The Church Publishes Image Of Joseph's Seer Stone

[hope_for_things]

Does consecrated oil have special healing powers? Is it the oil itself that heals? Or is it the act and ritual of applying that increases the faith of the recipient and person giving the blessing?

I once made a comparison between the oil and the stones in a class and it seemed to go down well.

 

I like this analogy to the oil, thanks.  Did a handkerchief have healing powers, or a cane or divining rods, etc.  All of those artifacts were part of the culture back them.  There is symbolism in the oil that I like better than those other artifacts though. 

[hope_for_things]

If those means are not authorized by God, why would they be validated?

 

I often compare this to the use of consecrated oil in administering blessings of healing by the power of the priesthood. There is no intrinsic property in the oil itself, but there is power in the act of consecrating it by virtue of the priesthood and using it in administering blessings of healing by that same virtue, because we are acting in the way God has commanded.

I like the oil analogy.  But your assumptions about a universalistic and God doesn’t make sense to me.  Some cultural myths are authorized while others aren’t?  

[Scott Lloyd]

Question then, in case you know. I have a copy of Sorensen's earliest texts, which includes the printers manuscript and the original (as much as remains). How does this project differ from that? Obviously there are now full color pictures available online. But substantively, does this reveal anything that wasn't already known through Sorensen's work?

I'm not acquainted with the Sorensen texts, but I can tell you that the printer's manuscript has long been in the custody of Community of Christ and has been carefully kept at their temple in Independence, Mo. It is only through their close cooperation that this publication has come to fruition. I spoke with my friend Lach Mackay, director of historic sites for C of C, and he had some interesting things to say about the cooperation that has transpired between the two churches over many years, including conservation of the manuscript by our Historical Department.

 

In the 1990s, I was in Independence to do some stories. There, I met Ron Romig, the archivist for the C of C (then still called the RLDS Church). He took me into the temple and showed me the printer's manuscript. I felt like I was seeing the holy grail.

 

Some years later, I was working on a story about the 150th anniversary of the publication of the Book of Mormon. I was working at home, sitting at my computer early in the morning. On the spur of the moment, the thought occurred that it would be nice to have a visual image of a page from the manuscript to illustrate my article. I shot off an email to Ron Romig to ask about it. Within minutes, I received a reply with a digital image attached and a note giving me permission to use it and waiving the customary fee.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Smac,

 

Would you have any problem if the Church published pictures like this?

 

No would you?

[Scott Lloyd]

So you can be seer without priesthood office? I guess the real question is this: If Joseph had been born in a different culture that embraced tarot cards or peyote, could God have worked through those things as he did with the stone? If so, then we're probably on the same page. If not, what's so special about a stone and not the cards/drugs? 

Spiritual gifts can be given to anyone on whom God is disposed to bestow them, including women and children.

 

I think the seer stone is special because it has scriptural precedent.

[smac97]

Ok, if this was a product of time and place how is this not a problem for the narrative.  If the stone was in actuality just a stone, and Joseph was imagining that this stone had special powers that allowed him to communicate with God, are we saying that God was really communicating with Joseph?  Or was God just tricking him by making him think the stone had something to do with the divine communication?   Many scriptural quotes point to stones having actual powers, so if this isn’t true, do you see a problem?

A few thoughts:

1. I believe that seerstones are physical objects imbued with divine power. They are not innately "spiritual" or "magical" (I find the latter term fairly problematic in discussions such as this).  Similarly, temples are sacred edifices / physical objects. Not because the materials used are innately special, but because of the Spirit which imbues them.  It is the consecration of physical objects which makes them significant, not the objects themselves.

2. I remember as a child watching realtime news coverage of a gunman who invaded the Washington D.C. Temple (here's a link to that story).  I remember feeling very upset, almost to the point of tears.  My father took me aside and asked what was wrong.  I told him that I was upset that the temple had been "ruined" by the invasion of the gunman.  He gently told me not to worry, that the temple would simply be re-dedicated, and that it's not the building itself that matters, but rather the Spirit of God that resides there, and that priesthood authority and divine consecration will always allow the Saints to maintain holy places.  

 

This was an important lesson for me.  Seer stones . . . temples . . . sacramental bread and water . . . the Liahona . . . all of these are physical/tangible objects made sacred by the Spirit.

 

3. I think the translation method used by Joseph Smith and involving a seer stone is susceptible to ridicule, perhaps more so than the idea of Joseph Smith reviewing the engravings on the Gold Plates.  Likewise, Joseph's use of the Urim and Thummim is susceptible to ridicule.  I think this is why some folks on this thread are disgruntled that the Church did not publish illustrations of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat.  Not because this illustration is necessary or important, but because such an officially-published illustration could/would be held up for ridicule.

 

4. Roger Nicholson wrote an excellent article on this subject in 2013 which was published in The Mormon Interpreter: "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation" (here's a link).

 

5. FAIR has an excellent round-up of resources about this topic: "Urim and Thummim and seer stones" (here's a link).

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited August 4, 2015 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

I like this analogy to the oil, thanks.  Did a handkerchief have healing powers, or a cane or divining rods, etc.  All of those artifacts were part of the culture back them.  There is symbolism in the oil that I like better than those other artifacts though. 

An earlier version of one of the revelations in the D&C makes reference to Oliver Cowdery having a "rod of nature." Some think this was a divining rod.

[smac97]

Smac,

 

Would you have any problem if the Church published pictures like this?

 

 

Nope.  I am taking exception to the faultfinding against the Church for failing to include such an illustration.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

I'm not sure how many people would believe the stone has magical properties although I think they would be more likely to accept the tradition of the urim and thummim which are other stones with magical properties.

 

If anything, I think the seer stone could be best equated to Dumbo's feather. It worked because he believed it worked.

Maybe Disney can make a BoM translation movie, I like where you are going with this line of thought!  

[mapman]

Here's another photo from the volume:

https://twitter.com/ByCommonConsent/status/628618435241447424/photo/1

 

http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2015/08/04/joseph-smith-papers-publication-of-the-printers-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon/

 

My first thought was, "That's a cool looking rock!"

Edited August 4, 2015 by mapman

[Zakuska]

I've always wondered if people believe Joseph could find lost items or hidden treasures with the seer stone. 

 

My G-G-Grandma Could.  Then she figured out she had the Gift of seership without the use of a stone.

 

My original Post on ZLMB about it:

 

MJ had what was called a "peepstone" that had been given to her by a lady friend who had found it when they were crossing the plains together and by some strange power she was enabled to see strange and amazing things in it. But always the things she saw would help people for the good and in beneficial ways.

Some people though said it was through the power of the evil one that she was "enable to see these things," but as she always used it for a good purpose she felt she was justified in using it. However she was finally advised by the Chruch Authorities not to use it anymore and not wishing to be disobedient to their requests she threw her "stone" away.

It was later found by one of the members of the family and was kept for years by the family as a keep sake. She however never used it again and none of the other members of the family were able to "see things in it."

But by throwing it away this did not stop her from "seeing things" and always for a good purpose and when she had followed the counsel of the Chruch Authorities by throwing the stone away, and she was still enabled to "see these things" without the use of it she then felt that it was a gift from God and the Peepstone had nothing to do with it. (See 1 Corinthians 12:1-13).

An example of this strange power of her being able to 'see things" is related in the following incident:

It was while she was living in Huntington, and after she had thrown her stone away, a family by the name of B____ lost their team of oxen and had hunted days for them but were unable to find them. Finally after hearing of this strange power MJ had "of seeing things", Mrs. B came to her and asked her if she would help them locating their oxens. But she told Mrs. B that she was afraid she couldn't help her as she had thrown her stone away.

Hopwever an hour or two after Mrs. B had left, MJ had been out in her garden hoeing and had grown tired and she went over and sat down in the children's swing and rested her head on the rope swing. She said she "must have dozed off to sleep, but anyway whether it was a dream or not, she said she saw those oxen as plain as day, and they were in a dense path of willows and they were both lying there dead".

She went to the house and her son H___ was there and she had him hitch up the team to the wagon and take her to get Mrs. B and they went right to the place that had been shown to her, and sure enough there they both where lying there dead just as she had seen them in her dream. And although they were both dead Mrs. B at least knew where they were and there was no need of them hunting any longer.

This was just an example of the many things that MJ saw (before as well as after throwing her stone away) and after complying with the request of the churhc authorities by throwing her stone away she was still enabled to "see these things", she then felt it was a gift from God and the "peep stone" had nothing to do with it. (See 1 Corinthians 12:1-13)

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/3810/Grant-H-Palmers-quotAn-Insiders-View-of-Mormon-Origins?page=5#.VcER-PlVhBc

Edited August 4, 2015 by Zakuska

[mapman]

Question then, in case you know. I have a copy of Sorensen's earliest texts, which includes the printers manuscript and the original (as much as remains). How does this project differ from that? Obviously there are now full color pictures available online. But substantively, does this reveal anything that wasn't already known through Sorensen's work?

I believe that you are referring to Royal Skousen, right? I haven't seen the volume yet, but I think it is the same as what Skousen has done in the past except for the introductory material and commentary by the JSP editors.

Edited August 4, 2015 by mapman

[Buckeye]

Maybe Disney can make a BoM translation movie, I like where you are going with this line of thought!  

 

I imagine this would be the Book of Mormon Musical II  Considering that south park has already lampooned the translation process, and the success of the musical, it wouldn't be much of stretch for them to do a second musical that retraces the historical roots of the church. 

[Buckeye]

I believe that you are referring to Royal Skousen, right? I haven't seen the volume yet, but I think it is the same as what Skousen has done in the past except for the introductory material and commentary by the JST editors.

 Yep, I'll fix my typo.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

3. I think the translation method used by Joseph Smith and involving a seer stone is susceptible to ridicule, perhaps more so than the idea of Joseph Smith reviewing the engravings on the Gold Plates.  Likewise, Joseph's use of the Urim and Thummim is susceptible to ridicule.  I think this is why some folks on this thread are disgruntled that the Church did not publish illustrations of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat.  Not because this illustration is necessary or important, but because such an officially-published illustration could/would be held up for ridicule.

It's a silly leap to say people are upset the church wasn't accurate in its portrayal of the BoM translation because they wanted more ways to ridicule it. Like I said and you agreed, use of the urim and thummim was just as likely to be ridiculed. But the church went with that narrative instead of the accurate one. Why? I can only guess that the church may have found the seer stone to be even MORE problematic because of its use in other, more worldly, treasure hunting endeavors. The seer stone is a reminder of JS's magical world view and treasure hunting activities whereas the U&T is a very similar story without the baggage.

[canard78]

It's not problematic. Joseph had the gift of seership, which obviously was quite enough.

At the risk of this getting habitual. I'm going to agree with Scott on this.

The stone didn't need any special qualities. It only needed to be something that Joseph had confidence in and that also Oliver, Martin etc could have trust and belief in. They (and others) clearly did.

Even if the stone was nothing more than a crutch or muse of sorts, it doesn't matter if the outcome was that Joseph was able to dictate with confidence and that his supporters were able to accept the dictation with the same confidence.

While I don't believe that any words appeared on the stone, I'm willing to accept that if Joseph was making (what he at least believed to be) an inspired dictation then having the stone was a perfectly legitimate method for him doing so in the cultural setting where he did it.

Three years ago the "head in hat" story was upsetting to me because it came as a shock. I couldn't understand how I'd never heard of it before and, at the time, bought into the "hidden history" critique. After a while I asked myself: "you were happy to believe in Joseph translating with the aid of a set of ancient American interpreters that he received from an angel... why is a stone in a hat any more of a stretch of credibility?"

[stemelbow]

That's not how I pictured it, but ok.

[hope_for_things]

A few thoughts:

1. I believe that seerstones are physical objects imbued with divine power. They are not innately "spiritual" or "magical" (I find the latter term fairly problematic in discussions such as this).  Similarly, temples are sacred edifices / physical objects. Not because the materials used are innately special, but because of the Spirit which imbues them.  It is the consecration of physical objects which makes them significant, not the objects themselves.

 

Do you think the brown seer stone, the same one used for treasure digging activities was dedicated at some point for BoM translation purposes?  In essence converting it into a sacred object.  Do you think of this stone as sacred, or just a stone?  

2. I remember as a child watching realtime news coverage of a gunman who invaded the Washington D.C. Temple (here's a link to that story).  I remember feeling very upset, almost to the point of tears.  My father took me aside and asked what was wrong.  I told him that I was upset that the temple had been "ruined" by the invasion of the gunman.  He gently told me not to worry, that the temple would simply be re-dedicated, and that it's not the building itself that matters, but rather the Spirit of God that resides there, and that priesthood authority and divine consecration will always allow the Saints to maintain holy places.  

 

This was an important lesson for me.  Seer stones . . . temples . . . sacramental bread and water . . . the Liahona . . . all of these are physical/tangible objects made sacred by the Spirit.

 

3. I think the translation method used by Joseph Smith and involving a seer stone is susceptible to ridicule, perhaps more so than the idea of Joseph Smith reviewing the engravings on the Gold Plates.  Likewise, Joseph's use of the Urim and Thummim is susceptible to ridicule.  I think this is why some folks on this thread are disgruntled that the Church did not publish illustrations of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat.  Not because this illustration is necessary or important, but because such an officially-published illustration could/would be held up for ridicule.

 

I think it’s subject to ridicule because of our culture and the fact that mainstream Christianity views magic as evil and inherently unchristian.  The church should still publish more accurate artistic representations regardless of ridicule that may come.  Honesty and transparency are more important than PR strategy.  

 

4. Roger Nicholson wrote an excellent article on this subject in 2013 which was published in The Mormon Interpreter: "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation" (here's a link).

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.  

 

5. FAIR has an excellent round-up of resources about this topic: "Urim and Thummim and seer stones" (here's a link).

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[mapman]

This wikipedia article says that scrying was sometimes a method of meditation:

 

One method of scrying using a crystal ball involves a self-induced trance. Initially, the medium serves as a focus for the attention, removing unwanted thoughts from the mind in the same way as a mantra. Once this stage is achieved, the scryer begins a free association with the perceived images suggested. The technique of deliberately looking for and declaring these initial images aloud, however trivial or irrelevant they may seem to the conscious mind, is done with the intent of deepening the trance state, in this trance the scryer hears his own disassociated voice affirming what is seen within the concentrated state in a kind of feedback loop. This process culminates in the achievement of a final and desired end stage in which rich visual images and dramatic stories seem to be projected within the medium itself, or directly within the mind's eye of the scryer, something like an inner movie. This process reputedly allows the scryer to "see" relevant events or images within the chosen medium.

It doesn't cite any sources though, so I don't know how accurate that is. But to me looking at a stone in a hat might be similar to meditation and other spiritual practices that are meant to focus the attention. Folding your arms, closing your eyes, and kneeling down to talk with God, fasting, dreaming, meditation, etc. all alter your state of mind to be better able to receive revelation. If this was how the seer stones worked for Joseph Smith (which is of course just speculation), then it would make sense that he later found that he didn't need the seer stones at all to receive revelation.

Also, looking at that stone, I have a hard time imagining that words or images could actually appear on the surface since it is opaque. More likely that images would appear in his mind while looking at the stone under dim light.

Edited August 4, 2015 by mapman

[cinepro]

Interestingly, in the story of Hiram Page as recounted in this presentation at a Sperry Symposium on the D&C, the use of the seer stone is called a "folk superstition":

 

 

"It began with a curious, small, flat stone that Hiram Page wore on a chain around his neck. He believed that the stone held special powers and used it to seek inspiration. Foolish as the practice may now seem, Hiram lived at a time when many devout Christians believed in the use of such objects as rocks and tree branches to divine hidden truths or to learn the will of God. Folk superstition supported Hiram's claim to have a spiritual gift that enabled him to use his stone for inspiration, causing some to comment on his supposed gifts.

"Hiram Page spent his early years learning folk medicine in preparation for a career as a physician. His travels took him to Fayette, New York, where he met the Peter Whitmer Sr. family. In November 1825 he married Peter's daughter Catherine and made his new home with the Whitmers. Through his association with the Whitmer family he met Oliver Cowdery and the Prophet Joseph Smith. Hiram became an avid supporter of the young Prophet and was invited to be one of the Eight Witnesses of the gold plates. For the rest of his life he testified that he had actually seen the plates from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

"Hiram learned of the Urim and Thummim and the part it played in the translation of the Book of Mormon. He knew that Joseph possessed a seerstone and used it in his prophetic calling. Hiram assumed that his own gift of seership, exercised through the stone he wore around his neck, was of divine origin. He continued to use his stone as a source of 'inspiration,' even after he joined the Church.

"Before the September 1830 conference of the Church, Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers became interested in Hiram's supposed spiritual gift and encouraged him to use his stone to seek information about Zion and the government of the Church. (Dennis A. Wright, The Doctrine and Covenants, a Book of Answers: The 25th Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium, ed. by Leon R. Hartshorn, Dennis A. Wright, and Craig J. Ostler,  [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1996], 86-87)

Edited August 4, 2015 by cinepro

[Zakuska]

Lets not forget D&C 130 in this discussion:

 

D&C 130 
6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;
7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

[Scott Lloyd]

I believe that you are referring to Royal Skousen, right? I haven't seen the volume yet, but I think it is the same as what Skousen has done in the past except for the introductory material and commentary by the JSP editors.

It's not the same.

 

This new publication has a page-for-page color photo reproduction of each page from the manuscript with a typescript transcription on each facing page. And there are annotations about the differing handwriting and edits, be they from Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery or one other scribe who is unknown.

 

It is my understanding this has never been done before.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[mapman]

It's not the same.

 

This new publication has a page-for-age color photo reproduction of each page from the manuscript with a typescript transcription on each facing page. And there are annotations about the differing handewriting and edit's be they from Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery or one other scribe who is unknown.

 

It is my understanding this has never been done before.

It's awesome what the church is doing with the JSP Project. I think I'm going to the BYU Store today, so I'll see if they have it there yet to take a look.

[hoo rider]

I like this analogy to the oil, thanks.  Did a handkerchief have healing powers, or a cane or divining rods, etc.  All of those artifacts were part of the culture back them.  There is symbolism in the oil that I like better than those other artifacts though. 

 

I can see the allure of the oil analogy, but the analogy doesn't seem very good to me.  Mosiah 8:13 tells us that if someone looks in the interpreters* that ought not, he should perish.  Misuse of consecrated oil (say for cooking or even unauthorized attempted healing) doesn't carry the same warning (and I don't think anyone would argue that unauthorized use of consecrated oil would bring any bad earthly consequences).  

 

It seems to me that if unauthorized person looking into the seer stone results in death, then there must be some special quality in the stone itself.  Otherwise, the unauthorized person's experience with the seer stone would be the same as with any ordinary stone.  

 

* Obviously I'm assuming that "the interpreters" referenced by Ammon carry the same properties as Joseph's seer stone.  It is possible that there is a difference between "the interpreters" used by a seer (as described by Ammon) and Joseph's seer stone.  

[Scott Lloyd]

It's awesome what the church is doing with the JSP Project. I think I'm going to the BYU Store today, so I'll see if they have it there yet to take a look.

It's already at Deseret Book. I priced it coming back. Two volumes at just under $90 each.