Gay Scout Leaders In Canada

[mnn727]

I don't know about Jenner's body make up if you're so certain about the sex of a person where do you place those with both male and female organs that even doctors are not certain what sex they are?  Maybe  just bar them from everything just to be sure?

They either have a Y chromosome or they do not

[Gray]

It is incredibly clear to us non-Americans that the Mormon church's focuses and policies are, in large part, an outcome of or reaction to American culture and trends.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it really were a global church. It isn't. It's an American church with some non-American members. An American church with a heavy skew to the Wasatch front. 

 

Or to use business terms, the LDS Church started as a domestic church, and is now international, but has yet to become truly global. 

[Sanpitch]

They either have a Y chromosome or they do not

 

OK, they have the Y-chromosome but the body of a female, where are you going to assign them to.  I think the issue is complicated with no good answers.

[rockpond]

Same concern with having men join an all women's choir. You can't have the Boy Scouts of America and allow girls in just as you can't have a woman's choir and allow men in.

The BSA has allowed girls to register as Explorer and Venturer scouts for almost 45 years. They've allowed female leaders in the Cub program for even longer.

[bluebell]

I don't know about Jenner's body make up if you're so certain about the sex of a person where do you place those with both male and female organs that even doctors are not certain what sex they are?  Maybe  just bar them from everything just to be sure?

 

I believe you are referring to someone who is intersex (or a hermaphrodite)-someone with both female and male reproductive organs.  That's different than being transgendered which is how Jenner labels himself.

[rockpond]

The church seems quite concerned that BSA is now allowing openly gay scout leaders and is considering pulling out of the organization. Why was there no such concern raised with Scouts Canada? In fact, 10 years ago the church sent a general authority up here to tell everyone that we are very much committed to the program and that we must follow it and not to worry about what other groups do. It was at that time that Scouts Canada officially confirmed that openly gay leaders were welcome and in 2008 scout groups were participating in gay pride parades across the country. Now, suddenly because the BSA is allowing it the church feels that they must take action. In 10 years there has never been a challenge to our charter and the church never expressed any concern about it. In fact, on the contrary, they did the opposite.

I personally don't like the cost, although I am quite pleased that my eldest son earned the highest honors in the program. Nevertheless, I suspect that a lot of members outside of the U.S. shake their head at the double standard. It seems that the rest of the world can do what they want, but the U.S. better pull the line or suddenly it becomes a problem.

Shouldn't be a surprise. The Church's statement after last Monday's vote showed how amerocentric and male-oriented the Church can be:

"As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available."

They seem to be unaware the scouting is available all over the world. And they seem to be unaware that "fully one-half" of our youth don't have access to scouting because Church policy keeps girls out.

Then again, whoever wrote it wa also so clueless (or revisionist) that they thought we had always welcomed boys into scouting regardless of their sexual orientation.

[Jeanne]

 Bruce Jenner is a man and will always be a man regardless of whether he puts on a dress, gets hormone therapy, and has his name legally changed.  Gender like race is something we can switch because we feel like it.  The only difference between Bruce Jenner and the normal average man is that it is Halloween is 365 days a year for Bruce.

You are entitled to your opinion.  But this is so not cool...

[HappyJackWagon]

 

canard78, on 02 Aug 2015 - 4:40 PM, said:

It is incredibly clear to us non-Americans that the Mormon church's focuses and policies are, in large part, an outcome of or reaction to American culture and trends.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if it really were a global church. It isn't. It's an American church with some non-American members. An American church with a heavy skew to the Wasatch front. 

 

Storm Rider- You have a world wide handle on that do you?  How often do you travel in South America?  Eastern Europe?  Western Europe? Middle East? Africa?   Asia?  Just curious how broad your perspective is when making such broad declarations.

 

Edited by Storm Rider, 18 hours ago.

Storm Rider, Are you arguing that the church is NOT Americentric? Or Utahcentric? Interesting.

[bluebell]

You are entitled to your opinion.  But this is so not cool...

 

What is 'so not cool' about believing that you can dress like a different gender, and even surgically alter yourself to have the body parts of a different gender, but that doesn't mean you are actually that gender?

 

No one who sees those people who get snake skin tattooed all over their bodies and plastic horns implanted under their skin believes that that's makes them a lizard.  

 

I have a lot of sympathy for transgendered people and i don't believe they are evil or anything like that.  But, it's pretty basic-clothes and surgery do not change your gender. 

[Sanpitch]

I believe you are referring to someone who is intersex (or a hermaphrodite)-someone with both female and male reproductive organs.  That's different than being transgendered which is how Jenner labels himself.

 

Yes, hermaphrodite, where do they fit into the picture, especially with the church?

[bluebell]

Yes, hermaphrodite, where do they fit into the picture, especially with the church?

 

I honestly have no idea.  It would be interesting to find out.

[provoman]

Same concern with having men join an all women's choir.  You can't have the Boy Scouts of America and allow girls in just as you can't have a woman's choir and allow men in. 

 

I am not understanding. BSA permits females, therefore it isn't BSA?

[halconero]

I would hope that people here understand that people who are transgendered experience gender dysphoria, a mental pathology which has not just psychological or behavioural causes, but genetic and neurological as well.

Rather than stigmatizing the individual through comments such as them playing "Halloween" or "dress up" maybe we should seek to understand them as they understand themselves. We speak of standards which need defending, but should remember that the highest standard is the Love of Christ. This is the love which shows compassion, empathy, and seeks to understand the pain someone goes through.

So, whatever your thoughts on the BSA, their inclusion of either gay individuals or transgendered, let's maintain some civility. To demean the individual rather than build them is utterly Satanic.

[Mormonmaniac]

I am bothered by the whole transgender thing. Forgive me for any ignorance on my part but it really, truly, seems that transgender is just another immoral sidetrack people take due to the sinful nature of our society.

[Sanpitch]

I am bothered by the whole transgender thing. Forgive me for any ignorance on my part but it really, truly, seems that transgender is just another immoral sidetrack people take due to the sinful nature of our society.

 

You could be right.  Some faithful Christians know much more about the situation than those directly involved.

[carbon dioxide]

Have you watched even one interview with him explaining his experience of what it's like to be transgendered?

I am sure he struggles with things and I am sympathetic to that part of it but at the end of the day, gender is what we are and we can't it anymore than we can change our race.  I can really believe that I am a black guy.  I can dress the part, listen to the popular music that is common among blacks, and everything else but at the end of the day, I am still a white guy who can't jump very high. 

[carbon dioxide]

You are entitled to your opinion.  But this is so not cool...

I think my opinion is validated by common sense and science.  Let me ask you this.  What gender is are my two dogs.  If gender is simply what we feel we are and what we identify as, that would be true for other mammals like dogs.  What should I do to find out what the gender of my two dogs are?  Help me out with this.  Also if Bruce Jenner really is a woman, than who is the father of those kids he had since a woman can not be a father.

 

If I sound mean and all that it is because on this issue this really gets under my skin.  I can deal with the gay issue ok but when the media tries to push on society that our gender is what we identify ourselves as and not what we actually are, to me that is about the same kind of lie as someone saying that 1 + 1 = 3.  If we truly believe it is 3, then it is 3.  I will forever say NO.  It does not matter what a person feels. 1 +1 =2 and no amount of social engineering can change it.

Edited August 4, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Mormonmaniac]

I think my opinion is validated by common sense and science.  Let me ask you this.  What gender is are my two dogs.  If gender is simply what we feel we are and what we identify as, that would be true for other mammals like dogs.  What should I do to find out what the gender of my two dogs are?  Help me out with this.  Also if Bruce Jenner really is a woman, than who is the father of those kids he had since a woman can not be a father.

 

If I sound mean and all that it is because on this issue this really gets under my skin.  I can deal with the gay issue ok but when the media tries to push on society that our gender is what we identify ourselves as and not what we actually are, to me that is about the same kind of lie as someone saying that 1 + 1 = 3.  If we truly believe it is 3, then it is 3.  I will forever say NO.  It does not matter what a person feels. 1 +1 =2 and no amount of social engineering can change it.

I heard a podcast about this the other day. I need to find it and post a link. He spoke about this very thing and made some good points.

[why me]

Shouldn't be a surprise. The Church's statement after last Monday's vote showed how amerocentric and male-oriented the Church can be:

"As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available."

They seem to be unaware the scouting is available all over the world. And they seem to be unaware that "fully one-half" of our youth don't have access to scouting because Church policy keeps girls out.

Then again, whoever wrote it wa also so clueless (or revisionist) that they thought we had always welcomed boys into scouting regardless of their sexual orientation.

The church's homebase is the USA and like most organizations or churches, the homebase is a focul point. No different from the catholic church whose homebase is the vatican and to a larger extent Italy. Any changes in the homebase,whether it is abortion laws or scouting becomes more personal. Scouting is basically an US organization that has been exported abroad. But like many international organizations it must conform to the laws of that country it is operating in. The church has very little influence in countries where membership is low.

 

What happened to the girls' scouting program. I do remember girl scout cookies. I think that it is a good thing that the sexes are separated in scouting. Both boys and girls need to be with their own sex, without the pressure of the other sex being present. There can be more relaxation when sexuality is not involved. Many boys in the past did not know that they were gay or straight. True, there may be attractions and the wondering of what was going on, but in the past both boys and girls were rather innocent when it came to sex and sexuality. I was raised on leave it to beaver, father knows best, Gullligan Island, I Love Lucy, Lassie, Hazel etc. Obsolutely no sexuality in those shows. For me, it was baseball, basketball, stickball, etc with the boys. No one spoke about girls except about the tomboy in the group.

 

Much different now. Sexuality is very much a part of a young person's life. It is all incompassing in the media. In fact one can say that coed scouting programs or coed programs etc, can create more sexual tension between the boys and the girls. And cause girls to doll up more and boys to act more on their sexuality. No different for gay and lesbian young men and women.

 

The male oriented church is actually a priesthood oriented church. No different from many other faiths such as the catholic, greek orthodox, russian orthodox chuches etc.

[Kenngo1969]

... The only difference between Bruce Jenner and the normal average man is that it is Halloween is 365 days a year for Bruce.

[Kenngo1969]

...  I can really believe that I am a black guy.  I can dress the part, listen to the popular music that is common among blacks, and everything else but at the end of the day, I am still a white guy who can't jump very high. 

Can you dance?

 

 

Sorry.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Kenngo1969