Popular Post Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 4, 2015 The October 2015 Ensign will include this: Awesome. 6
SmileyMcGee Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) So this raises the question....what has it been used for lately? Edited August 4, 2015 by SmileyMcGee
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I've always wondered if people believe Joseph could find lost items or hidden treasures with the seer stone.
CA Steve Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 So this begs the question....what has it been used for lately?I think you meant "raises the question".At any rate, the penalty for unauthorized use is death, so it probably has not been used for a while. 1
Mars Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Robin S Jensen's father is an acquaintance of mine. Very good guy. I hope the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree.
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I think you meant "raises the question".At any rate, the penalty for unauthorized use is death, so it probably has not been used for a while. A friend once gave me a book about the use of seer stones in the 19th century. I had no idea they were used so commonly for many years after the Saints relocated to Utah. Fascinating stuff. 1
Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 I've always wondered if people believe Joseph could find lost items or hidden treasures with the seer stone. Josiah Stowell believed in Joseph's abilities enough to pay to pay him. And while that dig did not locate any spanish silver, it did lead Joseph directly to Emma. So, while obviously not what you're driving at, I believe Joseph found a remarkable treasure through the seer stone. 2
snowflake Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I think you meant "raises the question".At any rate, the penalty for unauthorized use is death, so it probably has not been used for a while.Please elaborate on the "penalty for unauthorized use is death" please.......
CA Steve Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Doesn't the Church own a second stone used by Joseph? And, IIRC he used three different stones didn't he?
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Josiah Stowell believed in Joseph's abilities enough to pay to pay him. And while that dig did not locate any spanish silver, it did lead Joseph directly to Emma. So, while obviously not what you're driving at, I believe Joseph found a remarkable treasure through the seer stone. I'm just curious. I know one person on this board who believes Joseph had the gift of second sight and thus could and did use the seer stone to find lost or hidden items. Was wondering what others thought.
CA Steve Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Please elaborate on the "penalty for unauthorized use is death" please.......According to Mosiah 8:13 13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. 1
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Does anyone honestly believe that this stone had magical properties? Please, lets not discuss BoM historicity or origins, just focus on the stone itself and whether any actual metaphysical properties are inherently part of this stone or any other seer stones for that matter. I personally find it hard to believe being raised in these modern times, but I'm curious what others think.
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Does anyone honestly believe that this stone had magical properties? Please, lets not discuss BoM historicity or origins, just focus on the stone itself and whether any actual metaphysical properties are inherently part of this stone or any other seer stones for that matter. I personally find it hard to believe being raised in these modern times, but I'm curious what others think. If it did have specific supernatural properties, I would imagine we'd hear more about it being used.
Tacenda Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Sadly, no picture of the seerstone in the hat. Why wouldn't the church use this awesome opportunity? Once again the church history isn't complete. Wasn't an illustration done on Joseph translating using the hat recently? I will have to find the thread or reference but apparently the book is now on the shelves of the Deseret Bookstore but sealed in plastic. The author probably wants people to buy the book before seeing these pages, makes sense. But still the church should have had an illustration of this process, maybe commissioned someone to do the illustration for this significant article that was published in the Ensign.
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 If it did have specific supernatural properties, I would imagine we'd hear more about it being used. I'm sure Joseph, Oliver, David Whitmer, Brigham, all of these people believed that the stones did have magical properties. But do we believe this today? Does God imbue stones with magical properties, or is this just a product of the culture that these individuals were a part of?
Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 I'm just curious. I know one person on this board who believes Joseph had the gift of second sight and thus could and did use the seer stone to find lost or hidden items. Was wondering what others thought. I'm rather dubious that he had any such abilities. From what I've read, Joseph himself did not have as much faith in his abilities to find treasure as others - such as his father - placed in him. Now, I do believe that God works with us through means we understand. So it's possible that Joseph's folk magic beliefs had some function. But I don't believe the rock itself is different from any other rocks. It is a nice chocolate color, though. My kids would probably pick it up.
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I'm sure Joseph, Oliver, David Whitmer, Brigham, all of these people believed that the stones did have magical properties. But do we believe this today? Does God imbue stones with magical properties, or is this just a product of the culture that these individuals were a part of? I always thought of it as a product of that time and place, but I have been surprised to learn that some people believe Joseph could see lost or hidden items in the stone. I never would have imagined that.
Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 Sadly, no picture of the seerstone in the hat. Why wouldn't the church use this awesome opportunity? Once again the church history isn't complete. Wasn't an illustration done on Joseph translating using the hat recently? I will have to find the thread or reference but apparently the book is now on the shelves of the Deseret Bookstore but sealed in plastic. The author probably wants people to buy the book before seeing these pages, makes sense. But still the church should have had an illustration of this process, maybe commissioned someone to do the illustration for this significant article that was published in the Ensign. I noticed that too. Kind of odd to have an article that discloses so much, but then conclude with four artist renditions - none of which show the rock and hat translation. And yes, there was a thread on this board a few months ago about an artist who'd make paintings of just that. I think he was with BYU.
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Sadly, no picture of the seerstone in the hat. Why wouldn't the church use this awesome opportunity? Once again the church history isn't complete. Wasn't an illustration done on Joseph translating using the hat recently? I will have to find the thread or reference but apparently the book is now on the shelves of the Deseret Bookstore but sealed in plastic. The author probably wants people to buy the book before seeing these pages, makes sense. But still the church should have had an illustration of this process, maybe commissioned someone to do the illustration for this significant article that was published in the Ensign. I found this odd as well. Since the article specifically mentions that the artistic drawings are imaginative interpretations. It’s also unfortunate that the church would endorse these inaccurate artistic interpretations through publishing them in official church materials for all these years. I guess this is a baby step at transparency, but I too would have liked to see art that is more historically accurate represented in the article. 1
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I'm rather dubious that he had any such abilities. From what I've read, Joseph himself did not have as much faith in his abilities to find treasure as others - such as his father - placed in him. Now, I do believe that God works with us through means we understand. So it's possible that Joseph's folk magic beliefs had some function. But I don't believe the rock itself is different from any other rocks. It is a nice chocolate color, though. My kids would probably pick it up.I understand what you’re saying about God working through means we understand, and I believe this to some extent as well. But doesn’t this validate other means as equally legitimate avenues to taping into God’s will. Tarot cards, or smoke rings, or séances, or drugs. All kinds of cultures have different methods for communicating with God. Aren’t they equally valid then?
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) I always thought of it as a product of that time and place, but I have been surprised to learn that some people believe Joseph could see lost or hidden items in the stone. I never would have imagined that.Ok, if this was a product of time and place how is this not a problem for the narrative. If the stone was in actuality just a stone, and Joseph was imagining that this stone had special powers that allowed him to communicate with God, are we saying that God was really communicating with Joseph? Or was God just tricking him by making him think the stone had something to do with the divine communication? Many scriptural quotes point to stones having actual powers, so if this isn’t true, do you see a problem? Edited August 4, 2015 by hope_for_things
Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 I understand what you’re saying about God working through means we understand, and I believe this to some extent as well. But doesn’t this validate other means as equally legitimate avenues to taping into God’s will. Tarot cards, or smoke rings, or séances, or drugs. All kinds of cultures have different methods for communicating with God. Aren’t they equally valid then? That's up to God. To be honest, I can't say that he wouldn't work through tarot cards or peyote. However, I also believe that as people hearken to him they become more like him. So perhaps these avenues would fall away over time. And perhaps that is precisely what happened with Joseph.
jkwilliams Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Ok, if this was a product of time and place how is this not a problem for the narrative. If the stone was in actuality just a stone, and Joseph was imagining that this stone had special powers that allowed him to communicate with God, are we saying that God was really communicating with Joseph? Or was God just tricking him by making him think the stone had something to do with the divine communication? Many scriptural quotes point to stones having actual powers, so if this isn’t true, do you see a problem? It's not a problem for a cynical, nasty apostate like me.
Buckeye Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Ok, if this was a product of time and place how is this not a problem for the narrative. If the stone was in actuality just a stone, and Joseph was imagining that this stone had special powers that allowed him to communicate with God, are we saying that God was really communicating with Joseph? Or was God just tricking him by making him think the stone had something to do with the divine communication? Many scriptural quotes point to stones having actual powers, so if this isn’t true, do you see a problem? It's a problem if we take the scripture as literal truth. But if the scriptures are seen as filtered through fallen man, then there's a way out. But, of course, that means the scriptures are less reliable as a factual account. Edited August 4, 2015 by Buckeye 1
hope_for_things Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 It's not a problem for a cynical, nasty apostate like me. Seer stones were one of the first things to really shake me in my faith crisis. I guess I still haven’t fully reconciled how I feel about them. Personally I don’t believe these stones have any magical properties, but I’m not willing to dismiss that God was working with Joseph on some level I don’t fully comprehend. Just curious, but do you have a similar view?
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