Gay Scout Leaders In Canada

[Freedom]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite. 

 

I personally don't like the cost, although I am quite pleased that my eldest son earned the highest honors in the program. Nevertheless, I suspect that a lot of members outside of the U.S. shake their head at the double standard. It seems that the rest of the world can do what they want, but the U.S. better pull the line or suddenly it becomes a problem. 

[carbon dioxide]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite. 

 

I personally don't like the cost, although I am quite pleased that my eldest son earned the highest honors in the program. Nevertheless, I suspect that a lot of members outside of the U.S. shake their head at the double standard. It seems that the rest of the world can do what they want, but the U.S. better pull the line or suddenly it becomes a problem. 

I think it has to do far more than possibility of a few gay leaders in an LDS troop.  I think the next push will be over the issue of what is called transgendered boys joining boy scouts.  Once Boy Scouts starts accepting girls to be part of Boy Scouts, it pretty much is all over.  I also think a push will come within scouting to start teaching the boys that the gay lifestyle is just as acceptable as the heterosexual lifestyle. Once political correctness enters into any organization. it beings to spiral downward.

[why me]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite. 

 

I personally don't like the cost, although I am quite pleased that my eldest son earned the highest honors in the program. Nevertheless, I suspect that a lot of members outside of the U.S. shake their head at the double standard. It seems that the rest of the world can do what they want, but the U.S. better pull the line or suddenly it becomes a problem. 

In a past page of this thread I mentioned the fact that in europe, there has been gay scout leaders in europe and the lds church did not protest. So, no surprise that in canada that it is the same. Canada has been very much influenced by european norms. However in the USA the influence has come from puritanism. Basically the puritan moral code has shaped much when it comes to sexual norms and understandings. And I am sure that in the US, the scouting program has also been influenced by puritanism when it first began and it has remained so up until now. In fact, one goal of US gay activists is to dismantle the puritan moral code when it comes to marriage between one man and one woman. And they have succeeded. in doing this. Not much left of puritan influence in the US nowadays when it comes to defining the moral fabric of the US. .

 

I am sure that the US scout organization has the greatest number of mormons young boys in it. And it is very much apart of church life in the US. And I have this strange feeling that gay US activists are much more vocal and in your face than in other parts of the world. This may also have something to do with it.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/are-americans-still-puritan.html?_r=0

 

This is a comparison with canadian students in this article.

Edited August 2, 2015 by why me

[Senator]

Wow, you've lived 10 years under the juggernaut?

 

..................and have survived?

 

How is that possible?

[Senator]

I think it has to do far more than possibility of a few gay leaders in an LDS troop.  I think the next push will be over the issue of what is called transgendered boys joining boy scouts.  Once Boy Scouts starts accepting girls to be part of Boy Scouts, it pretty much is all over.  I also think a push will come within scouting to start teaching the boys that the gay lifestyle is just as acceptable as the heterosexual lifestyle. Once political correctness enters into any organization. it beings to spiral downward.

These things appear not to be the case in Freedom's Canadian example.

[bluebell]

I wonder if part of the difference in the way the church approaches things in the U.S. and things in other countries is the difference in the legal system and the cultural push to be litigious in the U.S.?

 

You say it's been ten years with the church having no issues with being sued by anyone for not allowing gay leaders.  Is it far fetched to believe that the same thing could happen in the U.S. or does anyone think that a lawsuit would probably happen in the next couple?  

 

I'm not making any predictions but i personally wouldn't be surprised, just because of American culture and how people often use the law to force others to accept and support personal choices they don't agree with.

[bcuzbcuz]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite. 

 

Makes me proud to be a Canadian

[The Nehor]

Makes me proud to be a Canadian

 

Gotta cherish those rare moments when they come.

[provoman]

I think it has to do far more than possibility of a few gay leaders in an LDS troop.  I think the next push will be over the issue of what is called transgendered boys joining boy scouts.  Once Boy Scouts starts accepting girls to be part of Boy Scouts, it pretty much is all over.  I also think a push will come within scouting to start teaching the boys that the gay lifestyle is just as acceptable as the heterosexual lifestyle. Once political correctness enters into any organization. it beings to spiral downward.

 

"Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 years of age OR 13 years of age and have completed the eighth grade and under 21 years of age. Venturing's purpose is to provide positive experiences to help young people mature and to prepare them to become responsible and caring adults."

 

What was your concern about females and BSA?

[provoman]

I would there would be greater concern in Canada. Various in freedoms in the United States are much less a freedom in Canada.

[Freedom]

I think it has to do far more than possibility of a few gay leaders in an LDS troop.  I think the next push will be over the issue of what is called transgendered boys joining boy scouts.  Once Boy Scouts starts accepting girls to be part of Boy Scouts, it pretty much is all over.  I also think a push will come within scouting to start teaching the boys that the gay lifestyle is just as acceptable as the heterosexual lifestyle. Once political correctness enters into any organization. it beings to spiral downward.

Scouts Canada has always allowed girls to join. I know many members of the church who put their girls in scout groups because girl guides does not have its own charter and is just not functioning properly. I went to scout camps in the 1980's where many of the troops had girls, and these camps were sponsored by the church in many cases. But what of a transgender youth. If they can't joint scouts, and they can't go to young women's, then where do you propose they go?

[bcuzbcuz]

I would there would be greater concern in Canada. Various in freedoms in the United States are much less a freedom in Canada.

Sounds like you have specific issues in mind. Care to share? Which freedoms in the US are less in Canada? Are you also aware of freedoms in Canada that are not available in the US?

[canard78]

I wonder if part of the difference in the way the church approaches things in the U.S.

-SNIP-

 

 

It is incredibly clear to us non-Americans that the Mormon church's focuses and policies are, in large part, an outcome of or reaction to American culture and trends.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it really were a global church. It isn't. It's an American church with some non-American members. An American church with a heavy skew to the Wasatch front. 

[Storm Rider]

It is incredibly clear to us non-Americans that the Mormon church's focuses and policies are, in large part, an outcome of or reaction to American culture and trends.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it really were a global church. It isn't. It's an American church with some non-American members. An American church with a heavy skew to the Wasatch front. 

 

You have a world wide handle on that do you?  How often do you travel in South America?  Eastern Europe?  Western Europe? Middle East? Africa?   Asia?  Just curious how broad your perspective is when making such broad declarations.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Storm Rider

[why me]

It is incredibly clear to us non-Americans that the Mormon church's focuses and policies are, in large part, an outcome of or reaction to American culture and trends.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it really were a global church. It isn't. It's an American church with some non-American members. An American church with a heavy skew to the Wasatch front. 

The church headquarters are in the USA. And the church does have some strength in the USA. More so than in canada. The church has very members to influence the world. So, it must chose its battles on the home front. Also, I do think that the gay activist struggle has been more in your face in the USA. It is also a challenge to the christian foundation of the past, the puritans. However, the proclamation on the family is for all countries and for all families. It is a world wide proclamation. Now if canadian members wish to support gay marriage, fine. But the proclamation is the foundation for family life. It is up to the members to support it or not support it. Free will.

[carbon dioxide]

These things appear not to be the case in Freedom's Canadian example.

That is Canada.  We have more lawyers and screwed up people in America.

[carbon dioxide]

 

"Venturing is a youth development program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women who are 14 years of age OR 13 years of age and have completed the eighth grade and under 21 years of age. Venturing's purpose is to provide positive experiences to help young people mature and to prepare them to become responsible and caring adults."

 

What was your concern about females and BSA?

Same concern with having men join an all women's choir.  You can't have the Boy Scouts of America and allow girls in just as you can't have a woman's choir and allow men in. 

[Guest]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite. 

 

I personally don't like the cost, although I am quite pleased that my eldest son earned the highest honors in the program. Nevertheless, I suspect that a lot of members outside of the U.S. shake their head at the double standard. It seems that the rest of the world can do what they want, but the U.S. better pull the line or suddenly it becomes a problem.

Scout Leaders have been able to serve even if non-members. Now if the Church decides to only allow Church Members they could be seen as discriminating against Gay's specifically. It is time to get out of BSA, or find themselves subject to lawsuits...which will come as Gay groups are well funded and have vowed to go after anyone who dares limited their influence and power. It is time for the Church to break away, so they can do what is best for young men in the Church.

[Avatar4321]

I don't presume to know the best course of action for us to take here. But I trust the Lord will make His will known to us on the matter in coming days. I think we as a people should be praying for the Lord to reveal His will on the matter.

As for the comments of American centric church. Why wouldn't we be addressing American political issues in the united states. I'm sure the church deals with issues in other nations without much notice from us since we only get English speaking news.

[Freedom]

Scout Leaders have been able to serve even if non-members. Now if the Church decides to only allow Church Members they could be seen as discriminating against Gay's specifically. It is time to get out of BSA, or find themselves subject to lawsuits...which will come as Gay groups are well funded and have vowed to go after anyone who dares limited their influence and power. It is time for the Church to break away, so they can do what is best for young men in the Church.

No argument from me concerning breaking away. Just the cost alone has sold me. 

[why me]

Same concern with having men join an all women's choir.  You can't have the Boy Scouts of America and allow girls in just as you can't have a woman's choir and allow men in. 

What is a woman and what is a man? Is caitlyn jenner a man or a woman? Transgender men can now use the women's room for going to the toilet etc. And most likely a transgender boy will be able to join the girl scouts or use the girl's rest room. Such is what the direction of society has demanded. But the bigger question is: what does this do to the community as sexuality and its meaning change? And what about a transgender lds man? Can they be in relief society? Or should this man lose the priesthood when they announce that they are transgendered? See the problems for various communities as single issue activism goes amok or in uncontrolable ways?

Edited August 3, 2015 by why me

[carbon dioxide]

What is a woman and what is a man? Is caitlyn jenner a man or a woman? Transgender men can now use the women's room for going to the toilet etc. And most likely a transgender boy will be able to join the girl scouts or use the girl's rest room. Such is what the direction of society has demanded. But the bigger question is: what does this do to the community as sexuality and its meaning change? And what about a transgender lds man? Can they be in relief society? Or should this man lose the priesthood when they announce that they are transgendered? See the problems for various communities as single issue activism goes amok or in uncontrolable ways?

 Bruce Jenner is a man and will always be a man regardless of whether he puts on a dress, gets hormone therapy, and has his name legally changed.  Gender like race is something we can switch because we feel like it.  The only difference between Bruce Jenner and the normal average man is that it is Halloween is 365 days a year for Bruce.

[Tacenda]

Bruce Jenner is a man and will always be a man regardless of whether he puts on a dress, gets hormone therapy, and has his name legally changed. Gender like race is something we can switch because we feel like it. The only difference between Bruce Jenner and the normal average man is that it is Halloween is 365 days a year for Bruce.

Have you watched even one interview with him explaining his experience of what it's like to be transgendered?

[Sanpitch]

 Bruce Jenner is a man and will always be a man regardless of whether he puts on a dress, gets hormone therapy, and has his name legally changed.  Gender like race is something we can switch because we feel like it.  The only difference between Bruce Jenner and the normal average man is that it is Halloween is 365 days a year for Bruce.

 

I don't know about Jenner's body make up if you're so certain about the sex of a person where do you place those with both male and female organs that even doctors are not certain what sex they are?  Maybe  just bar them from everything just to be sure?

[mnn727]

And what about a transgender lds man? Can they be in relief society? Or should this man lose the priesthood when they announce that they are transgendered? 

Actually, they'd lose their membership I believe