Ces Letter: Specfic Issues

[RevTestament]

We can discuss the first vision accounts and how there were 4 different ones, including some not even seeing God. How could you get 4 accounts completely different on what should be the most important moment of your life? Seeing God and Jesus.

Again, you are looking at it with the demanding lens of a future onlooker. History just doesn't work like that. People have motives, fears, faulty memories, etc. I believe Joseph that he did see the Father and the Son - Stephen spoke similarly. Try putting yourself in Joseph's shoes. Are you going to tell everyone you saw God? If when you start telling the story, they start making faces of doubt, etc, are you going to continue, and insist you saw God, to see them laugh, and not only mock you but God? I'm sure Joseph did not feel that holding some details from some people was dishonest.

Well, that is my take on the situation. I believe Joseph had such an extremely powerful and sacred experience that it affected him quite profoundly, and he would have been quite sensitive about it, and to the reactions of others.

The fact that he chose to present the vision a little differently,  or forgot some details over the years such as his exact age, does not phase me. It really is the least of my concerns. I have had quite profound experiences, but I cannot now remember my age at the time at all. I believe the official version to be the truest version, because then he realized the full import of what he was saying, and how people would depend upon it. My guess is he probably went over it a few times.

[VideoGameJunkie]

There's a difference between saying just an angel and a vision into heaven and then saying you saw God and Jesus instead. Even at age 14 I would never forget or change seeing God and Jesus. I wouldn't change it several times.

[Calm]

There's a difference between saying just an angel and a vision into heaven and then saying you saw God and Jesus instead. Even at age 14 I would never forget or change seeing God and Jesus. I wouldn't change it several times.

Perhaps this info can help:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision

[Calm]

There is a formatting problem when I try to edit the previous post so new one instead...

Two FM conference talks that have good insights into the variations imo:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2011-fair-conference/2011-four-accounts-and-three-critiques-of-joseph-smiths-first-vision

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-joseph-smiths-visions-his-style-and-his-record

Make that three:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-the-original-context-of-the-first-vision-narrative-1820s-or-1830s

Edited September 16, 2015 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

Is fair mormon an official church source?

[readstoomuch]

There's a difference between saying just an angel and a vision into heaven and then saying you saw God and Jesus instead. Even at age 14 I would never forget or change seeing God and Jesus. I wouldn't change it several times.

I think it was a pretty personal experience for a number of years, maybe most of his life.  I think that it is important to read all of the versions of the vision before you get stuck on any one version or the details.  You may believe whom you wish, but there are those who believe that a story told too closely the same way may be contrived whereas true stories differ by some details depending on the audience and age of the story teller.  I think JS may have been like Luther in that he wasn`t planning on starting a church, he just knew there were problems with the one in power at the time.  It may have been very hard to explain in words. That changed as his knowledge, education, experience and age changed.  There are plenty of good discussions of First Vision.  I think the shortest is still An Anonymous Response by a Latter Day Saint historian.  It is towards the first part and isn`t very long.  

[Thinking]

You may believe whom you wish, but there are those who believe that a story told too closely the same way may be contrived whereas true stories differ by some details depending on the audience and age of the story teller.

 

This is what entertains me about mormon apologetics. Contradictions and bulls-eyes are both evidences of Joseph's prophetic calling.

[Rivers]

Is fair mormon an official church source?

No but FAIR is on good terms with the church.

[Brian 2.0]

This is what entertains me about mormon apologetics. Contradictions and bulls-eyes are both evidences of Joseph's prophetic calling.

Exactly. I don't see this type of leeway being given to any critical sources where their story changes on different tellings.

[CA Steve]

Exactly. I don't see this type of leeway being given to any critical sources where their story changes on different tellings.

Charles Anthon

[CA Steve]

Try putting yourself in Joseph's shoes.

When I do that, his early versions of the 1st vision seem to line up best with what one would expect from a typical conversion experience encouraged by revivalist preachers of the time. Such experiences were very common. I believe Lucy had one also.

[RevTestament]

There's a difference between saying just an angel and a vision into heaven and then saying you saw God and Jesus instead. Even at age 14 I would never forget or change seeing God and Jesus. I wouldn't change it several times.

Uh huh.

So if you had this vision, and felt the presence of God fill your body, and then depart from you, you would immediately go and tell everyone?

So when you do, your life falls apart. Your friends hang up the phone on you. People stop calling on you for work, and you become an unemployed vagabond.

You are still going to go and tell the same story.??? I strongly doubt it.

You are going to feel betrayed. You are going to wonder if you were supposed to tell the story since God didn't tell you to, etc.

You are goint to wonder if you needed persmission to tell everything.

You are going to wonder why you had this vision to help people, if they reject you and refuse "to be helped."

You are going to wonder if you are displeasing God.

 

If not, I think you wouldn't be human.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Rev but the main thing is I wouldn't CHANGE the story 4 times if it was that devine. I let people who aren't mormon know all the time about the one time I truly felt the spirit and love of God enter my body even though some mocked my claim. I won't change my story 4 times.

[carbon dioxide]

Rev but the main thing is I wouldn't CHANGE the story 4 times if it was that devine. I let people who aren't mormon know all the time about the one time I truly felt the spirit and love of God enter my body even though some mocked my claim. I won't change my story 4 times.

Nobody relates a story the exact same way every time they tell it.  Some times they might emphasis one part of their experience over another part.  They might not even mention something at all.  Paul has 3 versions of his story meeting Christ and none of them agree exactly.  There are differences in all of them.  One should look at the all the versions and find the consistent themes in all of them.  Worry about the little differences does not invalidate the experience.

[Tacenda]

Nobody relates a story the exact same way every time they tell it.  Some times they might emphasis one part of their experience over another part.  They might not even mention something at all.  Paul has 3 versions of his story meeting Christ and none of them agree exactly.  There are differences in all of them.  One should look at the all the versions and find the consistent themes in all of them.  Worry about the little differences does not invalidate the experience.

Is Jesus the same in all the versions?  That's the point. 

[Calm]

" Worry about the little differences does not invalidate the experience"

I wouldn't say they were all little differences.

My argument would be does the difference make sense given the context of the time, audience and attitudes of Joseph himself and how he saw his role. I think the evidence is good that they do, see the FairMormon talks I linked to for some of this evidence.

Others postulated he made up stuff based on how he changed his view of what was needed over the years. Why would this not also apply in the case of an actual experience, but with different emphasis or willingness to share?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Calm

[RevTestament]

Rev but the main thing is I wouldn't CHANGE the story 4 times if it was that devine. I let people who aren't mormon know all the time about the one time I truly felt the spirit and love of God enter my body even though some mocked my claim. I won't change my story 4 times.

Like I have been stressing, you are placing your personal circumstances in his time.

Try to put yourself in his circumstances in his time.

First, the first hand written account we even have of the story is from 1832 I believe, which is a good number of years after the event.

I think it important to note that this account says:    "there were many things which transpired that cannot be written"

So he was either told to leave things out or he had a strong spiritual impression that he ought not to tell them.

Combine that with what he says happened after be began relaying the experience to people:

His words were treated not only lightly but also with great contempt.

Listeners implied that he was a liar.

People told him that his experience originated with the Devil.

People became prejudiced against him. They spoke "all manner of evil against [him] falsely".

He was "hated".

 

Every account that he gives in the future is different as you partially note. Why? did he forget what he had written in 1832?

Or maybe he lost it, but now we have it? hardly

Maybe he just didn't care that he was making himself look badly to future readers?

If Joseph Smith was such a great story teller that he could make up the whole BOM complete with all the fine details of Nahom, and the one and only steam to the Red Sea out of northern Arabia and recite it out of a hat, how come he couldn't remember his first vision even days apart?

Or is something else going on there? I believe he left out details on purpose as the true account was long and sacred.

In his later years it really didn't matter anymore what people believed. He had a degree of financial stability, and a group of people around him who no longer persecuted him, so he desired to tell as much of the story as he was allowed.

In the early days he was relating the vision to people of the very creeds which the Lord considered an abomination. Why would he relate that to them when they already didn't believe?

Something else I didn't realize is that in his teachings Joseph referred to the risen Lord as an "angel." In the Greek angelos means "messenger." It is used to refer to the Hebrew "malek." So in his eyes it appears that Jesus was still or could be an angel or messenger of the Father.

 

Anyway, to me it is just not a deal breaker. I understand your concerns, and I hope you can resolve them. But to me, it is just one of those things that happens in history.

Have you sat down and compared each of Paul's conversion stories? There are 3 of them, and they are each different. In one those with him fall to the earth. In another they stood speechless, heard a voice but did't see anything (Acts 9), etc.

 

You say he is "changing" the story 4 times. He is using different words and giving different amounts of detail. In some he is apparently referring to Jesus as an angel. To Joseph that is not a lie. The Father told him: this is my Son, hear Him. So His Son is acting as an angel or messenger for the Father.

From the beginning it is apparent that Joseph chose not to relate many things which had transpired. It seems he was purposefully obtuse. You see this as a problem. I do not. I accept it as part of what he was going through and what was expected of him, and probably his own fear of relaying too much - a fear I can relate to.

Cheers and God bless you on your journey

[Calm]

Rev but the main thing is I wouldn't CHANGE the story 4 times if it was that devine. I let people who aren't mormon know all the time about the one time I truly felt the spirit and love of God enter my body even though some mocked my claim. I won't change my story 4 times.

Have you read the FM talks that I linked to yet?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I have, but they haven't helped completely.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Is fair mormon an official church source?

 

LOL you know the answer. Please stop playing "confused Mormon" I don't want them to think that I am also playing games like you.

 

You are wasting your time

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[readstoomuch]

Leave VGJ alone.  He will work through in his own time.  Whatever you are trying to tell him.  

 

VGJ.  No answer totally addresses all of the issues.  The fact is that their are questions at all will make a person doubt.  I think religion or any organization in general is going to have questions about its methodology.  Take global warming or supply side economics.  There are always questions.  

[VideoGameJunkie]

Skeptic Christian was to one to mock me when I previously brought up my issues with the letter so I don't take what he says with any credibility. It's like his posts are ignored and have no merit.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Thanks readstoomuch. I never had these questions growing up because I was blindly following in ignorance with no knowledge of these issues until recently. It also didn't help that once I was put on limited status I decided to look at other Mormon message boards and found one called New Order Mormon which I didn't realize until I viewed it that it was all questioning Mormons or former Mormons who still hold on but have doubts. Seeing what they said didn't help my faith and that's where I found out about the CES letter.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Skeptic Christian was to one to mock me when I previously brought up my issues with the letter so I don't take what he says with any credibility. It's like his posts are ignored and have no merit.

 

at least I ask serious questions. You think the CES letter is credible? LOL Give me a break

 

What next? The God Makers?

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Calm]

SC, you are not asking serious questions here, you are declared off topic in this thread. Either change focus solely on specific aspects of the CES letter nd how you deal with those issues or exit please.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Calm