spirit being manifest can take time and effort for us to recognize and then grow confidence in. And it entails making space in our lives for that to happen. A nice resource to begin understanding/exploring that can be found in PMG Ch 4 (see here). Good luck on your journey VGJ, BD 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Well sometimes I feel like I'm feeling the spirit when I'm watching Lion King or an emotional scene of a video game like Kingdom Hearts. Or sometimes when I break down crying during a prayer. Maybe I've been feeling the spirit more than I realize but the one time I full recognized and was aware of it was that blessing I talked about where it was the strongest it's ever been. Then again, I also thought I was "feeling the spirit" when my friend handed me a brownie laced with enough marijuana to put me through a 8 hour psychosis episode where I thought I died and thought I was Jesus and savior of the world. I felt out of my body the whole time until I came down. That was an interesting experience telling the paramedics and police that they are all forgiven of their sins since I died for them.
Tacenda Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 I linked two podcasts on Mormon Matters, but really getting frustrated while listening. He says we need to qualify what we know. What is he talking about? It's like if something is wrong, it's wrong....end of story. I have a moral compass and trust that verses apologetics that try to put a bandaid on it and tell you to not look behind the curtain, sick of it. Just tell the truth and move on. Own up to it. This is the first time I've been so frustrated with a podcast on Mormon Matters. What happened to you guys, huh Dan? I'm talking into thin air now. JS took wives that were too young. He went behind Emma's back. Polygamy was hidden from those that joined the church. The church denied it ever was a doctrine or Joseph denied he was living it at one time. The church came clean with the Essays, why not the apologists? I know you're trying to keep members in but the stuff these guys are saying is so frustrating. Sorry VGJ, I almost don't want you to listen. Of course maybe the whole podcast doesn't have this tone as much. Just a part. But it's basically blaming the doubter. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 That's ok Tacenda. I've always found it feels like it's wrong to even wonder or question or doubt or seek more information from a third party source. It's almost as if we have to follow only what is presented before us by the church and can't choose other ways. That unfortunately is where the church turns into cultish.
HappyJackWagon Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 I linked two podcasts on Mormon Matters, but really getting frustrated while listening. He says we need to qualify what we know. What is he talking about? It's like if something is wrong, it's wrong....end of story. I have a moral compass and trust that verses apologetics that try to put a bandaid on it and tell you to not look behind the curtain, sick of it. Just tell the truth and move on. Own up to it. This is the first time I've been so frustrated with a podcast on Mormon Matters. What happened to you guys, huh Dan? I'm talking into thin air now. JS took wives that were too young. He went behind Emma's back. Polygamy was hidden from those that joined the church. The church denied it ever was a doctrine or Joseph denied he was living it at one time. The church came clean with the Essays, why not the apologists? I know you're trying to keep members in but the stuff these guys are saying is so frustrating. Sorry VGJ, I almost don't want you to listen. Of course maybe the whole podcast doesn't have this tone as much. Just a part. But it's basically blaming the doubter. If you haven't already looked at this thread http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66086-objective-fact-or-interpretation/ about objective fact or interpretation, it might help illustrate the difference. I'm listening to the Mormon Matters podcast now about history and I really like the perspective that history is subjective and is reliant on individual interpretation. That doesn't mean I have to accept someone elses interpretation and they don't have to accept mine, but it shows that everything is colored through the lenses of our individual bias. The bias may be right, or wrong, or incomplete, or whatever. It's a rather agnostic approach to the idea of understanding absolute truth. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 What's a problem I find is I've read through the Book of Mormon several times and prayed with real intent to know if the Book of Mormon is true and if Joseph Smith is a true prophet and I've never received an answer. I've gotten answers to other questions, even in the temple or at home while praying, but not this one.
Calm Posted September 25, 2015 Author Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Perhaps the answers to the other questions include the answers to the questions about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.For example, if you received an answer that templework is a commandment of God, that would also answer the question of whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet, imo, since the revelation of the need for modern temples amd the endowment came through him. Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm
Jeanne Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Prove Joseph "took other men's wives." Where are the children from these alleged "marriages?" DNA studies have been done using his known descendants, and the children of these other women weren't Joseph's. Read the DNA reports if you don't believe me So CFR on your evidence. I concede he sealed himself to them, but that wasn't a temporal marriage.Emma herself wrote about the scroll the Book of Abraham came from. That is not hearsay, but firsthand eyewitness account. Even the Book of Abraham references the first fascimile as an attachment, and says to refer to it, so the Book itself did not come from it. You can see from Joseph Smith's descriptions of the fascimiles that the Book of Abraham itself leaves out a great deal of what Joseph said was in the fascimiles, and therefore is NOT a translation of the fascimile scrolls as you are trying to allege.I've discussed how Joseph's interpretation of fascimile 1 does indeed correspond with some of what the experts say, and again they are interpreting them based upon approx 1000 BC understanding rather than 2000 BC understanding or perhaps even before that. Did Ham have a corrupted language or not?Where are the children..?? I ask that too..especially if there were mothers going to see Dr. Bennett about female problems and such. There is no CFR available..but I have read this in several places and we can call it my opinion or hearsay. Edited September 25, 2015 by Jeanne
webbles Posted September 26, 2015 Posted September 26, 2015 What's a problem I find is I've read through the Book of Mormon several times and prayed with real intent to know if the Book of Mormon is true and if Joseph Smith is a true prophet and I've never received an answer. I've gotten answers to other questions, even in the temple or at home while praying, but not this one.I've never received a spiritual witness for those topics either. In fact, the only two times that I can remember actually receiving a strong confirmation of something was about my wife and my college. So I don't see it as an issue that you haven't received one.
Kevin Christensen Posted September 26, 2015 Posted September 26, 2015 Sigh. For those who prefer to find direction an insight from those who have spent years preparing their minds for the temple experience, rather than those who offer their utter lack of preparation as a guide, a contrasting example can be found in an essay by Margaret Barker called "Belonging in the Temple" which concludes with this: To live a full and happy life, the ancient Hebrew had to be part of the temple and what it represented. In his culture, the craftsman had received his skills from God; the doctor had been taught by angels; the mathematicians had been taught by angels. Their wise men had been entrusted with the vision of God and creation which they had to teach faithfully to their people. Each person was made in the image of God, with all that that entailed by way of rights and responsibilities. Each was responsible for maintaining the covenant that gave him security. If the priests failed in their duty to guard the tradition, and the people acted in ignorance, the whole system was in danger. When Adam was set in the garden of Eden to till it and to keep it, (Gen. 2.15), the ancient Hebrew would also have recognised that Adam, the human, was set in the creation as its high priest, to preserve the traditional teaching. The words ‘till and keep’ can also be understood as ‘lead worship and preserve tradition’. The greatest joy of the ancient Hebrew was pilgrimage to the temple: ‘Blessed is he whom thou dost chose and bring near, to dwell in thy courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, thy holy temple (Psalm 65.4). ‘For one day in thy courts is better than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness.’ (Psalm 84.10). The greatest blessing the Hebrew could desire was to recognise the presence of God. In Hebrew, the word for ‘presence’ is the same as the word for ‘face’, and so ‘seeing the face of God’ was the greatest joy. The high priests used to bless the pilgrims to the temple: May the Lord bless you and keep you May the Lord make his face shine on you and give you life May the Lord life up his face on you and give you peace.’ (Numbers 6.24-26, my translation).http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/BelongingintheTemple.pdf FWIW Kevin Christensen Bethel Park, PA 1
Rivers Posted September 26, 2015 Posted September 26, 2015 Sigh. For those who prefer to find direction an insight from those who have spent years preparing their minds for the temple experience, rather than those who offer their utter lack of preparation as a guide, a contrasting example can be found in an essay by Margaret Barker called "Belonging in the Temple" which concludes with this:http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/BelongingintheTemple.pdfFWIWKevin ChristensenBethel Park, PAI've noticed you reference Margaret Barker quite often.
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