Ces Letter: Specfic Issues

[readstoomuch]

Thanks readstoomuch. I never had these questions growing up because I was blindly following in ignorance with no knowledge of these issues until recently. It also didn't help that once I was put on limite status I decided to look at other Mormon message boards and found one called New Order Mormon which I didn't realize until I viewed it that it was all questioning Mormons or former Mormons who still hold on but have doubts. Seeing what they said didn't help my faith and that's where I found out about the CES letter.

Vgj you will get through this. Focus on Christ and serving others. Pray and read the scriptures. I testify that the Bom and d & c have the power to make you happy and know how to live. Don't forget to read them.

[Kevin Christensen]

Thanks readstoomuch. I never had these questions growing up because I was blindly following in ignorance with no knowledge of these issues until recently. It also didn't help that once I was put on limited status I decided to look at other Mormon message boards and found one called New Order Mormon which I didn't realize until I viewed it that it was all questioning Mormons or former Mormons who still hold on but have doubts. Seeing what they said didn't help my faith and that's where I found out about the CES letter.

I think it helps to have road map for your own mind.

Try the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/Perry%20Scheme.pdf

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm doing a lot better with my doubts and questions. It made me realize that even if I have problems with Joseph Smith and his history I'll never have problems or lose faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus. It made me realize how important those 2 are to me. But I do have another question. Did Jesus ever establish a temple endowment ceremony or did they have them in the scriptures and is celestial eternarl marriage ever talked about in scripture before D&C 132? I'm not a scripture expert so I ask if Joseph Smith created those for our time only or if they existed before.

[Kevin Christensen]

I'm doing a lot better with my doubts and questions. It made me realize that even if I have problems with Joseph Smith and his history I'll never have problems or lose faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus. It made me realize how important those 2 are to me. But I do have another question. Did Jesus ever establish a temple endowment ceremony or did they have them in the scriptures and is celestial eternarl marriage ever talked about in scripture before D&C 132? I'm not a scripture expert so I ask if Joseph Smith created those for our time only or if they existed before.

The book of Hebrews in the New Testament is basically an interpretation on what the Temple means in light if the life of Jesus. For instance, see Hebrews 10:

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

For some help, read some Barker, for instance:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/RestoringSolomon.pdf

Some Welch on 3 Nephi as a temple text:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2271&index=2

And you might even want to read the Gospel of Phillip for the description of the mirrored Bridal chamber.

And for Joseph Smith, you might want to consider this sort of thing:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Considering_Joseph_Smith/Preliminary_test

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburgh, PA

[cinepro]

Nobody relates a story the exact same way every time they tell it.  Some times they might emphasis one part of their experience over another part.  They might not even mention something at all.  Paul has 3 versions of his story meeting Christ and none of them agree exactly.  There are differences in all of them.  One should look at the all the versions and find the consistent themes in all of them.  Worry about the little differences does not invalidate the experience.

 

That's not really an accurate model on how memory works.  

 

 

 

 So what is an "original memory?"⁶ The process of interpretation occurs at the very formation of memory—thus introducing distortion from the beginning. Furthermore, witnesses can distort their own memories without the help of examiners, police officers or lawyers. Rarely do we tell a story or recount events without a purpose. Every act of telling and retelling is tailored to a particular listener; we would not expect someone to listen to every detail of our morning commute, so we edit out extraneous material. The act of telling a story adds another layer of distortion, which in turn affects the underlying memory of the event. This is why a fish story, which grows with each retelling, can eventually lead the teller to believe it.

 

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

 

Assuming there is an objective reality to the story in the first place, the most reliable (but not perfect) recounting would be the first one.  Each subsequent one isn't a new recollection of the original objective event, but is instead a re-telling of the previous memory.  

 

In other words, each re-telling of the First Vision isn't independent from the previous one, but is instead a re-telling of the previous one, mixed in with any changes that are introduced consciously or subconsciously.

 

This can all be compensated for with a theory that God suspended the regular actions of human memory for Joseph and the First Vision (much as the Book of Mormon translation was a unique supernatural event).  So the idea that the 1838 retelling is the most accurate one (and worthy of canonization) isn't a result of natural operations of the memory, but is instead a miracle.

Edited September 17, 2015 by cinepro

[VideoGameJunkie]

I wish Jesus would have focused more on the temple ceremony and marriage sealing somewhere more in the scriptures then since it's our ticket to exaltation. It hasn't been emphasized as major important until Joseph Smith talks about it in D&C. Jesus just simply talked about being baptized receive Holy Ghost, and follow the commandments. Simple enough, but that will only get you so far after what Joseph Smith revealed is more important than what Jesus said and that's having temple ordinances done such as initiatory, endowment, and sealings. I wonder if Jesus was sealed to a spouse during His earthly life. These are the most important ordinances in the church necessary for exaltation and Joseph talks about them in D&C so we're the lucky ones who get to do billions of names in the temples for proxy work.

[Calm]

Assuming there is an objective reality to the story in the first place, the most reliable (but not perfect) recounting would be the first one

But that doesn't guarantee that significant (overall) parts of the event were left out of the story even if remembered.

"Every act of telling and retelling is tailored to a particular listener; we would not expect someone to listen to every detail of our morning commute, so we edit out extraneous material."

[Stargazer]

We don't know, we can only speculate. However, suspended animation for 1 hour is now successful in hospitals. Hopefully cryopreservation and cryobiology can improve in the future, but for now Cryonics is a religion or scientific fiction.

You're not seriously suggesting that if someone goes into cryonic suspension and is later revived, that then they can never die?

Nevertheless, there's a difference between immortality and eternal life. At least doctrinally.

[Bobbieaware]

I wish Jesus would have focused more on the temple ceremony and marriage sealing somewhere more in the scriptures then since it's our ticket to exaltation. It hasn't been emphasized as major important until Joseph Smith talks about it in D&C. Jesus just simply talked about being baptized receive Holy Ghost, and follow the commandments. Simple enough, but that will only get you so far after what Joseph Smith revealed is more important than what Jesus said and that's having temple ordinances done such as initiatory, endowment, and sealings. I wonder if Jesus was sealed to a spouse during His earthly life. These are the most important ordinances in the church necessary for exaltation and Joseph talks about them in D&C so we're the lucky ones who get to do billions of names in the temples for proxy work.

The Lord almost certainly did teach the temple endowment to the Nephites. After quoting at length the prophet Malachi, and the famous verses that speak of the hearts of the children being turned to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers being turned to the children by the work and spirit of Elijah, Mormon tells us the Lord taught the Nephites ALL THINGS pertaining to the kingdom of God. But soon thereafter Mormon tells the modern readers of the Book of Mormon that the Lord forbade him to include all things the Lord taught the Nephites in his abridgment. Mormon the goes on to say that if enough of the latter-day Gentiles accept the basic presentation of the Gospel found in the Book of Mormon, then the greater things the Lord taught the Nephites would be revealed to them (us). And that's exactly what happened. Here is one of the pertinent portions of the Book of Mormon pertaining to the fact that the Book of Mormon does not contain the deeper teachings of the Lord to the Nephites:

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things which have been commanded me of the Lord. And now I, Mormon, make an end of my sayings, and proceed to write the things which have been commanded me. (3 Nephi 26)

Edited September 17, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[cinepro]

The Lord almost certainly did teach the temple endowment to the Nephites. After quoting at length the prophet Malachi, and the famous verses that speak of the hearts of the children being turned to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers being turned to the children by the work and spirit of Elijah, Mormon tells us the Lord taught the Nephites ALL THINGS pertaining to the kingdom of God. But soon thereafter Mormon tells the modern readers of the Book of Mormon that the Lord forbade him to include all things the Lord taught the Nephites in his abridgment. Mormon the goes on to say that if enough of the latter-day Gentiles accept the basic presentation of the Gospel found in the Book of Mormon, then the greater things the Lord taught the Nephites would be revealed to them (us). And that's exactly what happened. Here is one of the pertinent portions of the Book of Mormon pertaining to the fact that the Book of Mormon does not contain the deeper teachings of the Lord to the Nephites.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. (3 Nephi 26)

 

The real question is whether it resembled 19th century Masonry, or it was adapted from a contemporary rite known to the Nephites at that time...?

[Bobbieaware]

The real question is whether it resembled 19th century Masonry, or it was adapted from a contemporary rite known to the Nephites at that time...?

I edited my post to include the correct verses (somehow incorrect verses got pasted).

In answer to your question, after reading Hugh Nibley's 'The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri,' I'm quite certain that the endowment, for the most part, is ancient. It seems to me that endowment ceremony used to coronate the ancient Egyptian pharohs appears too similar to the modern endowment to be coincidental.

[Bit]

The History doesn't bother me at all, and I don't care about the Book of Abraham criticisms. 

 

 

 

That is a reason why many historians believe the witnesses were probably sincere about their testimony.  

 

The CES letter doesn't bother me at all, it makes a lot of poor assumptions. What bothers me is my failure to recognize the Spirit, and what I learned about the human brain. FairMormon has said little about confirmation bias, patternicity, and hallucinations. What also bothers me is Cryonics, especially the claim that Cryonics is a better Pascal's Wager than Theism. There is no verifiable evidence that Cryonics is going to work, but what if I have to choose between faith in God and Cryonics? When I learned about Cryonics and Transhumanism it hurt my faith because I realized that Theistic religion is not the only one that offers an afterlife. 

 

Um... what? How does Cryonics offer an afterlife? Transhumanism, in theory, could allow you to use technology to prolong your life, but that isn't really an afterlife.

[readstoomuch]

I wish Jesus would have focused more on the temple ceremony and marriage sealing somewhere more in the scriptures then since it's our ticket to exaltation. It hasn't been emphasized as major important until Joseph Smith talks about it in D&C. Jesus just simply talked about being baptized receive Holy Ghost, and follow the commandments. Simple enough, but that will only get you so far after what Joseph Smith revealed is more important than what Jesus said and that's having temple ordinances done such as initiatory, endowment, and sealings. I wonder if Jesus was sealed to a spouse during His earthly life. These are the most important ordinances in the church necessary for exaltation and Joseph talks about them in D&C so we're the lucky ones who get to do billions of names in the temples for proxy work.

I think Jesus did. The appendix to The Message of the Joseph Papyrus: an Egyptian Endowment has six writings from early Christian writings that have super close connections/parallels to the Temple, probably the easiest way to get some awesome evidence for the temple.

Edited September 18, 2015 by readstoomuch

[readstoomuch]

VGJ,

If you are really feeling better, why don`t you take a month off.  Just read proLDS/scriptures and just try to enjoy living and the blessings and fellowship of the gospel.  Think about how you can make church as Christ centered as possible.  That often means having charity and service to others.  You can always resurrect this thread in a month and we can take on some of the items.  If you can`t keep away from the controversial, then at least give equal time to the scriptures.  A general authority gave me that advice when I was having doubts many years ago.  It helped and I felt the spirit tell me that it was a wise things as he said it.  I always appreciated that advice.  

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well what I'm trying to do is apply for the security guard opening at my local temple to see if I can make working for the temple and protecting the temple and the people in it my livelihood. Like I said in another thread I've spent the past 4 years doing security so this would be a great combination of work and church.

[canard78]

I think Jesus did. The appendix to The Message of the Joseph Papyrus: an Egyptian Endowment has six writings from early Christian writings that have super close connections/parallels to the Temple, probably the easiest way to get some awesome evidence for the temple.

You're referencing this I presume?

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/the-message-of-the-joseph-smith-papyri/

I wonder why Jesus/God decided these awesome evidences for the temple were better placed in obscure texts instead of the Book of Mormon or the New Testament.

[Kevin Christensen]

You're referencing this I presume?

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/the-message-of-the-joseph-smith-papyri/

I wonder why Jesus/God decided these awesome evidences for the temple were better placed in obscure texts instead of the Book of Mormon or the New Testament.

Perhaps he thought that the Temple discourses spread throughout the translated portion of the Book of Mormon might be sufficient for now for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear what is going in. Jacob's Day of Atonement Discourse, Benjamin at the Temple, Alma and Amulek on temple themes, and especially the endowment in 3 Nephi 8-28.

It's all there.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[canard78]

Perhaps he thought that the Temple discourses spread throughout the translated portion of the Book of Mormon might be sufficient for now for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear what is going in. Jacob's Day of Atonement Discourse, Benjamin at the Temple, Alma and Amulek on temple themes, and especially the endowment in 3 Nephi 8-28.

It's all there.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Perhaps. Or perhaps it's only there for eyes that want it to be in there.

Given the content of the endowment is largely based on existing scripture it's probably not surprising that you're able to find parallels in the scriptures. What you certainly don't have is a like for like account all in one place. You're cherry picking scriptures to fit your own narrative and perspectives.

The endowment is something that was created by Joseph (perhaps through inspiration) and developed and expanded further by Brigham and then later adapted by other church leaders. It should therefore be no surprise that this organic creation of a brilliant Mormon religious ceremony is based on and mirrors Mormon scripture.

[churchistrue]

Perhaps he thought that the Temple discourses spread throughout the translated portion of the Book of Mormon might be sufficient for now for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear what is going in. Jacob's Day of Atonement Discourse, Benjamin at the Temple, Alma and Amulek on temple themes, and especially the endowment in 3 Nephi 8-28.

It's all there.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

KC, with all due respect, there can't be more than a half dozen people in the world that honestly see what you see re: the temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon.  At some point you have to wonder if it's really there, or are you reading what you want.

[Kevin Christensen]

KC, with all due respect, there can't be more than a half dozen people in the world that honestly see what you see re: the temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon.  At some point you have to wonder if it's really there, or are you reading what you want.

Even if I was the only person in the world who saw the Temple in the Book of Mormon, it would still be there. But it happens that I am not the only one. Jack Welch wrote the piece for Insights in the 80s that opened my eyes.

He has published two editions of Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple and the Sermon on the Mount. And that book so impressed Margaret Barker that she insisted that he do a version that focused on the Sermon on the Mount.

You'll notice that the fourth semester of Nibley's class on the Book of Mormon has Welch coming in to teach that material.

Welch also published on other temples in the Book of Mormon:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2246&index=14

Somewhere I've got a piece by Gordon Thomasson talking about the day that Nibley's eyes were opened. They'd been studying ancient temples without a thought for the Book of Mormon, and Nibley suddenly realized what he'd been missing for years.

His eyes were opened.

D. John Butler has published a couple of books on the topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Plain-Precious-Things-Religion-Visionary/dp/147816736X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442590332&sr=1-3&keywords=Butler+mormon

And I've published quite a lot over the past 25 years, starting in RBBM 2, comparing Eliade's Cosmos and History on the Year Rite with 3 Nephi, and using that to extend what Welch had seen.

And a chapter in "Paradigms Crossed" which, I can report, so impressed the Dean of Religion at BYU that he sent copies to all of the faculty.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2694&index=6

And this, in Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1081&index=15

The point is, it's not enough to look, you also have to see. You have learn something of the things of the ancient Jews, rather than looking with 21st century or 19th century assumptions. And I'm neither the first, only, or last to see.

Or perhaps you can look at the evidence that I, and several others have provided, and demonstrate, not just assert, why it really has nothing to do with temples. Hand waving dismissals don't persuade me.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburgh, PA

[churchistrue]

Even if I was the only person in the world who saw the Temple in the Book of Mormon, it would still be there. But it happens that I am not the only one. Jack Welch wrote the piece for Insights in the 80s that opened my eyes.

He has published two editions of Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple and the Sermon on the Mount. And that book so impressed Margaret Barker that she insisted that he do a version that focused on the Sermon on the Mount.

You'll notice that the fourth semester of Nibley's class on the Book of Mormon has Welch coming in to teach that material.

Welch also published on other temples in the Book of Mormon:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2246&index=14

Somewhere I've got a piece by Gordon Thomasson talking about the day that Nibley's eyes were opened. They'd been studying ancient temples without a thought for the Book of Mormon, and Nibley suddenly realized what he'd been missing for years.

His eyes were opened.

D. John Butler has published a couple of books on the topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Plain-Precious-Things-Religion-Visionary/dp/147816736X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442590332&sr=1-3&keywords=Butler+mormon

And I've published quite a lot over the past 25 years, starting in RBBM 2, comparing Eliade's Cosmos and History on the Year Rite with 3 Nephi, and using that to extend what Welch had seen.

And a chapter in "Paradigms Crossed" which, I can report, so impressed the Dean of Religion at BYU that he sent copies to all of the faculty.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2694&index=6

And this, in Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem:

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1081&index=15

The point is, it's not enough to look, you also have to see. You have learn something of the things of the ancient Jews, rather than looking with 21st century or 19th century assumptions. And I'm neither the first, only, or last to see.

Or perhaps you can look at the evidence that I, and several others have provided, and demonstrate, not just assert, why it really has nothing to do with temples. Hand waving dismissals don't persuade me.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburgh, PA

Sorry, KC.  I react to language like God believes everyone with "eyes to see and ears to hear" would identify that material like you have.  My bad.

[Calm]

Sorry, KC.  I react to language like God believes everyone with "eyes to see and ears to hear" would identify that material like you have.  My bad.

So you don't believe these scriptures that say this are inspired, but purely manmade?

[churchistrue]

So you don't believe these scriptures that say this are inspired, but purely manmade?

I'm not understanding your question.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm surprised in the CES letter he never brought up 2nd anointings or maybe I missed that part. I read about Tom Phillips' and his wife's second anointing and wonder how come only the elect few "Stake Presidents, Mission Presidents, Temple Presidents, and General Authorities are able to receive this while the rest of us will never get that chance and why it's such a secret. If it's something that basically guarantees you're in the Celestial Kingdom I think many would want that. Why are only the leaders chosen, while the peasants and meek of the earth left in the dust?

[RevTestament]

I'm doing a lot better with my doubts and questions. It made me realize that even if I have problems with Joseph Smith and his history I'll never have problems or lose faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus. It made me realize how important those 2 are to me. But I do have another question. Did Jesus ever establish a temple endowment ceremony or did they have them in the scriptures and is celestial eternarl marriage ever talked about in scripture before D&C 132? I'm not a scripture expert so I ask if Joseph Smith created those for our time only or if they existed before.

John and Jesus established baptism as a token of the new covenant.

Was that covenant made with the Gentiles? I think it moved to the Gentiles, but was made with His sheep.

The Gentiles were later grafted in.

 

Was there another covenant? I believe so.

There has been a new covenant for each of the 7 seals.

Isaiah says He would make an everlasting covenant with the gentiles. I believe this prophecy related at least in part to the temple covenant established by Joseph Smith in the 6th seal. So we shouldn't expect to find it being started in person by Jesus.

My 2 pennies