Ces Letter: Specfic Issues

[RevTestament]

This is my last post that I can make until 11:44PM, but I find the FairMormon articles biased for the church and don't give a good 3rd party view. Hearing church sources is just like hearing everything I've heard my whole life. I desire to hear other sources to make my judgements on. This CES letter showed a different point of view on so many issues that dig deep and raise questions. the FairMormon articles and reading the scriptures don't satisfy my need for the answers I was looking for. Like all of Joseph Smith's lies and dirty secrets while under God's power. Smith's lies and dirty secrets include his false translation of the Egyptian stuff and his lying about polygamy and destroying the printing press and marrying other men's wives. A man of God who had revelations unlike any other prophet should have made wiser decisions and not made so many mistakes as prophet seer and revelator.

If you don't believe the Book of Abraham, I think you will have trouble with Joseph Smith as a prophet. First of all one can tell right off that the Book of Abraham did not come from any of the fascimile scrolls we have. It came from another scroll found later in the breast of a mummy. Secondly, even Egyptologists will admit that the meaning of their letters and hieroglyphs shifted over time. What all the "experts" are relaying is what the text meant in the high classic period of Egypt from when they translate them, which is close to 1000 years after Abraham. In Egypt gods changed, hieroglyphics changed, the language changed - a lot of things changed in those thousand years. Just looking at fascimile 1 I can tell you Joseph got a lot of things right, starting with the crocodile being the god of the pharaoh which is Horus. The canoptic jars also represent gods - either the sons of Horus, or others depending on the time period. As for the polygamy, I don't think Joseph considered other men's wives to be his wife. He was sealed to them, but no marriage was consummated so they had not yet become wives. I think the implied denials of polygamy though, he viewed as for the wives sakes as well as his, as he did not want them to get arrested. He was kind of between a rock and a hard place on that one. What would you have done? Admitted it to the press? What consequences would that bring?

[RevTestament]

I like baptisms and laying on hands for the gift of the holy ghost and receiving the priesthood and temple sealings, but I've never felt comfortable or at peace in an endowment session. I've done sealings and felt wonderful, I've done baptisms and ordinations and felt wonderful, but I've always felt confused and akward during endowment sessions like something was off. It's been that way for 10 years.

Actually I find the endowment highly reflective of Revelation, Isaiah and the Torah. Doesn't really trouble me at all that maybe Joseph Smith felt inspired by a few masonic things. There is nothing masonic about the baptisms, the washings and annointings, and the sealings. There is nothing masonic about the endowment either except on the surface. It is all based on scripture. I understand it, and know that many of us may one day be called to fully honor those covenants. If you really listen to them, they are heavy duty. Maybe some Christians aren't ready for the meat.

[Thinking]

He was kind of between a rock and a hard place on that one. What would you have done? Admitted it to the press? What consequences would that bring?

 

Do we make decisions based on consequences?

Then, and only then, do we reach an understanding in our hearts—which motivates us to “do what is right; let the consequence follow.” (Hymns, 1985, no. 237.) The feelings of an understanding heart give us the sweet spirit of assurance of not only knowing but doing what is right no matter what the circumstances. Richard G. Scott

[VideoGameJunkie]

Back to the Masons and the endowment. Why were there things in the endowment ceremony that were taken out for so long such as the penalties and hand motions and the 5 points of fellowship. Those are Masonic things. Greg Kearney's post didn't satisfy me with his answers. All he said is that they were taken out in 1990. He never explained why they were there in the first place for almost 200 years. And again, it seems that Joseph Smith was the only prophet of the Latter Days that had revelations and he had sooooo many of them and all the other prophets and apostles since have had so little if at all. I've never heard a revelation in my lifetime. Joseph made up the whole Doctrine and Covenants from revelation. And his many visions and miracles. Why does only Joseph Smith get the benefit? Where's Thomas S Monson's revelations and visions?

[Kevin Christensen]

On ongoing revelation in the LDS church to people besides Joseph Smith,

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/04/we-believe-all-that-god-has-revealed?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/136?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passing-up-the-heavenly-gift-part-one-of-two/

On the use of some Masonic symbolism in the Endowment, see Rough Stone Rolling, 450-52.

And consider that the Endowment is a symbolic drama, intended to communicate. D&C 1 explains that the revelation comes to men in their own language and understanding. If the language and understanding of the audience changes, so too, can the language. That is what happened in 1990. I've already linked to several different approaches that show that the essentials of the endowment already appear in the Book of Mormon in explicit temple contexts. One of the things that kept people from noticing is that they were so focused on the Masonic elements in Nauvoo that the overlooked the explicit temple content of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, that is one of the things that keeps people from noticing Welch's book, despite the not-too-subtle title, "Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple and the Sermon on the Mount."

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[VideoGameJunkie]

Ok so if prophets since Joseph Smith have been receiving revelation how come we have no more canonized scripture added to Doctrine and Covenants besides section 138? Are we done with scriptures forever now? Will there be no new scriptures?

[VideoGameJunkie]

In D&C 132 it says the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed. If Joseph wasn't having sex with his wives then why was he sealed to so many women, and if he was having sex to raise seed then what was he doing marrying teenagers? Did Joseph fail at polygamy after writing D&C 132? He didn't even ask Emma Smith for permission.

[webbles]

In D&C 132 it says the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed. If Joseph wasn't having sex with his wives then why was he sealed to so many women, and if he was having sex to raise seed then what was he doing marrying teenagers? Did Joseph fail at polygamy after writing D&C 132? He didn't even ask Emma Smith for permission.

D&C 132 doesn't say the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed (I'm open to be corrected).  I think you are thinking of Jacob 2:30.  I also don't see why the statement in Jacob 2:30 must be specific about a single man when Joseph appears to have been commanded to reveal polygamy to others in the church.  So what if Joseph wasn't able to raise seed?  Brigham Young, John Taylor, and a host of others sure did.  Should we also condemn Eliza Snow because she didn't raise any seed even though she was a huge advocate of polygamy?

 

And teenagers are very capable of having children.  I have a great-great-something grand aunt who was married at the age of 14 (to a 61 year old) and had 3 children by the time she was 20.

 

As for asking Emma Smith for permission, did Abraham ask Sarah's permission before attempting to sacrifice their only son?  Did Rebekkah ask permission of Isaac before tricking him into blessing Jacob?  Did Abraham ask Sarah's permission before lying about their relationship to the pharaoh?  Should Joseph have asked for permission?  Yes.  I personally do think he asked for permission in the beginning and she said no.  He then felt it necessary to keep doing it even without her blessing.  D&C 132:55-56 seems to give that idea to me.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Then he was a terrible husband to Emma. And another question is could a man like Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon or was it inspired translation from God. Here's an article explaining both sides. http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htmA man could write the Book of Mormon, especially with help if someone could write the Lord of the Rings books which are really complicated. Also, Mohammad was illiterate and he wrote the Quaran by himself. Unless he also was inspired of God.

Edited September 25, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

In D&C 132 it says the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed. If Joseph wasn't having sex with his wives then why was he sealed to so many women, and if he was having sex to raise seed then what was he doing marrying teenagers? Did Joseph fail at polygamy after writing D&C 132? He didn't even ask Emma Smith for permission.

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

[Calm]

 Here's an article explaining both sides. 

Mormonthink is not a site that explains both sides or presents things in the most accurate way no matter how many times they say so themselves.

 

They are trying to destroy faith in the gospel and the Church:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

 

"I find the FairMormon articles biased for the church"

 

​Please show at least as much caution with other sites as you are with FairMormon.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

In D&C 132 it says the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed. If Joseph wasn't having sex with his wives then why was he sealed to so many women, and if he was having sex to raise seed then what was he doing marrying teenagers? Did Joseph fail at polygamy after writing D&C 132? He didn't even ask Emma Smith for permission.

There are exceptions to the rule to most things in life.  Put yourself in the position of Joseph.  He was constantly harassed and thrown in jail.  He probably felt that his life would be taken at any moment and thought leaving a bunch of kids without their father was not the best thing to do.  Also if polygamy is JUST about raising up seed, should we assume that an infertile man could never practice polygamy?   Had Joseph asked for permission, would it have been given by Emma?

[carbon dioxide]

Then he was a terrible husband to Emma. And another question is could a man like Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon or was it inspired translation from God. Here's an article explaining both sides. http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htmA man could write the Book of Mormon, especially with help if someone could write the Lord of the Rings books which are really complicated. Also, Mohammad was illiterate and he wrote the Quaran by himself. Unless he also was inspired of God.

You do it then.  But don't use a computer or typewriter.  NO, NO, NO.  Do it as Joseph did.  Sit down with a scribe.  Put your face in a hat and speak.  Have your scribe write each word down as you say. And there is no do overs.,  You can't say to your scribe, scratch that paragraph. Write this instead.  Have your book about the length of the BOM and do it in the time frame he did.  Then put your book on the web and lets analyze it.

 

If Joseph was a terrible husband to Emma, what was her last words before she died? 

Edited September 25, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hey I'm just asking how Mohammed could write the Quaran too. That must be a God inspired book too right? Since he was illiterate and uneducated. And calm I never see Fairmormon take the other side of the argument. That's a biased site for sure. We're only supposed to take church approved information to read? Isn't that the sign of indoctrination?

Edited September 25, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

And calm I never see Fairmormon take the other side of the argument. That's a biased site for sure.

 

We state up from we are there to defend the Church.  I don't see why you should be surprised by that or think there is something wrong with it.  Anyone who reads it should understand that it is our purpose to defend the Church.  However, that doesn't mean we are going to lie or twist information.  Just because we are pro church doesn't mean we are wrong in what we say.  We might be, but it isn't automatic because we are believers in the LDS faith.  You should give the information and opinions we hold as much attention and trust as you appear to be willing to give those who attack the Church.

 

I never said nor did FairMormon that we should only use church approved information to read.  We certainly cite plenty of sources that have not gone through correlation or aren't cited on the Church's website.  Do you think your own bias might be leading you to put a negative slant on comments who you see as biased towards the Church?  (I am biased towards the Church, never have claimed otherwise)

 

I am saying you should be as cautious with every other site as well as with FairMormon.  Just because a site claims it is presenting multiple sides, does not mean it is doing so well.  And everyone has a bias, no one approaches a topic without assumptions or a set of beliefs.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[Tacenda]

You do it then.  But don't use a computer or typewriter.  NO, NO, NO.  Do it as Joseph did.  Sit down with a scribe.  Put your face in a hat and speak.  Have your scribe write each word down as you say. And there is no do overs.,  You can't say to your scribe, scratch that paragraph. Write this instead.  Have your book about the length of the BOM and do it in the time frame he did.  Then put your book on the web and lets analyze it.

 

If Joseph was a terrible husband to Emma, what was her last words before she died?

He had several years to write the story on his own and then tell it to his scribe. And there were thousands of corrections made to the BoM, almost like a computer or typewriter...White out.

But no dog in the fight. I no longer know anything anymore. This has been a long insane road.

Directing this to VGJ now...VGJ, you were just talking about working in Security at the temple, what happened from then until now? You don't need to go to Mormonthink, you have everything you need here.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I dunno Tacenda, maybe Satan got into my mind and corrupted my brain. That's talked about in my patriarchal blessing as a warning so looks like it's coming true. And google linked me to a mormonthink article when I googled "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon". I didn't know it was supposed to be an only anti Mormon site since the article gave multiple point of views.

Edited September 25, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[RevTestament]

Do we make decisions based on consequences?

I think he did. Perhaps that was part of his imperfection.

[RevTestament]

Then he was a terrible husband to Emma. And another question is could a man like Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon or was it inspired translation from God. Here's an article explaining both sides. http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htmA man could write the Book of Mormon, especially with help if someone could write the Lord of the Rings books which are really complicated. Also, Mohammad was illiterate and he wrote the Quaran by himself. Unless he also was inspired of God.

Actually there are stories of people who acted as his scribe. At least one said Mohammed accepted his suggestions on what to say. He then decided Mohammed wasn't a prophet, and left Medina.

The Koran denies the Son. It is the antithesis of the Bible.

Zech 5:4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

[Calm]

Do we make decisions based on consequences?

Of course we make decisions based on consequences.  Isn't a choice right or wrong because of the consequences to that choice?  It is wrong to discriminate in regards to race because it has the consequence of hurting someone.  It is right to be charitable because it has the consequence of helping someone.

 

Perhaps you mean it is inappropriate to weight personal consequences of our actions higher than consequences to other people?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Calm

[RevTestament]

Back to the Masons and the endowment. Why were there things in the endowment ceremony that were taken out for so long such as the penalties and hand motions and the 5 points of fellowship. Those are Masonic things. Greg Kearney's post didn't satisfy me with his answers. All he said is that they were taken out in 1990. He never explained why they were there in the first place for almost 200 years. And again, it seems that Joseph Smith was the only prophet of the Latter Days that had revelations and he had sooooo many of them and all the other prophets and apostles since have had so little if at all. I've never heard a revelation in my lifetime. Joseph made up the whole Doctrine and Covenants from revelation. And his many visions and miracles. Why does only Joseph Smith get the benefit? Where's Thomas S Monson's revelations and visions?

I really like Monson since I was a boy. I believe he is quite in tune with the spirit. I've never seen him try to force the spirit. It all the presidents of the church were claiming visions, etc, I would probably get alarmed. But the Lord does things according to His appointed time - not yours. There is and will be more scripture. Most of the Protestant Churches deny that, and so will deny the revelations of the two witnesses who have yet to speak, unless they change. As for the temple endowment I believe it has changed in preparation for the 7th seal.

[VideoGameJunkie]

What's the 7th seal?

[RevTestament]

Of course we make decisions based on consequences.  Isn't a choice right or wrong because of the consequences to that choice?  It is wrong to discriminate in regards to race because it has the consequence of hurting someone.  It is right to be charitable because it has the consequence of helping someone.

 

Perhaps you mean it is inappropriate to weight personal consequences of our actions higher than consequences to other people?

Hi Calm,

Your argument isn't with me - take it up with Thinking.

[sunstoned]

If you don't believe the Book of Abraham, I think you will have trouble with Joseph Smith as a prophet. First of all one can tell right off that the Book of Abraham did not come from any of the fascimile scrolls we have. It came from another scroll found later in the breast of a mummy. Secondly, even Egyptologists will admit that the meaning of their letters and hieroglyphs shifted over time. What all the "experts" are relaying is what the text meant in the high classic period of Egypt from when they translate them, which is close to 1000 years after Abraham. In Egypt gods changed, hieroglyphics changed, the language changed - a lot of things changed in those thousand years. Just looking at fascimile 1 I can tell you Joseph got a lot of things right, starting with the crocodile being the god of the pharaoh which is Horus. The canoptic jars also represent gods - either the sons of Horus, or others depending on the time period. As for the polygamy, I don't think Joseph considered other men's wives to be his wife. He was sealed to them, but no marriage was consummated so they had not yet become wives. I think the implied denials of polygamy though, he viewed as for the wives sakes as well as his, as he did not want them to get arrested. He was kind of between a rock and a hard place on that one. What would you have done? Admitted it to the press? What consequences would that bring?

CFR on everything in this posting.  There is no lost scroll.  That is hearsay.  JS translation of the of the facsimiles does not come anywhere close what the real translation is.  No Egyptian scholar takes the JS translation seriously.   JS took other men's wives and lied to Emma and others about it.  This topic has been discussed over and over.  Read the Essays if you don't believe me.

[RevTestament]

What's the 7th seal?

The last 7000 years ie "the millennium"

Joseph was the covenant bringer of the 6th seal see D & C 77