When Is A Prophet A Prophet? Always!

[Ahab]

I am reminded of the old story about Lord Beaverbrook:

Lord Beaverbrook was speaking with a visiting Yankee actress. In a game of hypothetical questions, Beaverbrook asked the lady: ‘Would you sleep with a stranger if he paid you one million pounds?’ She said she would. ‘And if he paid you five pounds?’ The irate lady fumed: ‘Five pounds. What do you think I am?’ Beaverbrook replied: ‘We’ve already established that. Now we are haggling over the price"

If it is possible for a prophet not to be a prophet when opining about salsa, then at this point we are "just haggling over the price." Your contention is no longer the same as the OP, who claimed that a prophet is always a prophet and can never NOT be a prophet. The quibble now seems to be with how and when apologists determine when and if a prophet is speaking as one.

We've already established that too...always.

A prophet is always speaking as a prophet but a man is speaking as a prophet only when he is speaking for God.

If only we had some way to know when a man is speaking as a prophet while being assured by God that he is. Hmmm. If only.

[JLHPROF]

We follow our leaders within reason, and if they are in error the sin is upon their head not ours.  (I'm searching for this principle in the Standard Works - can I get some help finding the particular scripture where this principle is outlined?)

 

There's a reason you're not finding that scripture...(unless you consider our leaders as our parents).

[HappyJackWagon]

 

KevinG, on 01 Sept 2015 - 4:03 PM, said:

We follow our leaders within reason, and if they are in error the sin is upon their head not ours.  (I'm searching for this principle in the Standard Works - can I get some help finding the particular scripture where this principle is outlined?)

 

JLHPROF- There's a reason you're not finding that scripture...(unless you consider our leaders as our parents).

 

The principle is definitely taught like in Eyring's Safety in Counsel talk. Of course there's something a little circular about a prophet telling us a prophet can never lead us astray so we're safe in following.

[KevinG]

There's a reason you're not finding that scripture...(unless you consider our leaders as our parents).

 

There was definitely something about sustaining leaders and being found innocent if they err.  I'll do some digging.  Darn my converts knowledge of the scriptures...

[KevinG]

The principle is definitely taught like in Eyring's Safety in Counsel talk. Of course there's something a little circular about a prophet telling us a prophet can never lead us astray so we're safe in following.

 

Led astray in the context of leading us to hell or destroying the church, not led astray as in never making any errors.

Edited September 2, 2015 by KevinG

[KevinG]

Here are some verses that I was looking for.  The promises that if we sustain those called as representatives of the Lord we will be blessed.  Zions camp and D&C 105 is another good illustration of that principle.  If someone else can find a more compact verse that illustrates this principle I'd appreciate it.

 

D&C 21: 1 Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ...

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.  

 

D&C 124:45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

[Ahab]

Here are some verses that I was looking for. The promises that if we sustain those called as representatives of the Lord we will be blessed. Zions camp and D&C 105 is another good illustration of that principle. If someone else can find a more compact verse that illustrates this principle I'd appreciate it.

D&C 21: 1 Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ...

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.

D&C 124:45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them...

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

I'm aware of the principle but I don't remember the book, chapter or verse. Or journal, or whatever.

Like how when someone sins by killing someone else in a war when it is a sin to kill that person but instead of killing in sin himself he orders someone else to kill who kills only because he is following orders without thinking or realizing that what he is doing was wrong. The sin is then on the head of whoever gave that soldier the order to kill while knowing it was a sin to kill in that instance.

Sin requires knowing what is wrong or not right and doing it anyway. People who don't think something is wrong are not punished as if they knew it was wrong.

[Teancum]

Same argument. Different words now:

An apostle is not always speaking as a prophet, even when he is speaking in his official God-sanctioned capacity as an apostle

And the President of the Church isn't always speaking as a prophet, either, even when he is speaking in his official God-sanctioned capacity as the President of the Church.

The ONLY time ANY man is speaking as a prophet is when he is speaking for God, saying what God agrees with, and would say himself even though he may use his own language and not necessarily use the same words as another man who is essentially saying the very same thing.

So as I said before:

A prophet is always a prophet and thus always speaking for God but the only time any man is a prophet is when he is speaking for God.

That is both true and easy to understand, but you can disagree and continue to argue for as long as you want to.

Well this explanation sure does not build a lot of confidence.