The Church Publishes Image Of Joseph's Seer Stone

[JAHS]

It does no such thing. It doesn't even mention Oliver's divining rod let alone "call it a cane." And no other reports make that identification either. For starters, a thin, flexible "sprout" used for water-witching would make a lousy cane, especially for someone as large as Brigham Young. Second, there's no indication that the two stories are talking about the same thing. Lund says Brigham used Oliver's "stick" to "point out" where the temple should be built, which is how divining rods are used: they point. The other story has Brigham striking the ground with a cane to mark the spot. An ordinary cane would do for that. What would be the point of slamming a divining rod into the ground? Finally, none of this really matters because both stories are incorrect. Wilford Woodruff's eyewitness account, recorded at the time, states that "Prest. Young waved his hands & said here is the forty Acres for the Temple" (Woodruff Journal, 28 July 1847).

 

So are you saying that Young might have used the "devining rod" to find the location of the temple and then struck the ground with his cane to mark the spot?

 

Here's all of what Woodruff said :

"We walked from the north camp to about the center between the two creeks (forks of City Creek), when President Young waved his hands and said: "Here is the forty acres for the temple (we had conversed upon the subject of the location of the temple previous to this), and the city can be laid out perfectly square north and south, east and west" (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, July 28 1847)

 

The fact that they "had conversed  upon the subject of the location of the temple previous to this", sounds like this hand waving event happened at a different time from when Young declared where the temple would be built. They may have first decided where ths forty acres should be (hand waving event) and then Young identified the exact spot for the temple with his cane.

Edited August 8, 2015 by JAHS

[ALarson]

 

So are you saying that Young might have used the "devining rod" to find the location of the temple and then struck the ground with his can to mark the spot?

 

President Hinckley held up Brigham Young's cane at the celebration of Brigham's 200th Birthday.  There was a photo with this statement: 

 

Church leaders and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir paid tribute to Brigham Young on his 200th birthday. Right: President Hinckley holds up Brigham Young’s cane, which in 1847 he used to mark the spot where the Salt Lake Temple would be built. 

 

 

Then combine that with Anthon H. Lund's statement (from his journal, July 5, 1901):

 "in the revelation to Oliver Cowdery in May 1829, Bro. [b. H.] Roberts said that the gift which the Lord says he has in his hand meant a stick which was like Aaron's Rod. It is said Bro. Phineas Young [brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdery and brother of Brigham Young] got it from him [Cowdery] and gave it to President Young who had it with him when he arrived in this [salt Lake] valley and that it was with that stick that he pointed out where the Temple should be built."

 

 

So, unless President Hinckley was incorrect or Anthon H. Lund was, it appears they were the same (Brigham's cane and Oliver's divining rod).

Edited August 8, 2015 by ALarson

[JAHS]

President Hinckley held up Brigham Young's cane at the celebration of Brigham's 200th Birthday.  There was a photo with this statement: 

 

 

Then combine that with Anthon H. Lund's statement (from his journal, July 5, 1901):

 

So, unless President Hinckley was incorrect or Anthon H. Lund was, it appears they were the same (Brigham's cane and Oliver's divining rod).

I guess the point of argument is that a divining rod that Oliver Cowdery had would not have been big enough to be used as a cane. Perhaps it was a big devining rod and Brigham used a straight part of it as a cane. In any case there appear to be conflicting reports on the subject.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nice strawman

Nice strawman

It's not a straw man. He's satirizing your obsession.

[canard78]

Then the seer stone is nothing other than a regular, smooth, oval, pretty, striped stone. Any stone would do.

I agree. It could have been an old stone. As long as the item helps to give either the individual or the audience confidence it really doesn't matter what it is.

And each prophet and "seer" would need his own, smooth and pretty, seer stone. As far as I know, no prophet since Joseph has used the stone to "see" with, or nothing they have been willing to proclaim, at least.

I don't see why any other prophet would need one. They will have their own rituals which give them a personal confidence. I think these days putting on a white shirt and tie to give a priesthood blessing is a similar act putting the stone in a hat. It serves no real purpose or benefit other than to get the individual into the right state of mind. If the priesthood holder really is receiving revelation and then the shirt and tie gives him the confidence and focus to listen to the source of revelation then the shirt really has worked. It has no sacred properties or role other than to put the person (and the recipient) into the right frame of mind.

Edited August 8, 2015 by canard78

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree. It could have been an old stone. As long as the item helps to give either the individual or the audience confidence it really doesn't matter what it is.

I don't see why any other prophet would need one. They will have their own rituals which give them a personal confidence. I think these days putting on a white shirt and tie to give a priesthood blessing is a similar act putting the stone in a hat. It serves no real purpose or benefit other than to get the individual into the right state of mind. If the priesthood holder really is receiving revelation and then the shirt and tie gives him the confidence and focus to listen to the source of revelation then the shirt really has worked. It has no sacred properties or role other than to put the person (and the recipient) into the right frame of mind.

Makes sense to me. (you're doing it again, Canard)

[Scott Lloyd]

I guess the point of argument is that a divining rod that Oliver Cowdery had would not have been big enough to be used as a cane. Perhaps it was a big devining rod and Brigham used a straight part of it as a cane. In any case there appear to be conflicting reports on the subject.

This thing is giving me the impression of two or more tales conflated into one.

I've never seen a divining rod thick or stout enough to be used as a man's cane. The notion strikes me as absurd.

Here is what to me seems a plausible scenario in theory:

Very soon after arriving in the Salt Lake Valley, Brigham Young and other Church/community leaders are engaged in the urgent work of planning a settlement. This includes surveying the land, planning public works projects, identifying water sources for farming and well-digging, etc.

As water dowsing was very much accepted back then (still is in some locales), Brigham Young or somebody else in the party has a divining rod. It could have been Oliver's rod of nature, or maybe not.

In the course of their work, Brigham takes occasion to unfold his vision of the future location of the Salt Lake Temple. He strikes the ground with his cane (not a divining rod) to mark the spot.

Accounts get garbled and conflated over time to what we have today. It strikes me as too flaky to rely verily heavily on it. I can see why it's not very well attested or confirmed.

Question: If Brigham had beheld in vision the location of the temple, why would he need a divining rod to identify the spot?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[JAHS]

This thing is giving me the impression of two or more tales conflated into one.

I've never seen a divining rod thick or stout enough to be used as a man's cane. The notion strikes me as absurd.

Here is what to me seems a plausible scenario in theory:

Very soon after arriving in the Salt Lake Valley, Brigham Young and other Church/community leaders are engaged in the urgent work of planning a settlement. This includes surveying the land, planning public works projects, identifying water sources for farming and well-digging, etc.

As water dowsing was very much accepted back then (still is in some locales), Brigham Young or somebody else in the party has a divining rod. It could have been Oliver's rod of nature, or maybe not.

In the course of their work, Brigham takes occasion to unfold his vision of the future location of the Salt Lake Temple. He strikes the ground with his cane (not a divining rod) to mark the spot.

Accounts get garbled and conflated over time to what we have today. It strikes me as too flaky to rely verily heavily on it. I can see why it's not very well attested or confirmed.

Question: If Brigham had beheld in vision the location of the temple, why would he need a divining rod to identify the spot?

It appears that the only source that I can find that the "stick" belonging to Cowdery was used to point the location of the Temple was the Lund reference. I can't find where Lund got his information. He served as Church historian from 1900 to 1920, so he may have gotten the idea from some other journal or document written before his time.  

However, the reference says:

 

"It is said Bro. Phineas Young [brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdery and brother of Brigham Young] got it from him [Cowdery] and gave it to President Young"

 

The phrase "it is said" is not a very definitive statement; sounds more like a rumor or folklore to me rather than coming from any reliable eye witness report. There's a very good chance that it is not true at all.  

 

D. Michael Quinn has included this in some of his writings; it might be helpful to ask him what he knows about it.

Edited August 9, 2015 by JAHS

[ALarson]

It appears that the only source that I can find that the "stick" belonging to Cowdery was used to point the location of the Temple was the Lund reference

I haven't done a real thorough search, but this is all that I have found too.  There was mention of 2 eye witnesses to the event, but then no names were given (from what little I've read so far).  It's too bad that Lund didn't give the source for his statement.  

[ALarson]

In my searching regarding the use of the divining rod (in early days of the church), I found some interesting information. 

 

Here is how Heber C. Kimball used his:

 

 

Sister Sarah M. Kimball wrote (emphasis mine):

At a Relief Society Meeting held Apr 28, 1842, I heard the Prophet Joseph make this statement. "While other leading men of the Church have been unrighteously aspiring, Heber C. Kimball has been true and is to me what John was to Jesus, my beloved disciple." 

Brother Kimball showed me a rod that the Lord through the Prophet Joseph had given to him

. He said that when he wanted to find out anything that was his right to know, all he had to do was to 

kneel down with the rod in his hand

, and that sometimes the Lord would answer his questions before he had time to ask them. My mother and my sister, Helen Mar, told me the same thing and added to it, that 

Pres. Young received a similar rod from the Lord at the same time

. They claimed that these rods were given to them because they were the only ones of the original Twelve who had not lifted up their heels against the Prophet.

Heber’s son added:

My mother and my sister, Helen Mar, told me the same thing and added to it, that President Young received a similar rod from the Lord at the same time.

Heber C. Kimball while in Nauvoo, after the martyrdom:

[H]

e went home and used the rod. I got a witness Elder 

[Willard]

 Richards would live–that we would overcome our enemies.

I inquired by the rod. It was said my family was well, that my wife would come to me in the east, and that Congress would not do anything for us

How did Heber inquire of the rod?

Heber C. Kimball clothes himself in endowment robes prays in the “True order” while holding a divining “rod” and asks yes-no questions.  Movement of the rod means “yes” and no movement means “no”

 (Entry June 6, 1844 recorded in 

Selected Chronology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1847

).

Kimball relied on the rod a lot. From his journal, 25 January, 1845:

The same evening I sat down in my house in the presence of my wife and inquired of the Lord by the rod as follows: If we should finish the temple–it was verily, yes. That my sins were forgiven and that I should overcome and get my appointment of my inheritance while in this probation. And that the temple committee were not enemies to the Twelve Apostles.

In the evening it was told me by the Lord–rod–that Congress of the United States would reject the Saints and would not admit us as a state government, and force their officer on us by their power.

 [Anderson, BYUS 24, no. 4, 531-532]

Edited August 9, 2015 by ALarson

[ALarson]

Here's more from Heber C. Kimball which is interesting (he writes of the use of his handkerchief, his cane and even his "old cloak" to heal the sick and how Joseph used his handkerchief to heal the sick and Dr. Richards also used his cane to heal).  

 

Also, how he has a cane made from the boxes which held the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum and that Brigham also has a cane made from these as well.  

Maybe this is the cane that Brigham used?

 

How much would you give for even a cane that Father Abraham had used? Or a coat or ring that the Savior had worn? The rough oak boxes in which the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum were brought from Carthage, were made into canes and other articles. I have a cane made from the plank of one of those boxes, so has brother Brigham and a great many others, and we prize them highly, and esteem them a great blessing. I want to carefully preserve my cane, and when I am done with it here, I shall hand it down to my heir, with instructions to him to do the same. And the day will come when there will be multitudes who will be healed and blessed through the instrumentality of those canes, and the devil cannot overcome those who have them, in consequence of their faith and confidence in the virtues connected with them.

If I had those relics of Abraham  and the Savior which I have mentioned, I would give a great deal for them. In England, when not in a situation to go, I have blessed my handkerchief, and asked God to sanctify it and fill it with life and power, and sent it to the sick, and hundreds have been healed by it; in like manner I have sent my cane. Dr. Richards used to lay his old black cane on a person's head, and that person has been healed through its instrumentality, by the power of God. I have known Joseph, hundreds of times, send his handkerchief to the sick, and they have been healed. There are persons in this congregation who have been healed by throwing my old cloak on their beds.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/4/53

 

 

Edited August 9, 2015 by ALarson

[JAHS]

 

Here's more from Heber C. Kimball which is interesting (he writes of the use of his handkerchief, his cane and even his "old cloak" to heal the sick and how Joseph used his handkerchief to heal the sick and Dr. Richards also used his cane to heal).  

 

Also, how he has a cane made from the boxes which held the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum and that Brigham also a cane made from these as well.  

Maybe this is the cane that Brigham used?

 

 

 

Interesting how the saints back then seemed to need some sort of physical object to effect a connection with the powers of God (stones, rods, canes, hankerchiefs, etc). Nice to see how we have been able to advance beyond the need for such things; although of course we still use olive oil and lay hands on people when we give blessings. 

[carbon dioxide]

The October 2015 Ensign will include this:

 

 

Awesome.

Here is my question.  It is the practice for the Church to publish editions of the Ensign several months in advance.  It is August not October

[Calm]

I assume you mean it is "not the practice"....

It was released early due to the related press conference.

I assume the September issue was already too close to completing to include it there. Or there may be something planned in October that it ties into.

[Robert F. Smith]

I understand what you’re saying about God working through means we understand, and I believe this to some extent as well.  But doesn’t this validate other means as equally legitimate avenues to taping into God’s will.  Tarot cards, or smoke rings, or séances, or drugs.  All kinds of cultures have different methods for communicating with God.  Aren’t they equally valid then?  

Not sure that everything is equally valid.  But one really has to come to grips with psephomancy in the Bible, such as Proverbs 17:8 ʼeben‑ḥēn, "stone‑of‑grace," which is a talisman employed by a man to bring success at every turn.  Trans­lations of this phrase vary: "magic‑stone" (NAB); "a charm" (NEB); "precious stone" (KJV), etc.  A related usage is ʼabnê-qōdeš, "talismans; holy-stones," in Lamentations 4:1.[1]

 

John Calvin described the properties of the OT Urim & Thummim as follows:

 

The Urim was a conspicuous stone in the priestly dress, brilliant with a certain extraordinary light as even the word itself, which means brilliance, makes known.  And this brightness of the stone was a sign of the prophecy to be received as necessity required, just as when God himself flashes in darkness in whom alone is all perfection and completeness.[2]

 

The late Jacob Milgrom recommended Victor Hurowitz’ “evidence from Starr (1990) for the Neo-Assyrian Šamas Anfrage is a fruitful source for understanding the modus operandi of the Urim and Thummim.”[3]

 

As H. Nibley has pointed out, something called Wr and Tm was worn around the neck of the Egyptian Wr-m3(w) "Great Seer (of On)."[4]  The Hebrew equi­valents,[5] אורים ותמים ‘wrym  wt-tmmym, usually given the sense of "Light(s) and Perfection(s)" -- but few specialists are willing to do more than speculate and compare cognate uses: Moshe Greenberg sees the oracles as a pair of "No" (curse) and "Yes" (whole­ness) lots,[6] perhaps like biblical purim, while Edward Robertson derives Greek arithmos, "number," from these names for the first and last letters (numbers) of the Hebrew alphabet א and ת as אור 'ur and תם tum.[7]

 

On Jewish use of the Urim and Thummim, see especially Ezra 2:63 (in deter­min­ing correct genealogies) and Neh 7:65; cf. also I. Mendelsohn in Interpret­er's Dic­tionary of the Bible, IV:739-740; M. Lichtenstein, L. Rabinowitz, and M. Greenberg in Encyclopaedia Judaica, XI:510-513, XVI:8-9.  It was first relegated to the use of Levi (Dt 33: 8 ), and later to the successive High Priests (Ex 28:30, Lev 8:8, Num 27:21).  The Rabbis claimed that the Urim & Thummim lapsed from use immediately after the Former Prophets (TB Sota, 48a; TJ Sota, 9:12), but Josephus, as a "priest," assumes a usage much later in time (Antiquities, III, 8, 9 [§218]; E. Robertson, "The Urim and Thummim: What Were They?" Vetus Testamentum, 14 [1964]:67-74).  See generally Cornelis Van Dam, The Urim and Thummim: A Means of Revelation in Ancient Israel (1997); Cornelius Houtman, “The Urim and Thummim: A New Suggestion,” VT, 40 (1990):229-232; and Victor Hurowitz, “True Light on Urim and Thummim,” JQR, 88/3-4 (1998):263-274.

 

Rabbi Nissim Wernick, in his BYU doctoral dissertation,[8] closely examined the various sources for the meaning and oracular use of Urim & Thummim.  He pointed out from the Talmud, for example, that the High Priest "who questioned the oracle was a man upon whom the Shechinah rested" (TB Yoma 73b),[9] the Shechinah being the Divine Presence or Holy Spiriit.

 

Abraham "had a precious stone suspended from his neck, and every sick that gazed upon it was immediately healed of his disease" (TB Baba Batra 16b).[10]  Of course the twelve stones in the breastplate of the Israelite High Priest have an analog in twelve precious tribal stones placed in the Ark of the Covenant by Kenaz (in a fragment of the lost Apocryphon or Apocalypse of Elijah 111i salvaged by Pseudo-Philo 26:9-15) which glow with a special light, and which are to remain concealed until the last days.[11]

 

As stated in the Qumran Scrolls:  "Give to Levi thy Thummim, and thy Urim to thy Pious One."  4Q175:14 (∥Deut 33:8 LXX)

 

[1] Cf. W. Horowitz and V. Hurowitz, “Urim and Thummim in Light of a Psephomancy Ritual from Assur (LKA 137),” JANES, 21 (1992), 97, from an August 1989 paper read to the 10^th World Congress of Jewish Studies in Jerusalem, online at  http://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/1992%2021/HorowitzHurowitz21.pdf .

[2] Cornelis Van Dam, The Urim and Thummim, 29, cited in B. Gardner, The Gift & Power (Kofford, 2011), 128 n. 21; cf. R. N. Holzapfel, D. M. Pike, and D. R. Seely, Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament (SLC: Deseret Book, 2009), 109.

[3] Hurowitz, Association of Jewish Studies Review, 19 (1994):230-231, citing J. Starr, “Queries to the Sun God: Divination and Politics in Sargonid Assyria,” State Archives of Assyria, IV (Helsinki Univ. Press, 1990).

[4] Nibley, Dialogue, 3/2:104;  Urk., IV, 1542, 16; the High Priest of Re' at Helio­polis, Gardiner, Ancient Egyptian Onomastica, I, 36*; II, 267*; Erman & Grapow, Wörterbuch der aegyptischen Sprache, I:329.

[5] Ex 28:30, Num 27:21, I Sam 14:41, 28:6, and Ezra 2:63 ∥Neh 7:65.

[6] Greenberg, Encyclopaedia Judaica, XVI:8-9; so John Tvedtnes in Scripta Hiero­solymitana, 28 (1982): 218-219, sug­gesting the two oracle-stones to be mere "Do's and Don't's" dice.

[7] Robertson, VT, 14:67-74, citing Hodayot 38:6,23, 52:29 (=1QH iv:6,23, xviii:29, for Qumran 'Or-Tom); cf. Lives of the Prophets 22:2, 23:2; Letter of Aristeas 97 (Charlesworth, OTP, II:398 n. g, cites Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, III:172).  See discussion in T. H. Gaster, Dead Sea Scriptures, 3^rd ed. (1976), 21, 549-550 (7), citing TB Berakot 17a.

[8] Wernick, "A Critical Analysis of the Book of Abraham in the Light of Extra-Canonical Jewish Writings," unpubl. Ph.D. dissertation (BYU, 1968), 92-108, on Urim & Thummim.

[9] Wernick, dissertation, 95.

[10] Wernick, dissertation, 96-97.

[11] J. H. Charlesworth, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, II (1985):338, citing II Baruch 6:4-10, IV Baruch 3:7-14, Assumption of Moses 1:17, II Maccabees 2:4-8, and Josephus, Antiquities, XVIII, 4, 1 (§ 85); see also Michael E. Stone & John Strugnell, trans. & eds., The Books of Elijah, Parts One & Two (1979), 46-49, for Pseudo-Philo, Biblical Antiquities, XXVI, 13.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Interesting how the saints back then seemed to need some sort of physical object to effect a connection with the powers of God (stones, rods, canes, hankerchiefs, etc). Nice to see how we have been able to advance beyond the need for such things; although of course we still use olive oil and lay hands on people when we give blessings. 

All very biblical.  See my post #515.

[Robert F. Smith]

 

So are you saying that Young might have used the "devining rod" to find the location of the temple and then struck the ground with his cane to mark the spot?

 

Here's all of what Woodruff said :

"We walked from the north camp to about the center between the two creeks (forks of City Creek), when President Young waved his hands and said: "Here is the forty acres for the temple (we had conversed upon the subject of the location of the temple previous to this), and the city can be laid out perfectly square north and south, east and west" (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, July 28 1847)

 

The fact that they "had conversed  upon the subject of the location of the temple previous to this", sounds like this hand waving event happened at a different time from when Young declared where the temple would be built. They may have first decided where ths forty acres should be (hand waving event) and then Young identified the exact spot for the temple with his cane.

 

See also the Journal History for that date (and see discussion and photos of such canes/rods by Val Brinkerhoff, [i have deleted the no longer working website, which even the Wayback Machine cannot recover for me just now, but stand by] ).   Cf. also H. C. Kimball in JD, IV (15 Mar 1857):294, and Orson Hyde in T&S, III/11 (1 Apr 1842):741b, on the power of such relics. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[JAHS]

See also the Journal History for that date (and see discussion and photos of such canes/rods by Val Brinkerhoff, [i have deleted the no longer working website, which even the Wayback Machine cannot recover for me just now, but stand by] ).   Cf. also H. C. Kimball in JD, IV (15 Mar 1857):294, and Orson Hyde in T&S, III/11 (1 Apr, but  1842):741b, on the power of such relics. 

I understand how biblical it all is, but I think it is the person and not the object that God works his miracles through. The object is just a prop to give the person a little more confidence; that what he is trying to do will actually happen. Like Linus who clings to a blanket that has the power to help him do wonderful things, even though it's really all him that is doing those things. 

[Robert F. Smith]

I understand how biblical it all is, but I think it is the person and not the object that God works his miracles through.

Could it not be a little of both?

 

The object is just a prop to give the person a little more confidence; that what he is trying to do will actually happen. Like Linus who clings to a blanket that has the power to help him do wonderful things, even though it's really all him that is doing those things. 

Not so sure of all that.  You certainly wouldn't say that of your SmartPhone, and the devices used sometimes did more than simply respond to one's second sight:

 

For example, commands would appear in writing on the Liahona itself from time to time (1 Nephi 16:26-27,29-30), and it worked via “the faith and diligence and heed” given to it (1 Nephi 16:28, Alma 37:40).  Like a magnetic compass, it was clearly more than inert rock or a pretty objet d'art.

[Scott Lloyd]

I assume you mean it is "not the practice"....

It was released early due to the related press conference.

I assume the September issue was already too close to completing to include it there. Or there may be something planned in October that it ties into.

calmoriah is spot on with this. The article was placed online to coincide with the news conference so that reporters could refer to it. And I'm certain, given the lag time, that the September issue had already gone to press.

[JAHS]

Could it not be a little of both?

 

Not so sure of all that.  You certainly wouldn't say that of your SmartPhone, and the devices used sometimes did more than simply respond to one's second sight:

 

For example, commands would appear in writing on the Liahona itself from time to time (1 Nephi 16:26-27,29-30), and it worked via “the faith and diligence and heed” given to it (1 Nephi 16:28, Alma 37:40).  Like a magnetic compass, it was clearly more than inert rock or a pretty objet d'art.

I wouldn't say that of my smartphone because it was made by man to do what it does.  Joseph Smith's seer stone was nothing more than a rock that he happen to find in the ground, but which God decided to allow Joseph to use as a means to help him effect translation, so long as he had faith that he could use it as such.   During his work on his Bible translation, Smith told Orson Pratt he had stopped using the stone because he had become acquainted with "the Spirit of Prophecy and Revelation" and no longer needed it. (Millennial Star 36 [1874]:498–99.).  It wasn't the stone, it was joseph Smith's faith and spirit of prophecy and revelation that made it posssible for him to translate. He could have done it all without the stone from the beginning.  

[HappyJackWagon]

calmoriah is spot on with this. The article was placed online to coincide with the news conference so that reporters could refer to it. And I'm certain, given the lag time, that the September issue had already gone to press.

Still, the lack of cordination and timing is strange.

[KevinG]

I always thought of it as a product of that time and place, but I have been surprised to learn that some people believe Joseph could see lost or hidden items in the stone. I never would have imagined that.

 

The next time someone says a quick prayer and asks the Holy Spirit to help them find lost car keys or cell phones, this should be at the top of their mind.

[Scott Lloyd]

Still, the lack of cordination and timing is strange.

Not so strange when you consider the lag time.

 

Things may have improved in recent years, but I once heard that the Church magazines have something like a six-month lag between production and print publication.

[Tsuzuki]

 

So if Joseph did have this gift, and apparently used it for non-religious purposes, would we assume other may have this gift?  How rare would this be?  Are modern day psychics equivalent to this... the "real" ones anyway?

 

I don't know, you'll have to talk to Tsuzuki

 

It's a skill that anyone can learn. You're basically using your scrying tool to tune out distractions to the point where you can directly access your unconscious mind. It's similar to sensory deprivation. It should be noted, however, that it is your own unconscious mind that is being accessed, and that may or may not reflect reality. In my own tradition, the greater part of scrying is skepticism.

 

Also, as I alluded to earlier, I wouldn't consider that rock a good scrying tool. It has too many of its own distractions on it. I suspect that Joseph Smith's hat was the real scrying tool. It's what I would have used instead of the rock, though my own personal preference would be a surface painted vantablack.