The Church Publishes Image Of Joseph's Seer Stone

[JLHPROF]

Does anyone honestly believe that this stone had magical properties?  Please, lets not discuss BoM historicity or origins, just focus on the stone itself and whether any actual metaphysical properties are inherently part of this stone or any other seer stones for that matter.  

 

I personally find it hard to believe being raised in these modern times, but I'm curious what others think.  

 

Magical is the wrong word, but yes, I absolutely believe it had metaphysical properties.  The spirit can be in an object just as easily as a living being.

[Scott Lloyd]

Magical is the wrong word, but yes, I absolutely believe it had metaphysical properties.  The spirit can be in an object just as easily as a living being.

Why would it need to have such properties any more than consecrated oil has inherent healing properties independent of a priesthood holder who uses it.

And no, the Spirit is not an object.

[JLHPROF]

Why would it need to have such properties any more than consecrated oil has inherent healing properties independent of a priesthood holder who uses it.

And no, the Spirit is not an object.

 

I didn't say the spirit was an object.  I said the spirit can be IN an object just as it can be in a person or in a place.

D&C tells us that sacred stones are a big part of Celestial life.  Why would it be so strange to have a temporal counterpart?  We have temporal counterparts to much of Celestial society.

 

And yes, consecrated oil has healing properties independent of priesthood blessings, at least in my opinion. 

 

I don't know why people are so resistant to the idea of a physical object having spiritual traits.  The gospel, scripture, and Church history are positively full of examples of physical objects with spiritual traits and uses.

The spirit is not something that belongs to people exclusively.

[Calm]

Total sidenote...

From the Ensign article:

"After Brigham Young died, one of his wives...."

[sunstoned]

Rick Grunder had this seer stone in his possession at one time and then sold it to a collector.

http://www.rickgrunder.com/HistoricalArchive/belchersmithdibble.htm

 

He says that it was given by Joseph Smith to Philo Dibble. I think I've seen another photo of this seer stone, but I can't find it right now.

The SL Trib article shows the stone as being polished and round:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2802019-155/mormon-church-to-release-more-documents

[mapman]

The SL Trib article shows the stone as being polished and round:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2802019-155/mormon-church-to-release-more-documents

Yeah, I was responding to JAHS's question about one of his other seer stones.

[mfbukowski]

Does anyone honestly believe that this stone had magical properties? Please, lets not discuss BoM historicity or origins, just focus on the stone itself and whether any actual metaphysical properties are inherently part of this stone or any other seer stones for that matter.

I personally find it hard to believe being raised in these modern times, but I'm curious what others think.

Please explain the placebo effect.

[mfbukowski]

It works if you think it does.

[JLHPROF]

Please explain the placebo effect.

 

It works if you think it does.

 

I think the challenge is many people only look at the "stone/rock" from a mortal point of view.

If we truly believe that there is more out there than our senses can see, why does this bother them so much?  I find nothing in the gospel that prevents a seer stone from existing and being used.

[JulieM]

Why did Joseph need a seer stone if God had preserved and provided him with the ancient translators to use for the translation of the gold plates?

And, is it true that the gold plates were not even present or used either (for much of the translation)?

I'd love to know the truth here and your opinions too. Thanks!

Edited August 5, 2015 by JulieM

[Sevenbak]

[carbon dioxide]

God can use whatever he wants to fulfill a purpose.  Using a stone to help in the translation process is more far fetched than God using a Hebrew speaking donkey or getting water from a rock.  If people have a problem with stones, they might not like the white stones the righteous get in the resurrection.  I am sure those stones are have more function than just throwing them into a celestial pond to see how many times they skip.

Edited August 5, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

Why did Joseph need a seer stone if God had preserved and provided him with the ancient translators to use for the translation of the gold plates?

And, is it true that the gold plates were not even present or used either (for much of the translation)?

I'd love to know the truth here and your opinions too. Thanks!

I think the Nephite translators were taken from Joseph after Martin Harris loss the 116 pages I don't think he got them back.

[Sevenbak]

Joseph's use of the seer stone is no different than Joseph in Egypt using a silver cup to divine with.    Since we know that ancient Joseph used it to divine, and we know that divination was prohibited, it's a simple case of the law of opposition in all things.  Some things are sanctioned by the Lord, others are mimicked and counterfeited by evil.

 

I believe Orson Pratt had it right on this one.

 

"The "silver cup" which Joseph in Egypt commanded the steward to put in Benjamin's sack, in order to try his brethren, was, most probably, sanctified as a Urim and Thummim to Joseph. Hence, Joseph commanded the stewart to pursue his brethren, and say to them, "Is not this in which my Lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth?" And when Joseph's brethren were brought back, he said unto them, "What deed is this that ye have done? Wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?" (Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, compiled by N. B. Lundwall, page 589)"

[JLHPROF]

Why did Joseph need a seer stone if God had preserved and provided him with the ancient translators to use for the translation of the gold plates?

And, is it true that the gold plates were not even present or used either (for much of the translation)?

I'd love to know the truth here and your opinions too. Thanks!

 

The "ancient translators" were really seer stones in a holder too.  Not really all that different.

Now why did he use both?  No idea, but since they were both seer stones what difference does it make to us?

Remember D&C 130:8-10

8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 

And Joseph taught that everyone is entitled to a seer stone for personal use.

My opinion (and it is just that) is that "seer stones" are the lesser degree version.   Perfected celestial versions are Urim and Thummim (which is sometimes translated as lights and perfections.  In my opinion seer stones are less perfect versions.

[JulieM]

Thanks JLHPROF for the information! That's all so interesting to read.

Do we have any descriptions of the Urim and Thummim that state they held seer stones? I have only read that they held spectacles. Do you think they're the same thing here?

Also, I thought Joseph used the same stone that he'd used in his youth and older in his treasure seeking. How then could it have come from the ancient interpreters?

[JAHS]

Does anyone honestly believe that this stone had magical properties?  Please, lets not discuss BoM historicity or origins, just focus on the stone itself and whether any actual metaphysical properties are inherently part of this stone or any other seer stones for that matter.  

 

I personally find it hard to believe being raised in these modern times, but I'm curious what others think.  

 

The seer stone itself is nothing more than any other stone that one might find in the ground, but that God decided to use as a device for a mortal prophet to receive revelation. It worked by faith like the Liahona, or like the rod Moses had, which was a simple staff of wood, which God decided to use as a conduit for His power to be made manifest. Otherwise they are completely inanimate non-supernatural objects, which would not be useful to anyone but the prophet.

Edited August 5, 2015 by JAHS

[JLHPROF]

Thanks JLHPROF for the information! That's all so interesting to read.

Do we have any descriptions of the Urim and Thummim that state they held seer stones? I have only read that they held spectacles. Do you think they're the same thing here?

Also, I thought Joseph used the same stone that he'd used in his youth and older in his treasure seeking. How then could it have come from the ancient interpreters?

 

Joseph Smith History 1:35 -  Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

 

Joseph had several seer stones, and the U&T contained two seer stones in addition to the other ones (2?) Joseph possessed.

[JulieM]

That's all so interesting. Thanks for the answers and help!

So do you think this stone pictured is a stone from the Urim and Thummim or one Joseph owned previously? Or is there no way to know?

[JLHPROF]

That's all so interesting. Thanks for the answers and help!

So do you think this stone pictured is a stone from the Urim and Thummim or one Joseph owned previously? Or is there no way to know?

 

It's one owned previously.  The Urim & Thummin was returned with the plates (was my understanding) and the stones in the U&T were described by Lucy Smith as "two smooth three-cornered diamonds."

This is a different stone.

[Sevenbak]

Do we have any descriptions of the Urim and Thummim that state they held seer stones? I have only read that they held spectacles. Do you think they're the same thing here?

 

Joseph's mother described them as "two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and fixed in bows that were connected like old fashioned spectacles."

Edited August 5, 2015 by Sevenbak

[omni]

I would welcome it as well as a challenge from the Church to those who think Joseph Smith made the BOM up. That challenge would be to stick your face in a hat and dictate almost word for word entire chapters of Isaiah that match the KJV without looking at the KJV at all with no do overs. Joseph Smith did it. Hard to copy from the KJV when the face is planted in a hat.

The only thing more unbelievable than that would be to translate verbatim several dozen Bible verses from ancient Hebrew via reformed Egyptian to Elizabethean English via an 1820's American man.

Orrrrr, maybe Joseph just had the BIble verses written down and when someone entered his home he quickly hid the paper or placed it in his hat. With OC "assisting" in the translation this really wouldn't have been difficult to accomplish.

[sunstoned]

Why did Joseph need a seer stone if God had preserved and provided him with the ancient translators to use for the translation of the gold plates?

And, is it true that the gold plates were not even present or used either (for much of the translation)?

I'd love to know the truth here and your opinions too. Thanks!

I have always wondered why go through all the effort to carry the the gold plates up to NY state and burry them if they were not used in the translation process. 

[why me]

It was described that way in 1880 by Frederick G. Mather. He got his information, he said, from "a number of aged persons now living in [the vicinity of Harmony, Pennsylvania]." I don't put a lot of credence in it. Joseph was a poor farmer and day-laborer. I find it hard to believe that he walked around in a white stovepipe hat in the 1820s.

This leaves the question about the size of the stone. The media reported that the stone is the size of an egg. And this was not a small bird egg. So, the question remains: how to put an egg sized stone in a hat, stick the head in, and translate. I am sure that most of the people posting in this thread viewed the stone as small...certainly not egg sized. I do think that more about the size will be important for the hat story. If the hat story is true, there is no way could he put his head in a hat, with a stone the size of an egg, which gave off bright light. My guess would be that the stone is not the size of an egg. However, the stone is either magnified for the photos or it is quite big.

[why me]

I have always wondered why go through all the effort to carry the the gold plates up to NY state and burry them if they were not used in the translation process. 

We need to remember that the plates would be valuable and joseph did have an idea about their monetary value for which he was chastized. Not to mention that people in the town wanted to get their hands on them and some of his acqaintances were hanging around when they heard about the plates. People have been murdered for less and have had their homes robbed too. They were also hidden under a cloth with emma present in the room.

 

And of course, we have joseph running around trying to hide the plates and fleeing from people who wish to get their hands on them with emma along for the ride. Why risk one's life for something that one made themselves for a vision of starting a church that may or may not succeed? I can think of easier ways to found a church.

Edited August 5, 2015 by why me