The Church Publishes Image Of Joseph's Seer Stone

[Nevo]

Again, I think what makes people squeamish is the stone's connection to the less-savory activity of treasure-seeking for hire. Even Joseph Smith himself downplayed his activities in his official history, so it's not a surprise the church has followed suit for all these years.

 

"Enemies have suggested, and widely circulated the suggestion that Stoal employed Joseph because he was said to have a peepstone by which lost treasure could be located. The suggestion is of course based upon his claim of having had communications with heavenly beings."

 

— John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith: Seeker after Truth, Prophet of God (1951), 34.

[mrmarklin]

I think you're missing the main reason for the controversy. It's not that this stone is less believable than the other stones we had been told were key in translation. The controversy swirls around the intentionally inaccurate narrative. It's about losing trust in a church that intentionally teaches something they know isn't accurate. We can't be sure why they took this approach but it is clear they did. So without assigning motives we can at least see that the church knew the true method of translation but told a different story on purpose. Institutional honesty is at the heart of the controversy.

 

I agree with this.  I grew up in the church.  I'm 67 years old.  Never in any class that I remember was the translation of the Book of Mormon taught as being done by anything other than the Urim and Thummim.  All the illustrations in all the manuals and Ensigns I've ever seen (up until now) showed Joseph on one side of a curtain with the plates in front of him, and Oliver on the other side writing the translation.  Now it was also taught that others were involved, but there was never a mention of any hats or seer stones other than U&T.  These classes were Primary, Sunday School, Seminary and even at BYU.

 

Yes, there is a problem.

 

Of course the idea of any "Seer" stone according to our 21st Century sensibilities seems totally ridiculous when we have cell phones that can tell us just about anything we want to know with the push of a few buttons.

However, it's clear reading Church history that JS DID have possession of at least one Seer stone apart from the U&T.

[cinepro]

The odd thing about the Seer Stone is that it puts an odd relic of frontier "folk" superstition smack dab in the middle of the narrative of the Restoration.

For example, Church members can now ask themselves if they actually believe that Joseph Smith was able to use the Seer Stone for enhanced communication with God. And if so, do we also believe that President Monson could likewise do so? Would our feelings about the Church and President Monson change if he openly and casually admitted that he regularly used a Seer Stone to help receive revelations on behalf of the Chuch?

 

It also goes to show that while we like to say that subsequent Prophets have the same powers and gifts as Joseph Smith, it's obvious they really don't.  We may say that a future Prophet could sit down and dictate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon using the Seer Stone just as Joseph Smith did, but no one really expects it to ever happen.  We don't expect subsequent Prophets to regularly receive "thus saith the Lord" revelations on different matters (including the geography of ancient scriptural events).

[jkwilliams]

Your talking about a pretty small population of Mormons. Probably a few more will be troubled by this when they realize what they've thought their whole lives about the translation was different. But even more will glance over this and not care a bit.

 

I'm just talking about people I know who are upset about this. I agree that most people don't care, but the church ought to be concerned about the people who do.

[stemelbow]

I'm just talking about people I know who are upset about this. I agree that most people don't care, but the church ought to be concerned about the people who do.

Overall the Church is more concerned about adding to the list of people who care. "Keep 'em caring about "important" stuff and this will all go away" has seemed to be the mantra.

[jkwilliams]

Overall the Church is more concerned about adding to the list of people who care. "Keep 'em caring about "important" stuff and this will all go away" has seemed to be the mantra.

 

I would have thought they were interested in those who are leaving over these issues. Maybe I'm wrong. Ignoring people's concerns seems to be a really bad strategy.

[stemelbow]

I would have thought they were interested in those who are leaving over these issues. Maybe I'm wrong. Ignoring people's concerns seems to be a really bad strategy.

I'm not saying they aren't concerned about people who are leaving, just that they are more concerned that more people will be added to the list of leavers or those upset by it all.

Edited August 7, 2015 by stemelbow

[jkwilliams]

I'm not saying they aren't concerned about people who are leaving, just that they are more concerned that more people will be added to the list of leavers or those upset by it all.

 

I just find that a bit strange. 

[filovirus]

Last time I checked "perfecting the saints" it's just as important as "proclaiming the gospel". At least in my ward we put just as much emphasis on returning members to full activity no matter what their concerns may be.

[JAHS]

Treasure seekers used "peep stones". Joseph Smith had a "seer stone" which he perhaps unsuccesfully tried to use as a peep stone at first to find treasure. He of course found out later that it was in God's mind that he use it as a seer stone instead.

 

I am sure this has already been mentioned that the Bible says the faithful will all get their own stone:

 

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Rev 2:17)

 

 

From the D&C:

"Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word." ((D&C 130: 10-11)

 

So it's not like such a stone should be so weird to members if they have been reading their scriptures.

[why me]

That's the testimony it was based on? I figured it wouldn't say anything about seer stones or the Urim and Thummim... you know... since there are none in the drawing.

On page 22, I gave various links to show that the church did write about seer stones. However, there were also other ways the book was said to be translated and the one about just reading from the plates was stated by someone who also would have known. So, what are the artists to do? In fact, since Joseph did not make any comments about the process we are only left with what others have said.

 

My point was rather simple: the church in the past did claim the seer stones and the head in the hat. I also believe that members were better informed in the past. I believe that the information was also in the two popular books from the late 1970s. One by Arrington and the other by Hill.

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=8144

 

Many members read this book and it was widely spoken about by members. And of course, Arrington's book is a classic for its time:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Experience-HISTORY-LATTER-DAY/dp/0252062361

 

I  have said it before what has been lacking are scholarly books about the lds. These two books informed the lds about the things that critics today claimed were hidden. Of course, the newbies perhaps have not heard about these books at all but we old timers did and read them. Also, the church made the mistake of changing the direction of church publications. Gone were the history articles that were found in the past. And the members became somewhat ignorant. And new people joining did not get such material in the printed literature. But now it is being corrected, going back to the good old days.

Edited August 7, 2015 by why me

[Buckeye]

The odd thing about the Seer Stone is that it puts an odd relic of frontier "folk" superstition smack dab in the middle of the narrative of the Restoration.

For example, Church members can now ask themselves if they actually believe that Joseph Smith was able to use the Seer Stone for enhanced communication with God. And if so, do we also believe that President Monson could likewise do so? Would our feelings about the Church and President Monson change if he openly and casually admitted that he regularly used a Seer Stone to help receive revelations on behalf of the Chuch?

 

It also goes to show that while we like to say that subsequent Prophets have the same powers and gifts as Joseph Smith, it's obvious they really don't.  We may say that a future Prophet could sit down and dictate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon using the Seer Stone just as Joseph Smith did, but no one really expects it to ever happen.  We don't expect subsequent Prophets to regularly receive "thus saith the Lord" revelations on different matters (including the geography of ancient scriptural events).

 

This is an imprecise analogy, but in a lot of ways it seems that Joseph was like Donald Trump and the subsequent prophets like the rest of the republican field (Brigham would be Chris Christie). Joseph routinely made amazing factual statements and predictions (zelph, garden of eden, etc.) Modern leaders are certainly better at administering business affairs - and that is a virtue - but they're no Joseph.

[Buckeye]

Last time I checked "perfecting the saints" it's just as important as "proclaiming the gospel". At least in my ward we put just as much emphasis on returning members to full activity no matter what their concerns may be.

 

 

 

 

“After all that has been said, the greatest and most important duty is to preach the Gospel.” - J. Smith Jr.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-28?lang=eng

 

 

That said, you can also find quotes by leaders saying that many other church programs are "the most important." We all tend to get carried away some times. 

[Brian 2.0]

However, there were also other ways the book was said to be translated and the one about just reading from the plates was stated by someone who also would have known. 

 

I guess this is the account I was looking for.  The quote you said the artist used for his picture actually mentions the Urim and Thummin.  What is the account that just has JS just reading from the plates?

[carbon dioxide]

This is an imprecise analogy, but in a lot of ways it seems that Joseph was like Donald Trump and the subsequent prophets like the rest of the republican field (Brigham would be Chris Christie). Joseph routinely made amazing factual statements and predictions (zelph, garden of eden, etc.) Modern leaders are certainly better at administering business affairs - and that is a virtue - but they're no Joseph.

I understand your analogy with Donald Trump though using him probably not the best person to compare to.  Other apostles and prophets did so as well in addition to Joseph but not the same scale.  Perhaps things come in bunches.  The Book of Mormon has a lot of cool things with Nephi and his family but it skips through hundreds of years of time where very little really is written about until the last century before Christ comes to them.  Perhaps we are in a similar situation.  Lots of stuff happened with Joseph and a few others, we are in a more quiet period before we get really close to Christ coming again and then a whole bunch of cool things will be revealed and done. 

[carbon dioxide]

I have experienced very little encouragement from the Church to read anything but the Scriptures and the prescribed manuals.  I do not think the Church has been encouraging outside reading, in fact it is frequently condemned in classes as leading people astray.

We are supposed to study good books and things of all kinds.   The Church should not have to constantly encourage people to do it.  Today people just want to text and Facebook more than anything else. 

[carbon dioxide]

 

 

I believe there are a lot of members who are, and who will be surprised by the Seer stone article and pictures.  The reason being, it was never part of the church's translation narrative.  

I think the majority of members are well aware of Joseph using something in the translation process.  Whether he used the actual Urim and Thummin or a seer stone is not that big a deal.  The UT was not brought with Lehi and his family anyway to the Americas so why even think it was that?  For me, what is important is not whether he used the seer stone over the Nephite intepreters but the end product which is the Book of Mormon.  Does one have a testimony of the Book of Mormon?  Does the fact that he used the seer stone over the Nephite interpreters make a difference to the Book of Mormon itself?  I don't think so.

Edited August 7, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Gervin]

The October 2015 Ensign will include this:

 

 

Awesome.

The accompanying article doesn't say - and I'm not well read - but did Joseph Smith (Sr. or Jr.) ever claim to have found anything using a seer stone?

[Brian 2.0]

The accompanying article doesn't say - and I'm not well read - but did Joseph Smith (Sr. or Jr.) ever claim to have found anything using a seer stone?

 

Best I could find:

 

From Wikipiedia

Martin Harris said that Smith once found a pin in a pile of shavings with the aid of a stone.[4]

- Harris interview with Joel Tiffany, 1859, in Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 2: 303.

 

I'm not sure how impressive that is.  I mean I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my t-16 back home. They're not much bigger than 2 meters.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Brian 2.0

[ttribe]

Best I could find:

 

From Wikipiedia

Martin Harris said that Smith once found a pin in a pile of shavings with the aid of a stone.[4]

- Harris interview with Joel Tiffany, 1859, in Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 2: 303.

 

I'm not sure how impressive that is.  I mean I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my t-16 back home. They're not much bigger than 2 meters.

 

[theplains]

Has an LDS President in the last 150 years ever used this seer stone?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

[ttribe]

Has an LDS President in the last 150 years ever used this seer stone?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Brian 2.0]

Has an LDS President in the last 150 years ever used this seer stone?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Again, wikipedia, but with no footnote:

"Nevertheless, since the nineteenth century, no president of the church has openly used such a stone in his role as "prophet, seer, and revelator"."

 

Joseph Smith said that everyone should have their own stone anyway.  Every so often church leaders meet together to try and find their own seer stones.

 

[mapman]

The accompanying article doesn't say - and I'm not well read - but did Joseph Smith (Sr. or Jr.) ever claim to have found anything using a seer stone?

 

I'm not aware of any sources other than the Martin Harris story mentioned above. There are many stories of them never finding anything at all though, the most well known being when they didn't locate the Spanish mine that Josiah Stowell was looking for. I've no doubt that seers/scryers saw images when gazing at their seer stones, but they don't seem to have been much use in looking for money. Joseph was much more successful in receiving revelation through his experience with the seer stones than he was with finding treasure. In fact God told him to stop looking for money.

[Avatar4321]

That may be part of it, but I suspect some of those that are surprised by that fact the church even has the stone are probably also unaware of its other uses by Joseph. I know that I recently had a conversation with my BIL (member for over 40 years - returned missionary)  who was adamant that Joseph was not involved in treasure hunting.

So he never read Joseph smith history???