Plagiarized Talks-Would You Say Something?

[Stargazer]

well, if all you do is get a topic and look up a talk on it and just take out an obvious reference to the author, "when I was sustained as an apostle" and that could take 5 minutes and just read the thing and you gave nothing of your own. I think he is a phony baloney, stealing others thoughts to just get through an assignment. It wouldn't bother me if someone wrote out a talk and gave it several times, I have heard the leaders do this-they wrote it! But when you hear music no one is trying to tell you that they wrote the William Tell overture, they give props to whomever wrote it.

 

Duncan, you use manuals to teach sunday school and PH/RS from, you're not supposed to wing it on your own.  Is that then phoney baloney? 

[The Nehor]

Of course it's worth it.  A class and then doing a one-shot is an effective method of teaching for the future.  A first-time speaker is going to remember the process.  It's repeatable.  Besides, you make up the material once and there's no need to make it up again.  What's the big effort?  Or do you just like disagreeing with me?

 

The thing about missionary training is that they are doing it day in and day out.  For two years.  They don't need training for that, just OJT.  It's the more seldom-used skills that we need training.  You've got it exactly backwards.

The problem is having to pull people out of other classes to be taught and teach this class about speaking. Missionaries desperately need more training because of the increased difficulty of their job and how much has to be put into it.

[Stargazer]

The problem is having to pull people out of other classes to be taught and teach this class about speaking. Missionaries desperately need more training because of the increased difficulty of their job and how much has to be put into it.

 

Yep, that's it.  You're arguing just to argue.  That what your picking at nits proves.  If I address the pulling people out of class issue, then you'll just find something else to run up the flagpole.

 

Reminds me of a conversation I once had with my 5 year old.

 

Why?  Because.  Why?  Because.  Etc.

[The Nehor]

Yep, that's it.  You're arguing just to argue.  That what your picking at nits proves.  If I address the pulling people out of class issue, then you'll just find something else to run up the flagpole.

 

Reminds me of a conversation I once had with my 5 year old.

 

Why?  Because.  Why?  Because.  Etc.

Thanks, I like to think I am young at heart.

[Gray]

It's a lazy practice, but it's not like they're making money off of someone else's work. 

[Duncan]

Duncan, you use manuals to teach sunday school and PH/RS from, you're not supposed to wing it on your own.  Is that then phoney baloney? 

 

true, but I don't say these are my own ideas when they aren't and I am not trying to impress anyone

[HappyJackWagon]

Duncan, you use manuals to teach sunday school and PH/RS from, you're not supposed to wing it on your own.  Is that then phoney baloney? 

Hardly the same thing as reading an entire talk and passing it off as your own with no attribution to the original author. It's lazy AND dishonest.

[Nevo]

A while ago I was looking up some of President Monson's talks on duty and noticed that he plagiarized Albert Schweitzer. So even the best of us fail sometimes.

 

___________________

 

"He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lake-side, He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same word: 'Follow thou me!' and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfil for our time. He commands. And those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is."

• Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus: A Critical Study of Its Progress from Reimarus to Wrede, trans. W. Montgomery (London: Adam and Charles Black, 1910), 401.

 

Thomas S. Monson, "The Paths Jesus Walked," April 1974; Ensign, May 1974, September 1992:

"As you and I walk the pathway Jesus walked, let us listen for the sound of sandaled feet. Let us reach out for the Carpenter’s hand. Then we shall come to know him. He may come to us as one unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside he came to those men who knew him not. He speaks to us the same words, '… follow thou me …' (John 21:22), and sets us to the task which he has to fulfill for our time. He commands, and to those who obey him, whether they be wise or simple, he will reveal himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in his fellowship; and they shall learn in their own experience who he is."

 

Thomas S. Monson, "The Call of Duty," April 1986; Ensign, May 1986:

"Brethren, let us learn our duty. Let us, in the performance of our duty, follow in the footsteps of the Master. As you and I walk the pathway Jesus walked, let us listen for the sound of sandaled feet. Let us reach out for the Carpenter’s hand. Then we shall come to know Him. He may come to us as one unknown, without a name, as by the lakeside He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words, 'Follow thou me' (John 21:22), and sets us to the task which He has to fulfill for our time. He commands, and to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings that they shall pass through in His fellowship; and they shall learn by their own experience who He is."

 

Thomas S. Monson, "Conference Is Here," April 1990; Ensign, May 1990:

"Let us live the commandments of God. Let us follow in the footsteps of His Son and our Savior, even Jesus Christ the Lord. As we sincerely and fervently seek Him, we shall indeed find Him. He may come to us as one unknown, without a name—as of old, by the lakeside, He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words, 'Follow thou me' (John 21:22), and sets us to the task which He has to fulfill for our time. He commands, and to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship; and they shall learn in their own experience who He is."

 

Thomas S. Monson, "The Way of the Master," April 1996; Ensign, May 1996, January 2003:

"If we truly seek our Lord and Savior, we shall surely find Him. He may come to us as one unknown, without a name, as of old by the lakeside He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words, 'Follow thou me,' and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time. He commands, and to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal Himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and they shall learn in their own experience who He is."

Edited August 25, 2015 by Nevo

[jkwilliams]

A while ago I was looking up some of President Monson's talks on duty and noticed that he plagiarized Albert Schweitzer. So even the best of us fail sometimes.

 

Next you're going to say we're human, or something.

[Nevo]

Next you're going to say we're human, or something.

 

Yes, to plagiarize is human; to correctly cite your sources is divine.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Nevo

[Ahab]

I believe most members already know that all good thoughts come to us from God and that bad thoughts come from Satan, but I suppose it still wouldn't hurt to mention that from time to time.

[rpn]

It is plagiarism, however approved or acceptable.   If you feel impressed by the spirit to do so, you absolutely should (a) suggest that the speaker remember to give credit; (b) mention the problem to the bishop with the note that at least the young people who are in the throes of figuring out academic integrity need to have good examples; © pray for the guilty parties (and the bishops who, poor things, may not even know plagiarism is going on because they don't know all the talks as well as you do).

[Stargazer]

true, but I don't say these are my own ideas when they aren't and I am not trying to impress anyone

[exasperation]For crying out loud, nobody said you were supposed to claim the talk as your own work, if it isn't.[/exasperation] Why do you insist upon these straw men, anyway?

How many people are giving talks on Sunday that they didn't themselves write? Possibly many of the youth. Possibly some of the adults. Is the young man or woman supposed to preface the talk by saying "My Dad wrote this talk for me", or is he just supposed to give the talk?

[Stargazer]

Hardly the same thing as reading an entire talk and passing it off as your own with no attribution to the original author. It's lazy AND dishonest.

You, Duncan and The Nehor are in cahoots to try to drive me around the bend. Admit to it! Straw Man City, because I never suggested that you palm off President Monson's talk as your own. Or anyone else's.

[Tacenda]

No we aren't trying to impress the audience, and that isn't what I was trying to say. You are missing the point, Duncan. It is not that we are trying to impress our hearers with our eloquence, it is that we provide the Spirit with a vehicle for inspiration. This requires an effective delivery. Does the Spirit convey anything when the words cannot be understood properly, whether through inability to speak the words correctly, or through boring the hearers to death while delivering the words in a flat monotone? It is the words which convey the meaning, yes, but the Spirit has a hard time confirming the words if they aren't spoken properly so they can be understood. Likewise, in a poor presentation, when we are constrained to using all our power of discernment to figure out what the heck the speaker is saying, this does not help the Spirit.

Two weeks ago one of our new young Deacons gave his first Sacrament meeting talk. It was a very well-conceived talk, it appeared to have been his own words, and it was well worth listening to. But he gave the talk in a cadence-less low monotone, never looking up from the podium where the printout lay. Half the congregation couldn't hear him, and half of those who could hear him fell asleep partway into it. I am not joking. It was a good talk, but the Spirit could not work through his delivery. The same talk, spoken clearly and in an interesting tone of voice would have been of some good effect.

To bad it wasn't printed in the Ensign. Nice that you strained to listen, or didn't get distracted!! Edited August 25, 2015 by Tacenda

[HappyJackWagon]

I believe most members already know that all good thoughts come to us from God and that bad thoughts come from Satan, but I suppose it still wouldn't hurt to mention that from time to time.

This is akin to when Bednar answered the question..."How can I tell the difference between my own thoughts and the spirit?" and he reportedly answered (paraphrase) "Easy, they are the same thing."

 

I don't believe for a second that every good thought is coming from the spirit any more than I believe every bad thought is a prompting of the devil. We have minds and we are capable of developing both good and bad thoughts on our own. There is no need for a continual possession of either a good or bad spirit.

Edited August 25, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[ksfisher]

This is akin to when Bednar answered the question..."How can I tell the difference between my own thoughts and the spirit?" and he answered "Easy, they are the same thing."

 

I don't believe for a second that every good thought is coming from the spirit any more than I believe every bad thought is a prompting of the devil. We have minds and we are capable of developing both good and bad thoughts on our own. There is no need for a continual possession of either a good or bad spirit.

 

It might be nice if you would edit your quote of Elder Bednar's to what he actually said. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I have to be the last speaker this Sunday and I have to speak on the broad subject "Promises of the Book of Mormon." Is there anyone here that can help me out with links or suggestions? I feel stumped.

[Ahab]

This is akin to when Bednar answered the question..."How can I tell the difference between my own thoughts and the spirit?" and he answered "Easy, they are the same thing."

I don't believe for a second that every good thought is coming from the spirit any more than I believe every bad thought is a prompting of the devil. We have minds and we are capable of developing both good and bad thoughts on our own. There is no need for a continual possession of either a good or bad spirit.

You don't have to believe it for it to be true, and if it helps you to rephrase the idea you can think about it this way: You can't get a good idea that God has never thought of before, and you can't get a bad idea that Satan hasn't already thought of either, so in that way all good thoughts you get are God's ideas and all bad ideas are Satan's...no matter who else besides them gets them.

So if you want to uphold the idea that ideas are intellectual property make sure you give credit where credit is due.

[Ahab]

I have to be the last speaker this Sunday and I have to speak on the broad subject "Promises of the Book of Mormon." Is there anyone here that can help me out with links or suggestions? I feel stumped.

I recommend that you use the Topical Guide to get an idea of the promises that are mentioned in the BoM and then just speak from your heart about what those mean to you, if anything.

Don't worry about saying what others have said. Just speak from your own heart and if it happens to be the same thing others have said so be it.

[Calm]

A while ago I was looking up some of President Monson's talks on duty and noticed that he plagiarized Albert Schweitzer. So even the best of us fail sometimes.

 

 

I wonder how much is from being from a generation who memorized texts as part of their education so there might be an expectation that others would recognize the reference without needing to be told who it is from.

[Calm]

This is akin to when Bednar answered the question..."How can I tell the difference between my own thoughts and the spirit?" and he answered "Easy, they are the same thing."

 

Is misquoting as bad as plagiarism in your view?

 

What he actually said:

 

If you and I would distinguish our personal emotions from the impressions placed in our hearts and minds by the Holy Ghost, then we must desire and seek, ask and discern, hear and obey, and then again desire and seek and ask and discern and hear and obey. Our faith and diligence and obedience are ongoing invitations for additional spiritual knowledge and insight. Faith leads to obedience, which yields wisdom and an even greater desire for added light and truth.

The process of discerning between our will and God’s will becomes less and less of a concern as time goes by and as we strive to rid ourselves of worldliness—and thereby cultivate the spirit of revelation in our lives. That is, as we mature spiritually, we begin to develop sound judgment, a refined and educated conscience, and a heart and mind filled with wisdom. It is not just that we have grown older, nor have we simply become smarter and had more experiences on which to draw, as important as those experiences are. Rather, the Holy Ghost has over time been expanding our intellect, forming our feelings, sharpening and elevating our perspective, such that we increasingly think and feel and act as the Lord would under similar circumstances. In short, we have made steady progress in obtaining “the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16).

 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2010/09/line-upon-line-precept-upon-precept-2nephi-2830?lang=eng

Edited August 25, 2015 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

I have to be the last speaker this Sunday and I have to speak on the broad subject "Promises of the Book of Mormon." Is there anyone here that can help me out with links or suggestions? I feel stumped.

 

Here's a First Presidency Message from President Monson that may help you get started: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/precious-promises-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

 

If I were giving the talk, I would narrow the focus to one or two promises that I find particularly meaningful (such as the promises in Moroni 10:32-33).

[The Nehor]

I believe most members already know that all good thoughts come to us from God and that bad thoughts come from Satan, but I suppose it still wouldn't hurt to mention that from time to time.

Are there some kind of neutral thoughts I can have or am I just a puppet of one or the other at all times?

[Nevo]

I wonder how much is from being from a generation who memorized texts as part of their education so there might be an expectation that others would recognize the reference without needing to be told who it is from.

 

I don't know. I don't think President Monson expected most people to recognize that he was quoting Schweitzer. I'd be surprised if there are fifty Mormons worldwide that have read The Quest of the Historical Jesus. It's pretty heavy going and not really what you'd call "faith-promoting," and that particular passage appears on the last page. I suspect President Monson saw (or heard) the quote elsewhere and copied it into his collection because it has a poetic ring to it. He may not even have realized that Schweitzer was the source. Once it got into his first talk, it was natural for him to recycle it in subsequent talks. It's just too bad that no one at the Ensign and New Era has ever caught it.