Theology & The L D S Temple – Now That They Know, How Will You Answer?

[Russell C McGregor]

The point of this thread isn’t to discuss the particulars of the LDS temple and the practices therein.  And I’m not generally in favor of people being recorded without their knowledge.  But whether content is secret (e.g., government documents disclosed via “WikiLeaks”) or sacred (temple content, in the eyes of believing LDS)—the internet seems an irresistible magnet that sooner or later makes pretty much everything accessible on the broadest imaginable scale.

 

I recently watched a video recorded inside an LDS temple on YouTube (I’ve watched a few things related to LDS, mostly debates between LDS and evangelical Christians & its all-knowing algorithm made a recommendation).  What struck me most were the theological implications of the content I was hearing.  Having never been “endowed” it quickly became evident to me that there’s a bit more to LDS doctrine than what gets discussed in church or on message boards.  There appears to be another layer to it I really don’t know much about.  But perhaps if I did understand it better--it would help me to better understand extended family members who carry a “temple recommend card.”

 

So I’d like to ask some questions about it and have dialogue with those who adhere to such things.  Obviously I can’t do it here.  But the bigger question (and no doubt better discussion) is this: Thanks to the internet, lots more people are going to get familiar with temple content, including investigators and membership candidates.  They’ll have questions about what they’ve seen & heard.  There will need to be answers.  Simply condemning the posters (or the viewers) of such content will be inadequate.

 

What should the response be?

 

--Erik

I will not dwell upon the fact (although it is a fact, and not at all controversial) that receiving stolen property is no better than stealing. Or that watching a video made by a peeping tom is no better than being a peeping tom.

Nor indeed shall I labour the point that anyone with a functioning conscience -- i.e. a conscience robust enough to restrain their actions -- would not do such things; nor that anyone with an even vestigial conscience would realise that, having done such things, it's not really smart to brag about it.

(I'll mention those points, but I won't dwell on them.)

But the point I do wish to dwell upon is the point that, having peeped through your neighbours' windows, you are now personally accountable for what you have learned thereby.

At some level, it must be apparent to you that, as a Christian (and I acknowledge your right to call yourself that, however stumbling your Christian walk) you ascribe to God the attributes of justice and mercy. And that the LDS Christian view of salvation imparts both of those attributes to God in far greater -- i.e. more plausibly divine -- abundance than the alternative you prefer.

After all, which divine action is more just? The one that extends the opportunity of salvation equally to all, or the one that restricts it to a self-satisfied clique of God's little favourites?

And which is more merciful? The one that unflinchingly consigns billions of humans to an eternity of unremitting torture, as punishment for being born without a chance to even hear of Christ and His Atonement, or the one that provides the chance of repentance to all of God's children, wherever and whenever they were born?

Which of these versions of the Gospel really sounds like "Good News?"

And the more you examine it, the more you will come to realise that your anti-Mormon ideology obliges you to argue that the God you worship could only come up with a considerably inferior program for salvation than the one devised by a false prophet.

You are, of course, free to choose your less perfect version of the Gospel. But now that you know that it is less perfect, you are accountable for what you do with that knowledge.

Think on that.

[saemo]

There is nothing wrong with honest curiosity but I don't think a faith needs to tell all to all. I know that anything untold can lead to a kind of mania to find out "what they are hiding". I am nosey myself.

Some people don't like surprises.

 

[The Nehor]

Some people don't like surprises.

I would suggest they try to learn to like them or life is going to be a pretty rough trip.

[cinepro]

The point of this thread isn’t to discuss the particulars of the LDS temple and the practices therein.  And I’m not generally in favor of people being recorded without their knowledge.  But whether content is secret (e.g., government documents disclosed via “WikiLeaks”) or sacred (temple content, in the eyes of believing LDS)—the internet seems an irresistible magnet that sooner or later makes pretty much everything accessible on the broadest imaginable scale.

 

What should the response be?

 

--Erik

 

 

 

As you can see, the preferred LDS method of talking about the Temple is to say as many words as possible about it without actually saying anything about it.  I suppose for lots of people, if you throw enough platitudes, bad analogies and thought-terminating cliches at them, their brain will shut off or they'll get distracted and you can move on to a new subject and forget that you never actually said anything meaningful about the original subject.

 

To answer your question, I would start with this quote from Brigham Young, as recently quoted in GC by President Packer:

 

 

 

“Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.”

 

I would then explain to the person that when we go to the Temple, in addition to learning these key words, signs and tokens, we are making sacred covenants with God.  These covenants are described by Elder Hales in this illustration from his recent book.  They include obedience to the Lord, chastity, consecrating our time and resources, and others.  The person could search on the Church website for lots of info on all of these.

 

 

(from this book)

 

In addition to the signs, key words and tokens and covenants, people are taken through the story of Adam and Eve.  They can see how this works by looking at this model of the Salt Lake Temple:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/scaled-model-provides-salt-lake-temple-open-house-experience

 

The different rooms and the significance of the story of Adam and Eve as told in the Temple are recounted in this article for LDS teenagers:

 

 

When you enter the temple, you will receive instructions and learn the important events of our eternal journey. You’ll learn about the creation of this world and about our first parents being placed in the Garden of Eden. You’ll learn how Satan tempted Adam and Eve and how they were cast out of the garden and out of the presence of God into our world, with its opposition in all things. Here they learned about the joys as well as the discomforts of life.

 

After Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden and placed in the world where we now live, they were taught the gospel, and they entered into covenants of obedience with God, just as you will in the temple. How we keep these covenants determines the nature of the life we will enjoy after this mortal experience.

 

In the eternal world there are kingdoms of glory. You will inherit one of these, depending on your performance in this life. The aim of the gospel and the purpose of temple marriage are not only to keep us together, but also to make us eligible for Heavenly Father’s highest reward for us—exaltation in the celestial kingdom. This kingdom is symbolized by the celestial room.

 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1975/06/in-the-house-of-the-lord?lang=eng

 

There is also special clothing that we wear in the Temple that is part of the ceremony, and then a specific design of underwear (called "the garment") that we wear outside of the Temple.  This clothing is described in this video put out by the Church:

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/temple-garments

 

You can see the clothing that is worn inside the Temple at the 2:09 mark.

 

Any other questions?

 

(lots more info on this page, including other ordinances)

Edited August 27, 2015 by cinepro

[halconero]

At the risk of sounding crass, I think the best thing to compare it to is a Sexual Relationship between a couple. The fact that it's there is no secret, the basic functions are the same (love, making children, physical fun), and the mechanics are largely similar across all who experience it. Yet even if one knows all the mechanics, functions, and the factuality of sex, it is not the same as experiencing it. The filming of sex, and the viewing of that film doesn't endow the viewer with the emotions, actual physical feelings, the sense of connection or the love that comes with it.

 

That's why I would explain to someone who had viewed the ceremony, or who hadn't but was asking me about it, that we go in, view a presentation account on the creation of the world, the fall of adam and eve, and their instruction by God and apostles. We are encouraged to make their experience symbolic of our own. We wear clothing reminiscent of Levitical priests, because we believe we're acting as they did in the temple. We make covenants with God to follow the Gospel of his Son, to honour our spousal obligations, and to use all that God has given us to further his mission. Finally we have a symbolic entrance into his presence, which is a room symbolic of heaven where we can meditate and pray. 

 

The covenants we make there have certain physical signs and sealings that are associated with everyday symbols of trust and fellowship. The reason I don't share them is because I believe that God has asked me to keep those symbols of friendship sacred and intimate between him and I. The reason I don't share them with you, or others is not because I'm scared about them, or that they're obscene. It's because they're a sacred trust, just like the intimate life between a husband and wife.

 

I know that married members on this board are probably having sex. They enjoy it, it binds them to their spouse, and its totally appropriate and sanctioned by God. I know the mechanics of it, the function it plays, and that it happens. However, I don't know the experience, and if they were to share details with me it would be a betrayal of trust and appropriateness with their spouse. Likewise, a full knowledge of the endowment isn't shared with non-members or even uninitiated members of our one faith just as my own dad didn't sit me down when I was eight and give me a full account of what happens during sexual intercourse. Instead, he sat me down and explained that mothers and fathers had a special hug that they performed naked, that showed each other they loved each other very much. It was only for adults, and sometimes that hug put a baby in the mother's belly, which is how I was made. He wasn't lying, but he also knew I wasn't prepared to know the details or experience of sex. As I got older and closer to the age where it's likely that I'll have sex at some point, I was taught more and more details to prepare me.

 

Even with all that instruction, there are some parts that cannot be taught, explained or would be appropriate to talk about with me before I've experience it myself. And that is something that will have to wait until I've undergone my own marriage/sealing ceremony.

[BCSpace]

What should the response be?

 

--Erik

 

 

My response has been to stay FAR away from "it's not secret, it's sacred".  The more accurate term is that it is "esoteric"; available to anyone who meets the requirements.

 

You can also give freely some details such as there is a re-telling of the creation story.  I also ask "When you saw it on youtube, wasn't it boring?".  Invariably the answer is "Yes". I follow-up by saying, "That's probably because you don't understand the doctrine behind it and have not made the commitments required to participate".

 

And the discussion flows from there, usually to the various underlying doctrines; nature of God, Plan of Salvation, laws of chastity and tithing, things most active members should be able to handle with relative ease.

[Five Solas]

There have been some here who offered to consider answering questions if you would post them.   What else is someone supposed to do?

And yet if I were to take them up on it, I'd be in violation of board rules & my posting privileges would almost certainly be revoked, perhaps permanently. 

 

That little fact makes such offers pretty funny, doesn't it rpn?  And so no--I won't be taking such bait, although one or two here might not be saddened by such an outcome were I to do so... 

;0)

 

--Erik

_____________________________________

 

"Number 3. You have the right to free speech

As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it"

--The Clash, "Know Your Rights"

 

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after you"

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Edited August 30, 2015 by Five Solas

[Russell C McGregor]

And yet if I were to take them up on it, I'd be in violation of board rules & my posting privileges would almost certainly be revoked, perhaps permanently. 

 

That little fact makes such offers pretty funny, doesn't it rpn?  And so no--I won't be taking such bait, although one or two here might not be saddened by such an outcome were I to do so... 

;0)

 

--Erik

_____________________________________

 

"Number 3. You have the right to free speech

As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it"

--The Clash, "Know Your Rights"

 

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after you"

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22

 

As vitally important as you seem to think you are to the board, Erik, that rule isn't really about you.  It's about establishing a level playing field where believing Latter-day Saints and others who have actual principles are not immediately at a disadvantage vis-a-vis those who have no functioning consciences at all.

 

And now that you know that, you have no reason to pretend otherwise any more.

[Five Solas]

 ...vis-a-vis those who have no functioning consciences at all.

...

Meaning me & anyone else who shares my worldview...

 

You have an unpleasant habit of demonizing those who disagree with you, Russell.  But pause & consider the fellow against whom you typed such words:  He's a husband and a father of three children, living in Seattle's University District neighborhood.  Committed to his family and his Christian faith.  He works hard and has significant responsibility (he couldn't cover a mortgage here if that weren't true).  His interest in Mormonism is due to the fact he spent most of his life in it and has a lot of extended family still involved in the LDS Church.  His interest is authentic--and this forum provides an opportunity to explore ideas and perspectives relevant to his circumstance.  And to occasionally make a pop-culture reference and/or attempt at humor. 

 

You can be better than this, Russell

 

--Erik

[Russell C McGregor]

Meaning me & anyone else who shares my worldview...

 

You have an unpleasant habit of demonizing those who disagree with you, Russell.  But pause & consider the fellow against whom you typed such words:  He's a husband and a father of three children, living in Seattle's University District neighborhood.  Committed to his family and his Christian faith.  He works hard and has significant responsibility (he couldn't cover a mortgage here if that weren't true).  His interest in Mormonism is due to the fact he spent most of his life in it and has a lot of extended family still involved in the LDS Church.  His interest is authentic--and this forum provides an opportunity to explore ideas and perspectives relevant to his circumstance.  And to occasionally make a pop-culture reference and/or attempt at humor. 

 

You can be better than this, Russell

 

--Erik

And you can probably do better than try a manipulative guilt trip in order to silence dissent and give yourself a series of uncontested layups.

That you seem to imagine that the reticence believing Latter-day Saints show towards sacred things is some kind of dodge, merely demonstrates that you don't understand us. So claiming all those years you spent in the Church as authority for your uninformed and facile arguments rings rather hollow.

Latter-day Saints maintain a sacred reticence towards the Temple and its ordinances because (1) we have principles, and (2) we understand what it means to hold something sacred. Clearly you don't understand one or the other (or both) of those things, otherwise you'd stop trying to taunt and goad and provoke us into casting pearls before... well, you know the rest.

[HappyJackWagon]

Latter-day Saints maintain a sacred reticence towards theand it Temple s ordinances because (1) we have principles, and (2) we understand what it means to hold something sacred. Clearly you don't understand one or the other (or both) of those things, otherwise you'd stop trying to taunt and goad and provoke us into casting pearls before... well, you know the rest.

I'm only aware of reason to be reticent about signs and tokens, about which we covenant not to disclose. Do we make covenant or are we commanded elsewhere that we shouldn't discuss other aspects of the temple? This is a serious question. I understnad the reticense for just a couple of things, but the rest I don't understand. Could you help educate me on why we can't discuss other things from temple worship, including the ordinances and covenants.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm only aware of reason to be reticent about signs and tokens, about which we covenant not to disclose. Do we make covenant or are we commanded elsewhere that we shouldn't discuss other aspects of the temple? This is a serious question. I understnad the reticense for just a couple of things, but the rest I don't understand. Could you help educate me on why we can't discuss other things from temple worship, including the ordinances and covenants.

 

There really are very few things that can't be discussed about the Temple outside of the Temple. What they mean to me is one of those things.

[KevinG]

Five Solas,

 

For detailed information or questions about the Temple you can go here:

 

https://www.lds.org/church/temples/why-we-build-temples?lang=eng and pay special attention to the scriptural links.

 

Or here for some FAQs

 

https://www.lds.org/church/temples/frequently-asked-questions?lang=eng

 

or visit your local Bishop and ask questions about the temple.  You may be able to go to a temple preparation course, but you will find it is largely a repeat of basic doctrines and covenants we make at Baptism.  Of course much of the actual temple ceremony is also a repeat of basic doctrines and covenants we make at baptism.

 

There are no traps here...  you can ask questions if you want but don't link sites that contain unauthorized information on the temple ceremony that the church has asked not to be published.

[Five Solas]

...and provoke us into casting pearls before... well, you know the rest.

yeah, it's swine, I get it.  whatever else may be said--you're certainly consistent, Russell. 

 

--Erik

___________________________________

 

"Don't go changing to try and please me"

--Billy Joel

[Russell C McGregor]

yeah, it's swine, I get it.  whatever else may be said--you're certainly consistent, Russell. 

 

--Erik

___________________________________

 

"Don't go changing to try and please me"

--Billy Joel

 

Hey, any time you want to stop trampling and rending:

___________________________________

"I'm on your side"

--Simon and Garfunkel

[Five Solas]

 

Hey, any time you want to stop trampling and rending:

___________________________________

"I'm on your side"

--Simon and Garfunkel

My wife's a big fan of Paul Simon.  (I'm more of a Bowie fan, myself.)  I'm not asking you to be on my side, Russell.  But I could do with a bit less personal invective.  The "reputation points" you get for it notwithstanding--it really doesn't help your cause with any non-partisan readers out there.  And it's pure distraction from any substantive dialogue. 

 

So how about it, could you ease up a bit? 

 

--Erik

[HappyJackWagon]

My wife's a big fan of Paul Simon.  (I'm more of a Bowie fan, myself.)  I'm not asking you to be on my side, Russell.  But I could do with a bit less personal invective.  The "reputation points" you get for it notwithstanding--it really doesn't help your cause with any non-partisan readers out there.  And it's pure distraction from any substantive dialogue. 

 

So how about it, could you ease up a bit? 

 

--Erik

It might be beneficial to realize that monkeys fling their poo and swine wallow in the mud. It would be silly to expect them not to. They're not really doing anything wrong, just acting like monkeys and swine.

[Ares]

Personal comments... don't do it!